Welcome, Guest
You have to register before you can post on our site.

Username
  

Password
  





Search Forums

(Advanced Search)

Forum Statistics
» Members: 640
» Latest member: Eafshani
» Forum threads: 4,884
» Forum posts: 86,834

Full Statistics

Online Users
There are currently 621 online users.
» 1 Member(s) | 617 Guest(s)
Applebot, DuckDuckGo, Google, RJNorton

Latest Threads
Clara Harris"She Sat Besi...
Forum: Assassination
Last Post: Linda Anderson
12 minutes ago
» Replies: 1
» Views: 7
Extra Credit Questions
Forum: Trivia Questions - all things Lincoln
Last Post: RJNorton
Yesterday, 11:51 AM
» Replies: 4,832
» Views: 8,827,993
Wyoming Lincoln Monmument...
Forum: Abraham Lincoln's Legacy
Last Post: J. Beckert
Yesterday, 11:16 AM
» Replies: 2
» Views: 73
Mary Lincoln's 51 days in...
Forum: Mary Lincoln and the Boys
Last Post: STS Lincolnite
Yesterday, 10:04 AM
» Replies: 2
» Views: 238
Who is this person?
Forum: Trivia Questions - all things Lincoln
Last Post: RJNorton
08-08-2026, 08:13 PM
» Replies: 2,212
» Views: 5,590,285
Lincoln's valet William J...
Forum: Abraham Lincoln - The White House Years
Last Post: David Lockmiller
07-26-2026, 07:02 PM
» Replies: 1
» Views: 507
Laura Redden - Booth's Mi...
Forum: Assassination
Last Post: Dave Taylor
07-13-2026, 06:00 PM
» Replies: 3
» Views: 1,235
Lincoln's deathbed in col...
Forum: Assassination
Last Post: Gene C
07-11-2026, 07:03 AM
» Replies: 1
» Views: 680
Where Is It?
Forum: Trivia Questions - all things Lincoln
Last Post: Steve
07-08-2026, 01:21 PM
» Replies: 235
» Views: 538,104
Happy 4th of July!
Forum: News and Announcements
Last Post: J. Beckert
07-05-2026, 08:19 PM
» Replies: 6
» Views: 6,195

 
  Lincoln and 'The People vs Harrison'
Posted by: Gene C - 01-21-2017, 11:21 AM - Forum: Abraham Lincoln before his Presidency - Replies (2)

Here is an interesting article about Lincoln defending a young man named Peachy Quinn Harrison against a charge of murder

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/02/10/nyregi...story.html

A more detailed account
http://apps.americanbar.org/litigation/c...rison.html

Print this item

  Lincoln's birthday
Posted by: Steve - 01-11-2017, 12:44 AM - Forum: Abraham Lincoln before his Presidency - Replies (58)

Is there any known early documentation of Abraham Lincoln's February 12, 1809 birth date or the birth date of his sister? Say, from either the extended Lincoln or Hanks famlilies? I'm aware of Lincoln giving his birthday at the start of his political career and the birth dates written in the Lincoln family bible (although those were written in Abraham Lincoln's own hand). Is there any documention that's earlier? The Lincolns were Baptists, so there wouldn't be any infant baptism records, and I doubt there would be any newspaper birth notices for that area of Kentucky at that time. I'm just wondering if there's any documention earlier than four decades after the fact.

Print this item

  Lincoln speech on the Bible?
Posted by: Rob Wick - 01-05-2017, 08:56 PM - Forum: Abraham Lincoln before his Presidency - Replies (34)

My research of late has been focused on William E. Barton and how he related to Ida Tarbell's work. In addition to going through some of his papers in the University of Chicago collection, I've been reading his correspondence with the Bobbs-Merrill Company of Indianapolis, who published the majority of Barton's later books, including his two-volume Life of Abraham Lincoln.

In going through newspaper articles, I came across an article about the discovery of James Smith's The Christian's Defence and how it was said to have influenced Lincoln. What struck me was the closing paragraph of the article, which states "Two years later Lincoln delivered a lecture on the Bible in Smith's church which was said by ministers to be the ablest defense of the Bible ever heard in that pulpit." This is certainly news to me.

I turned to Barton's The Soul of Abraham Lincoln in which he quotes an article written in 1873 that appeared in Scribner's Monthly. The author, James A. Reed, quoted a letter that Smith had written to William Herndon in 1867, after Herndon wrote Smith asking about Lincoln's religious views. Smith wrote a scathing letter to Herndon which also appeared in the Springfield Journal in March 1867. Smith wrote "It will no doubt be gratifying to the friends of Christianity to learn that very shortly after Mr. Lincoln became a member of my congregation, at my request, in the presence of a large assembly at the annual meeting of the Bible Society of Springfield, he delivered an address the object of which was to inculcate the importance of having the Bible placed in possession of every family in the State. In the course of it he drew a striking contrast between the Decalogue and the moral codes of the most eminent lawgivers of antiquity, and closed (as near as I can recollect) in the following language: 'It seems to me that nothing short of infinite wisdom could by any possibility have devised and given to man this excellent and perfect moral code. It is suited to men in all conditions of life, and includes all the duties they owe to their Creator, to themselves, and to their fellow-men.'"

Barton also quoted at length a man named Thomas Lewis, who was a lawyer in Springfield whose office adjoined Lincoln's. In November 1898, Lewis wrote a letter from his home in Kansas which appeared in both Springfield newspapers in which he mentioned the alleged lecture. "Some month's later the session of the church invited Mr. Lincoln to deliver a lecture on the Bible. When it became known that Mr. Lincoln was to lecture in the Presbyterian church it assured a full house. It was said by divines and others to be the ablest defense of the Bible ever uttered in the public. (Barton, The Soul of Abraham Lincoln, 159)

There are a number of issues with this claim. First, Smith's recollection merits only a "C" from the Fehrenbachers, who note "There appears to be no other evidence of Lincoln's having delivered such an address, and all testimony regarding Lincoln's religion should probably be regarded with skepticism." Lewis's recollections comes from a man 46 years after the fact. It should also be noted that in the book Barton puts the article in the Springfield papers on December 10, 1898 while it actually appeared in both papers on December 16, 1898. The confusion may have stemmed from the date of Lewis's letter, which was November 10, 1898.

More important, however, is, as the Fehrenbacher's note, there is no supporting evidence such a lecture ever took place. I searched both the Illinois State Journal and the Illinois State Register for the year 1852 and no mention is made in either paper of a lecture by Lincoln. Given Lewis's claim that the news of Lincoln's lecture "assured a full house" it seems unlikely that neither paper would have some comment on it, especially given Lincoln's known views on religion, if such a lecture ever took place. In addition, there is nothing on the website, The Lincoln Log, about a lecture. 1852 was the year that Lincoln delivered his eulogy on Henry Clay, and he was mentioned often in both papers throughout the year. I personally don't think such a lecture ever took place. But of greater importance to me, does this put into question Smith's entire testimony? In the Collected Works, Lincoln mentions that Smith was "an intimate personal friend of mine" (Vol. 6, Pg. 51) but I don't see any other reference other than second-hand testimony that Lincoln ever read The Christian's Defence nor was moved by its arguments. Even Robert Bray, in his article "What Lincoln Read" calls it unlikely that Lincoln read the book. (Bray, Journal of the Abraham Lincoln Association, Summer 2007 Pg. 75) It seems to me that Barton was taken in by testimony presented at the time to negate Herndon's and later Ward Hill Lamon's belief that Lincoln was an infidel.

Best
Rob

Print this item

  The Terre Haute Madstone
Posted by: Anita - 12-07-2016, 05:02 PM - Forum: Abraham Lincoln before his Presidency - Replies (8)

This is from an article found here. https://stephenjessetaylor.wordpress.com...history-2/

I hadn't heard this story of Lincoln taking Robert to be cured by a madstone. Is there any truth to it?


"A “widow lady” whom McCormick thinks was Mary Taylor “cured three cases” of hydrophobia in early 1848, according to the Wabash Express.

During the decades when John McCoy and Mrs. Taylor were folk medical practitioners in the Hoosier State, Abraham Lincoln, according to an old claim, brought his son Robert to Terre Haute to be cured of an ominous dog-bite.

Poet and Lincoln biographer Edgar Lee Masters reported this claim in his 1931 Lincoln the Man. (Like the president, Masters was obsessed with melancholy and death. He grew up near Lincoln’s New Salem in Illinois and later set his paranormal masterpiece, Spoon River Anthology, in the old Petersburg cemetery where Lincoln’s first lover, Ann Rutledge, a typhus victim, lies.)

“He believed in the madstone,” Masters wrote, in a section on Lincoln’s superstition, “and one of his sisters-in-law related that Lincoln took one of his boys to Terre Haute, Indiana, to have the stone applied to a wound inflicted by a dog on the boy.”

Max Ehrmann, a once-renowned poet and philosopher who lived in Terre Haute, investigated Masters’ claim in 1936. At the famous hotel called the Terre Haute House, Ehrmann had once heard a similar story from three of Lincoln’s political acquaintances. They told Ehrmann that sometime in the 1850s, Lincoln, then still a lawyer in Springfield, brought Robert to Indiana for a madstone cure. Father and son stayed at The Prairie House at 7th and Wabash, an earlier incarnation of the famous hotel. A sister of Mary Todd Lincoln, Frances Todd Wallace, backed up the story.

“I have never been able to discover who owned the mad-stone,” Ehrmann wrote. “It was a woman, so the story runs.” If true, Robert (the only child of Abraham and Mary Lincoln to survive to adulthood) would have been a young child or teenager. He lived to be 82."

Print this item

  Scottish Accent
Posted by: Angela - 10-28-2016, 03:26 PM - Forum: Abraham Lincoln before his Presidency - Replies (9)

This is the second time I came across this and thought it notable.
Apparently, Abraham Lincoln managed to acquire a wicked Scottish accent in order to properly quote Robert Burns' poetry - and from the references it appears he did so in his younger years - around 1830.
I have come across this in Michael Burlingame's biography and now again in the Sidney Blumenthal bio (which sadly isn't giving many original sources). I have gone through Herndon's Informants a bit but have not been lucky yet.
So fun to imagine how he might have picked this up, isn't it!

Print this item

  Springfield Must-Sees?
Posted by: Susan Higginbotham - 09-27-2016, 01:48 PM - Forum: Abraham Lincoln before his Presidency - Replies (4)

Because of our recent move, I won't be able to make the upcoming Springfield tour, but I will be coming in mid-October for a short research trip. I'll be visiting the Lincoln house (of course), the old state house, and the railway depot, and I'll be seeing the outside at least of the Herndon firm and the Vachel Lindsay house (Ann Todd Smith's former digs). I plan to spend most of Monday in the presidential library, but I do hope to get to the cemetery to pay my respects.

Any other sites I should make every effort to see? I'll be staying downtown and will be on foot, and I will be under rather severe time constraints. There's always the possibility of a second trip, though.

Print this item

  Berry Lincoln Rutledge Hanks connection
Posted by: William Berry - 07-03-2016, 02:35 PM - Forum: Abraham Lincoln before his Presidency - Replies (6)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4yl_oc...sp=sharing


A must Read https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4yl_oc...sp=sharing

Print this item

  You can call me "Al"...
Posted by: Eva Elisabeth - 06-24-2016, 08:49 AM - Forum: Abraham Lincoln before his Presidency - Replies (20)

...rather than "Abe" - I have often read Abraham Lincoln didn't like to be addressed that way. Does anyone know a direct source? The closest I could approach is Frederic Trevor Hill: "Lincoln the Lawyer", page 175:
   
Here's the download:
https://archive.org/download/lincolnlawy...llgoog.pdf

So far I haven't further researched Judge Weldon's statement as he didn't particularly seem to refer to Abraham Lincoln uttering dislike of "Abe".

I would suspect one of "Herndon's Informants" but couldn't find so far. Thanks for any help with this!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ULjCSK0oOlI

Print this item

  1860 Election board game
Posted by: Lincoln Wonk - 06-02-2016, 07:55 AM - Forum: Abraham Lincoln before his Presidency - Replies (2)

Interesting if you scroll down to the information about the 1860 Election board game:

http://delawarepublic.org/post/history-m...e#stream/0

Print this item

  Captain Abraham Lincoln vs. Private Lorenzo Dow Thompson
Posted by: RJNorton - 04-11-2016, 12:45 PM - Forum: Abraham Lincoln before his Presidency - Replies (5)

I knew that Abraham Lincoln once lost a wrestling match to a man named Lorenzo Dow Thompson, but I had never read a detailed account of the match. Last week a gentleman named Brian L. Moore joined the forum, and he sent me a most detailed account of the match. Brian is a direct descendent of Jonathan Moore who refereed the match. Brian was kind enough to send this account. Thank you, Brian!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


CAPTAIN ABRAHAM LINCOLN versus PRIVATE LORENZO DOW THOMPSON

THE STORY OF A CELEBRATED CONTEST

While searching for material affecting the history of the Black Hawk War, of course I found the stereotyped version of the noted wrestling match between Captain Abraham Lincoln and an obscure private from the St. Clair company of Captain William Moore; the same published in Nicolay and Hay's Life of Lincoln. But not until too late for my purpose did I secure its details with anything like accuracy. A long course of investigation has just rewarded me with the facts.

The match was celebrated, the State over, long before Lincoln became famous and it must be admitted a pleasure to turn from the serious man, to the early, robust Lincoln; the young man of stature and strength, informal as he was when just reaching man's estate and in possession of his first prize in life.

It may seem ridiculous to class the modest office of captain of a company of sixty day volunteers, as a proud position, yet Leonard Swett has told us the day of Lincoln's election to such a position in 1832, was the proudest of the latter's life.

When Governor Reynolds called out the militia to remove Black Hawk and his band from Illinois soil, " dead or alive," Abraham Lincoln as he has told us, was "out of a job," and enlistment therein invited him to place, adventure and perhaps renown. A company of sixty-eight intractable spirits (two more were added subsequently), was organized in Sangamon County and enrolled on April 21st, of which Lincoln was elected captain and from which he was expected to exact discipline. His First Sergeant was John Armstrong, the gentleman who had undertaken with disastrous personal results, to introduce Lincoln to New Salem " life " through the medium of a wrestling match. William Kirkpatrick, said to have filched a cant-hook from Lincoln, as well as the latter's rival in the contest for captain, was another. The Clary boys, Royal and William, who acted disagreeable parts at the Armstrong function, were of the number, while as though smiling at the joke of it, " Pleasant " Armstrong was another private. Finally from the sentimental side we find the names of John M. and David Rutledge to add to the list. Truly a picturesque crowd!

Once organized, the company was marched to Beardstown to be sworn into the service of the State by Inspector General John J. Hardin, where too the captain fell in with such men as O. H. Browning, Edward D. Baker, Adam W. Snyder, John Dement, Gov. Carlin and others who became famous in the history of the State and Nation. At that point the companies were formed into regiments and moved toward " The Yellow Banks " en route for the mouth of Rock River where Captain Lincoln was to meet General Henry Atkinson, and Lieut.-Col. Zachary Taylor, as well as Lieutenant Robert Anderson, Lieutenant Jefferson Davis, Captain William S. Harney, Lieut. Albert Sidney Johnston and many others who were to be prominent in his future during the great crisis of our country.

In referring to the nights of that period, O. H. Browning in his journal of May 2d, wrote that they were " cold and tempestuous; " so that choice camping grounds, affording wood and water, were eagerly sought and when found, the scramble for their possession was spirited.

At, or just out of Beardstown, the companies of Captain Lincoln and Captain William Moore from St. Clair County, came upon just such a camping ground simultaneously and for its occupation a strife arose of course. With the propensity for free fights, usual to those days, it may appear miraculous at this day that such an affray was avoided; but as Captain Lincoln felt his official oats at the time and may have desired to reap a little personal advantage from the collision, he proposed to Captain Moore that " ' captain for captain/ the matter should be settled by a match." But as every rule of wrestling forbade a contest so unequal, Captain Moore, who declined, suggested as a substitute the selection of a man from each company. That appeared fair enough and with a metaphorical chip on his shoulder Captain Lincoln selected himself to represent his company, while Captain Moore who was not an authority on " wrestling form," turned over the function of selection to his brother, Jonathan Moore, Orderly Sergeant.

The latter knew his business even though a shout of derision went up from Lincoln's men when the champion was produced. When led up for slaughter, the victim was found to be just above medium height and weight and so unobtrusive and guileless that I had almost forgotten to mention his name: " Lorenzo Dow Thompson of St. Clair County. Captain Lincoln chortled and gave the upstart a look of such fine scorn that the poor fellow should have been sorry for living and had the affair been one of to-day we surely could have heard the captain shout " what a cinch! " when the books were opened for bets.

Jonathan Moore was called to referee the match which was to consist of " best two in three " falls. He tossed up a coin, winning choice of " holts " for Thompson, who chose " side holt." Lincoln's was " Indian holt," and generally speaking it was a scrappy sort of a " holt " too. At once a great scramble followed among Lincoln's men to lay their bets before Captain Moore's men got " scart." But Captain Moore's men refused to get " scart." In fact there was a very suspicious degree of firmness and unanimity in their opinion of " Dow " Thompson's ability to take care of himself and any loose change his friends might put up on him; so up went powder-horns, guns, watches, coats, horses, pay-rolls and reputations until there remained not one solitary article of property in possession or expectancy thereof which had not been put into the pot on that match.

To increase the zest of his men for gaming, Captain Lincoln who was co ck-sure of victory, had urged them to offer odds and discount the future all they could, and the men did it. Then the combatants grappled " side holt, " Thompson's choice.

They see-sawed. The spectators shouted. Momentarily Lincoln's men bantered Thompson with words of encouragement, " just to drag the sport out and get their money's worth," but when they discovered their error there appeared a temporary inspiration by the Clary boys to meddle. The Armstrong boys wanted to get busy as the contest proceeded, but before any of these meddlers could devise a plan, the long legs of the captain cleft the air and in the very next instant Thompson had him fairly upon the ground. The din which followed would have silenced a thunderstorm.

As said of the boy who fell down cellar: " he did not hurt himself, but did hurt his new pants, so it might be said of the chagrined captain after that first fall. His person had not been harmed but the disaster to his feelings was something dreadful. Particularly harmful because the crowd to witness it had quadrupled several times, each installment adding a few words of humiliation. Defeat in the presence of a few friends would have been dreadful, but surrounded by an army and he a captain, it was a catastrophe. Even the swagger back to the center did not square it. His friends shouted: " That's only one fall, while two more are due." That encouragement did not place his confidence in status quo. But he made his bluff by stating icily when he had secured his " holt : " " Now Mr. Thompson, it's your turn to go down."

The Indian hug or " holt " did not work at all however. In fact the patronizing captain was kept busy trying to keep his feet solid against the multitude of tricks which Thompson had up his sleeve to thwart the captain's favorite " holt." At last it was abandoned as altogether useless.

The redoubtable captain followed with a "crotch-holt," but that terrible device was resisted as easily as water runs from a duck's back. A trick called " sliding away," was introduced, only to confirm the growing opinion of the spectators that the doughty wrestler from Sangamon had met his master.

A moment of indecision followed, the slipping of a mental cog, so to speak, — just enough to allow the despised St. Clair man to get in his fine work, and once more the legs of the valiant captain rose in the air and both men fell to the ground in a heap.

" Dog fall! " yelled Lincoln's men.

" Fair fall! " retorted Moore's men.

A free fight was imminent, but Lincoln, disgruntled and defeated though he was — in one fall at least — was a " good loser." Springing to his feet before the referee could act, he cried : " Boys ! The man actually threw me once fairly ; broadly so, and this second time — this very fall, he threw me fairly though not apparently so." That settled the matter and the frankness of the speaker saved him his reputation although his men had lost all their available property.

On the 8th day of August, 1860, Professor Risdon Marshall Moore, then of McKendree College (now of San Antonio, Texas), son of the referee, Jonathan Moore, called upon Mr. Lincoln at the latter's house in Springfield with a delegation of college men, devotedly attached to Mr. Lincoln's cause. In introducing Prof. Moore, Lieutenant Governor Koerner added, " of St. Clair County."

Prof. Moore then stated : " Mr. Lincoln, we have called to see the next President." To which Mr. Lincoln replied: "You must go to Washington to see the next President."

During this and other conversation which followed, Mr. Lincoln eyed Prof. Moore constantly with a suspicious twinkle of the eye, after which he asked: "Which of the Moore families do you belong to? I have a grudge against one of them."

Professor Moore replied with a still merrier twinkle : " I suppose it is my family you have the grudge against, but we are going to elect you President and call it even."

There were present at that meeting the same O. H. Browning who had witnessed the match nearly thirty years before, Norman B. Judd, Richard J. Oglesby and some others, to all of whom Mr. Lincoln related the story as herein told, concluding with these words : "I owe that Moore family a grudge, as I never had been thrown in a wrestling match until the man from that company did it. He could have thrown a grizzly bear."

Poor Thompson! He migrated to Harrison County, Missouri, and became its first representative in the General Assembly of the State in 1846 was re-elected in 1848. He was also a member of the first grand jury of the county. Politically he was called an anti-Benton Democrat. Positive in all his convictions, he was called eccentric toward the end of his life, but all who knew him testify that he was able, upright and a good neighbor and citizen.

In 1875 he died in indigence at the age of 65 and his body lies in Oakland cemetery six miles north of Bethany.

Singularly enough, we are told that to the same point migrated one Peter Rutledge who claimed to be brother to Ann Rutledge.

In the early history of Illinois, the Moores were known as the " fighting Moores," by reason of their daring in the Indian war of 181 2-14 and the border troubles which were constantly menacing our frontier.

Jonathan Moore who was born in Georgia, Nov. 20, 1799, was one of the number. He moved to Illinois in 181 2, served in the Black Hawk War and enlisted in the Mexican War, but his company was rejected because troops enough had already been sent to the front.

At the breaking out of the Civil War, he enlisted and was made captain of company " G " Thirty-second Illinois Infantry and served at Shiloh and other hard fought engagements.

Chicago. Frank E. Stevens.

P. S. — I wish to express my indebtedness to Gen. Henry Cadle, of Bethany, Mo., for valuable favors connected with this story.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Brian also included the photos below. In a previous trivia question I had confused the two men and incorrectly said the photo of Moore was Thompson.

[Image: thompson.jpg] [Image: moore.jpg]

Print this item