New Eyewitness Account?

[RJNorton]

Here is what Tom Bogar said:

"He (Tom Gourlay) led her through the stage left door, then left to an outside stairway up to the Fords’ apartment next door, through which they reached a reception room that connected back with the theatre’s dress circle, and then into the presidential box, from which Booth's wedged stick had by then been removed from inside."

Steve, I do not think I have ever seen a more detailed account than Tom's.

[Steve]

(12-14-2024 10:07 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Here is what Tom Bogar said:

"He (Tom Gourlay) led her through the stage left door, then left to an outside stairway up to the Fords’ apartment next door, through which they reached a reception room that connected back with the theatre’s dress circle, and then into the presidential box, from which Booth's wedged stick had by then been removed from inside."

Steve, I do not think I have ever seen a more detailed account than Tom's.

Looking at the map, I was just wondering where/what exactly the Fords' apartment was. The lounge is the level above the saloon. Is the hallway with the door to the stairs outside next to the lounge the "apartment"? (The map has the hallway containing the stairs going to the offices on the floor above.) Is the map wrong and it's part of the room labelled lounge on the map? Or is the office level above the apartment, with the hallway being considered part of the apartment?


On a tangentially related topic; because of this I was looking through all my William J. Ferguson and Gourlay family article clippings. In the William J. Ferguson articles, he always says Keene left him to go to box, not that he escorted to the box. As far as I can tell, he only begins to tell the story of him escorting Keene to the box in his 1930 book. The earliest article I have where Ferguson talks about the assassination is from 1909, I think. So that's at least two decades telling the story one way, until his book came out.

(edit I made before posting below)

I was going to ask why I hadn't picked up on that before, but when looking for the image of the 1909 article, it turns out that I had noticed it when I originally posted the article to forum six years ago:

https://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussi...l#pid71770

I just don't remember it at all!

[Gene C]

Welcome, and you should have received your AARP and Medicare information by now.

[Dave Taylor]

Steve,

According to the Ford's Theatre blueprints from the reconstruction period in the 1960s, the Ford brother's apartment was on the third floor, in line with the family circle. Check out the blueprint of the third floor on page 80 here: https://www.google.com/books/edition/Res...frontcover

[Steve]

Dave, thanks! I'm no longer confused.

[RJNorton]

Thank you to Tom Bogar for sending this image. Tom writes, "It's from page 78 of Olszewski's Restoration of Ford's Theatre, and shows the stairs Keene took, up the back and through the landing of the Fords' apartment (most of which was on the third floor) into the theater's lounge. Hope it helps.

[RJNorton]

Steve would like to thank Dave and Tom for their input.

Steve also sent an article. He writes, "I have part of an article to post to the Forum. It's part of a larger GATH (George A. Townsend) article which was published on page 1 of the 18 April 1865 edition of the New York World. Due to legibility concerns posting, I've just cropped part of the article.

But my reasoning for posting, is just to post a question which doesn't really have a really determinable answer: Do you think Thomas Gourlay Sr., could be one of Townsend's sources? It mentions Keene going up the back stairs. It mentions his daughter, Jeanie's brief encounter with Booth while slashing at Withers. Something I don't think was mentioned by Withers during the conspiracy trial and not mentioned by Jeanie herself until newspaper interviews decades later. I suppose Harry Ford could have been one of Townsend's sources as well. Again, it's likely not an answerable question, just food for thought."

Steve also sent a .pdf of the full article. If anyone asks, I shall be glad to forward it to you.

[RJNorton]

I am still looking for a way to reconcile all this with Clara Harris' statement that "Laura Keene did not enter the box from first to last. She might have been with the crowd who were trying to get in at the door, but only a very few were admitted, and she was not among the number."

[Steve]

For reference, here's the Clara Harris interview Roger just mentioned. Images of part of the interview were posted to the Forum in another thread. It comes from the 29 Dec. 1877 edition of the Philadelphia Weekly Times:




Personally, the weight of evidence leads me to think it's way more likely Keene was in the box than she wasn't, despite what Clara Harris remembered 12 1/2 years later. Memory is fallible. Also despite the media image of Laura Keene holding the President's head in her lap, that probably couldn't have lasted longer than a minute or two while they were trying to get the President to swallow liquids. Laura could be remembering other times when the President's head was on the floor. The strongest evidence for Keene being in the box would be here her interview by the New York Herald in the 17 April 1865 edition, (the image is a few posts above). And the apparent letter of William Kent to his mother written on 15 April 1865 which can be seen on this thread:

https://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussi...l#pid86647

Dr. Leale doesn't mention Keene in his original April 1865 account of the President's treatment. But he does mention the brandy and water arriving just before Drs. Taft and King arrive:

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jala/262986...w=fulltext

As soon as I removed my finger a slight oozing of blood followed and his breathing became more regular and less stertorous. The brandy and water now arrived and a small quantity was placed in his mouth, which passed into his stomach where it was retained.

Dr. C. F. Taft and Dr. A. F. A. King now arrived and after a moments consultation we agreed to have him removed to the nearest house, which we immediately did, the above named with others assisting.

However, the above evidence isn't completely airtight. I think it's good for what we know right now but a good lawyer might argue the points against:

1. In the rush to get a scoop the Herald published a fake interview with Clara Harris just the day before Keene's interview was published so Keene's interview could be fake as well:

https://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussi...l#pid88872

2. William Kent could be lying about being in the box altogether when Lincoln was being treated, just to keep out of trouble for the real reason he was later in the box when he found Booth's gun.

[David Lockmiller]

(12-17-2024 08:43 AM)Steve Wrote:  For reference, here's the Clara Harris interview Roger just mentioned.

Clara Harris had an incredibly tragic life after accepting the invitation to attend Ford's theatre that night.

I would suggest reading this relatively short post on Wikipedia.

In the end, she was murdered by her husband on Christmas Day 1883.

[Anita]

(12-17-2024 08:43 AM)Steve Wrote:  For reference, here's the Clara Harris interview Roger just mentioned. Images of part of the interview were posted to the Forum in another thread. It comes from the 29 Dec. 1877 edition of the Philadelphia Weekly Times:




Personally, the weight of evidence leads me to think it's way more likely Keene was in the box than she wasn't, despite what Clara Harris remembered 12 1/2 years later. Memory is fallible. Also despite the media image of Laura Keene holding the President's head in her lap, that probably couldn't have lasted longer than a minute or two while they were trying to get the President to swallow liquids. Laura could be remembering other times when the President's head was on the floor. The strongest evidence for Keene being in the box would be here her interview by the New York Herald in the 17 April 1865 edition, (the image is a few posts above). And the apparent letter of William Kent to his mother written on 15 April 1865 which can be seen on this thread:

https://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussi...l#pid86647

Dr. Leale doesn't mention Keene in his original April 1865 account of the President's treatment. But he does mention the brandy and water arriving just before Drs. Taft and King arrive:

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jala/262986...w=fulltext

As soon as I removed my finger a slight oozing of blood followed and his breathing became more regular and less stertorous. The brandy and water now arrived and a small quantity was placed in his mouth, which passed into his stomach where it was retained.

Dr. C. F. Taft and Dr. A. F. A. King now arrived and after a moments consultation we agreed to have him removed to the nearest house, which we immediately did, the above named with others assisting.

However, the above evidence isn't completely airtight. I think it's good for what we know right now but a good lawyer might argue the points against:

1. In the rush to get a scoop the Herald published a fake interview with Clara Harris just the day before Keene's interview was published so Keene's interview could be fake as well:

https://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussi...l#pid88872

2. William Kent could be lying about being in the box altogether when Lincoln was being treated, just to keep out of trouble for the real reason he was later in the box when he found Booth's gun.

Was Mary Lincoln ever asked if Laura Keene was in the box and cradled Lincoln's head in her lap? Did Mary ever tell Robert Lincoln or anyone that Keene was or wasn't in the box? Knowing Mary's feelings about any woman getting close to Lincoln, Mary would be the one holding his head. A possible reason is that she didn't want to interfere with the doctors gathered around and working on Lincoln. This would support Clara's account that Laura Keene was never in the box.

[AussieMick]

I realise that this may be raising a question the answer to which will never be known ... and there's likely to many opinions ...

What are the versions as to the length of time beween the gun firing and Lincoln being removed from the box?

I'd like to think that the doctors ordered hangers-on, sticky beaks, and useless onlookers to leave.

One reason I ask is that Clara Harris may have left the box before Laura Keene entered.

[Steve]

Mick,
According to Dr. Leale's report written soon after, it was about 20 minutes between the time of the shot and when Lincoln was placed in the bed at Petersen House.
After the first couple of people followed Dr. Leale into the box, Maj. Rathbone ordered the soldier sitting right next to door, Lt. Crawford to guard the door and only let in doctors, which I guess also included the person(s) who brought the requested water and brandy as well. (Keene?) When they moved the President into Petersen House, a crowd of people followed them into the room and Leale ordered an officer to remove anyone who was not a doctor from the room.
Clara Harris didn't leave the box, but that would've also included the small hallway/antechamber behind the actual box with the door to the dress circle which Booth had jammed before he commenced the attack.

Anita,
I don't think Mary would've minded Keene helping the doctors trying to get the President to swallow water for what could've only been a minute or two at most. In the supposed Herald, interview Keene doesn't even mention having the President's head in her lap, just that she tried to comfort Mary Lincoln:

https://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussi...l#pid89737