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The 1998 Spittoon Debate in the Lincoln home. - LincolnMan - 01-29-2017 04:47 PM
In the Winter 2016 Issue of For The People there is an article by James Cornelius about the matter of whether or not the Lincolns had two spittoons in their sitting room at the Springfield home. There is a woodcut illustration that appeared in Frank Leslie's Illustrated Newspaper, March 9, 1861 which shows two objects that could be two spittoons on either side of the fireplace. Based on that, there were placed two spittoons in the sitting room in 1998. The site of the spittoons in the Lincoln sitting room did not go over well with some, to say the least. The issue was not settled until 1998.
My question for my fellow Forum members is this: do you think the Lincolns had spittoons in their sitting room? If the ojects are not spittoons- then what are they?
I will give you the what the determination was according to the article after some of your opinions are offered.
RE: The 1998 Spittoon Debate in the Lincoln home. - RJNorton - 01-30-2017 05:02 AM
I do not know what they might be, but since Abraham Lincoln was not known to chew tobacco I sort of doubt the family would have spittoons in their sitting room. My image of Mary Lincoln is that she would not have allowed such, but possibly when large groups of people visited the home, spittoons were retrieved from storage and placed in that room. But I tend to doubt they were there on a daily basis.
RE: The 1998 Spittoon Debate in the Lincoln home. - LincolnMan - 01-30-2017 05:34 AM
Roger: that really boils down to what the question pertains to: given that Lincoln did not use tobacco- would there have been spittoons there for guests? And would Mrs. Lincoln have favored such a thing?
RE: The 1998 Spittoon Debate in the Lincoln home. - RJNorton - 01-30-2017 06:55 AM
Bill, I have no idea, but I suppose if it's a choice between the floor/carpeting getting stained and having spittoons out for the guests, then I suppose she might have the spittoons.
RE: The 1998 Spittoon Debate in the Lincoln home. - Eva Elisabeth - 01-30-2017 08:23 AM
I agree on all Roger said - if at all then "this way". Somehow I am not sure however if she and he had allowed at all. He e.g. was opposed to serve alcohol. And was it the kind of guests Mary would have appreciated at all?
"In the late 19th century United States and Australia spittoons became a very common feature of pubs, brothels, saloons, hotels, stores, banks, railway carriages, and other places where people (especially adult men) gathered." (Wiki)
Not sure if she would have bowed to such guests featuring brothel, saloon or railway carriage standard in her place.
RE: The 1998 Spittoon Debate in the Lincoln home. - Susan Higginbotham - 01-30-2017 09:18 AM
Wouldn't spittoons be placed on the floor? Unless I'm missing something (which is quite possible), the "spittoons" appear to be on the mantle.
I do think that given the prevalence of tobacco use, when the Lincolns had large mixed gatherings, spittoons would have been set out for the convenience of guests, just as in later decades nonsmoking hosts would set out ashtrays for their cigarette-smoking guests.
RE: The 1998 Spittoon Debate in the Lincoln home. - RJNorton - 01-30-2017 09:35 AM
(01-30-2017 08:23 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: And was it the kind of guests Mary would have appreciated at all?
I sure agree, Eva. But I think she was not able to always choose who entered the Lincoln home during the time frame before and after the 1860 election.
(01-30-2017 09:18 AM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote: Lincolns had large mixed gatherings, spittoons would have been set out for the convenience of guests,
Excellent point, Susan. I think the "large mixed gatherings" were especially prevalent during the c.1860 time frame.
Out of curiosity I checked Pratt's book on the Lincolns' finances and drew a blank. No mention that I could find of a purchase of spittoons.
Two spittoons are listed in the Historic Furnishings Report: Lincoln Home National Historic Site.
https://archive.org/stream/historicfurnishi00menz/historicfurnishi00menz_djvu.txt
RE: The 1998 Spittoon Debate in the Lincoln home. - Eva Elisabeth - 01-30-2017 10:03 AM
Maybe someone gave them to the Lincolns as a birthday/Xmas/election whatsoever gift...
(01-30-2017 09:35 AM)RJNorton Wrote:(01-30-2017 08:23 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: And was it the kind of guests Mary would have appreciated at all?
I sure agree, Eva. But I think she was not able to always choose who entered the
Lincoln home during the time frame before and after the 1860 election
When Lincoln just served "Adam's ale" (cold water) to the committee (headed by George Ashmun, on May 19, 1860) notifying him of his nomination as presidential candidate of the Republican Party, Lincoln stated: "Having kept house sixteen years, and having never held the 'cup' to the lips of my friends then, my judgment was that I should not, in my new position, change my habit in this respect."
He didn't chew tobacco either, so I think he was likely not involved in getting/putting up such device. As for Mary - I think she would have also decided in line with appropriate upper class house keeping. Was chewing tobacco a habit appropriate or customary in such peer group? (The brothels and saloons make me think of rather different parts of society.)
RE: The 1998 Spittoon Debate in the Lincoln home. - L Verge - 01-30-2017 11:00 AM
I'm with Eva on this one. We have a spittoon at Surratt House, but it is displayed in the tavern, as would have been appropriate. We use it in our interpretation since we also display plugs of tobacco on the bar shelves and a plug cutter. We reference the use of the spittoon for spitting contests during fun-filled, crowded days at the old bar. With school groups, some of us suggest that teachers hold spitting contests during inside recess (similar to spelling bees, if they still have them - which I doubt). For some reason, the teachers don't seem interested...
P.S. Some old bars of the late-1800s had spitting troughs that ran the length of the counter for convenient use. There used to be one in Baltimore, which had water running through it to clear the spittle.
I question whether or not a home that did not have a tobacco user (or obnoxious spitter) would have had a spittoon available for their guests. From what I can gather, while spittoons go back centuries, the widespread use of them as home receptacles does not. I found reference to the first mass-produced spittoons coming via England after Francis Schmitton began his industry there in 1846. How fast did they make it across to widespread use in America? BTW, some pundits coined the phrase "Schpittons" from the logo that the entrepreneur stamped on his wares. Most other sources refer to them becoming fixtures in all sorts of American public places from the mid-1800s through 1930. Would the Lincolns have provided them for guests in Springfield? I have my doubts.
In case Mary did want to accommodate her guests, I would think she'd place the spittoon outside at the home's entrance with the hint to empty one's mouth before entering -- just like sand containers today invite cigarette users to "snuff it." I found a similar reference to this dating to the 1300s, when Catholic churches had spittoons at the entrance doors to advise the serfs to spit the dust and dirt from the fields before entering.
The references to the spittoon's beginnings in the U.S. go back to the southwest portions of our country and are linked to the cowboys, who not only chewed, but constantly dealt with winds and dust gathering in their mouths. Saloons were obvious places for relaxation and entertainment - and spitting on the floors. Even with the invention of the mop, saloon keepers tired of cleaning up the mess (which was a safety concern). Spittoons became a welcome addition that spread to other public places also.
This was especially true after the Civil War. I tend to think that it was the later Victorian era that brought spittoons into the middle-class and upper-class homes (even Tiffany & Co manufactured them). There are references to spitting sheets that were placed on the bare floor or over carpeting as well as being tacked to walls behind the vessel to catch what didn't make it in.
I even got a little green around the gills when I read about a group (20th-century, I believe) called the Salivation Army. Supposedly, they came out during the holidays dressed as Santa Claus and holding a red vessel in which the passerby was encouraged to spit. The contents were then fermented for thirty days with dairy additives and sold as eggnog.
Time to stop, Laurie...
RE: The 1998 Spittoon Debate in the Lincoln home. - LincolnMan - 01-30-2017 06:14 PM
Great input everyone. Well, the matter was settled when a poll was taken among members of the Abraham Lincoln Association as to whether the two objects in the illustration were spittoons or footstools. At the time of Mrs. Lincoln's death, she owned about forty. The verdict was more on the side of the footstools. The National Park Service removed the spittoons. I think we members of the Forum would agree with that outcome.
RE: The 1998 Spittoon Debate in the Lincoln home. - L Verge - 01-30-2017 06:57 PM
Can someone post that illustration of the items on the mantle?
RE: The 1998 Spittoon Debate in the Lincoln home. - Susan Higginbotham - 01-30-2017 07:45 PM
http://digital.lib.uiowa.edu/cdm/ref/collection/bollinger/id/5203
That explains why I was looking at the mantle for the alleged spittoons--I saw the footstools and never thought they were anything besides footstools.
RE: The 1998 Spittoon Debate in the Lincoln home. - L Verge - 01-30-2017 09:12 PM
I see two decorative pitchers on the mantle. Did someone think they were spittoons? I don't see anything that resembles a spittoon. I'm confused...
And, I only see one footstool, unless that blob in front of the rocking chair is supposed to be one. I don't think footstools are used with rocking chairs, however.
RE: The 1998 Spittoon Debate in the Lincoln home. - Susan Higginbotham - 01-30-2017 10:11 PM
(01-30-2017 09:12 PM)L Verge Wrote: I see two decorative pitchers on the mantle. Did someone think they were spittoons? I don't see anything that resembles a spittoon. I'm confused...
And, I only see one footstool, unless that blob in front of the rocking chair is supposed to be one. I don't think footstools are used with rocking chairs, however.
I think the blob in front of the rocking chair is a footstool. I suppose if someone didn't want to rock back he or she could put his feet up on it. Or maybe the boys just perched on the footstools when the other seats were taken.
I had thought that the pitchers might be what someone was calling spittoons, since I couldn't see anything else in the room that was the spitting image of a spittoon.
RE: The 1998 Spittoon Debate in the Lincoln home. - Eva Elisabeth - 01-30-2017 10:31 PM
In a nutshell - Bill, footstools and Mary makes perfect sense to me. I agree with Susan the small, four-legged items being footstools, and with Laurie on that there are two pitchers on the mantlepiece.
As for footstool - rocker combi - especially for smaller persons (Mary wasn't tall) sitting as well as rocking is easier/more comfortable when the floor isn't that far away.
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