Lincoln's embalmment

[Eva Elisabeth]

Did Lincoln's blood RUN? I wish the gentleman had visualized and demonstrated (reinacted) the way he thinks the blood reached the gloves - thus bent forward in a way that blood could run directly from the wound into the pocket without getting all soaked "on the way" by the coat, or how it could have run horizontally (overcoming the principle of gravity) when Lincoln lay on the floor! This is just difficult for me to imagine!

[Lincoln Wonk]

(05-05-2013 04:14 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  Years ago relatives of Dr. Brown sent me a newspaper ad that informed the public of his embalmment method. Dr. Steers' encyclopedia says that it was Henry P. Cattell, an associate of Dr. Brown's, who was the actual embalmer of President Lincoln. For many, many years I had thought it was Dr. Brown who did the embalming.

Roger, This is fascinating, especially the headline

[Houmes]

(01-05-2015 11:25 AM)Houmes Wrote:  

(01-05-2015 06:11 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(01-04-2015 11:30 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  In the initial minutes after the shooting, first hand accounts say that the president did not bleed much at all.

Hi Toia. Like you I have read that Lincoln's wound did not really bleed a lot. At the moment I can think of only one eyewitness who maintained her dress was blemished with Lincoln's blood. Seaton Munroe saw Laura Keene afterwords and reported, "Her hair and dress were in disorder, and not only was her gown soaked with Lincoln’s blood, but her hands, ever her cheeks where her fingers had strayed were bedaubed with the sorry stains."

If we are to believe Munroe, then Lincoln bled a lot. But was Monroe confusing Lincoln's blood with Rathbone's? Other than Munroe are there other eyewitness accounts that say Keene's dress was soaked with Lincoln's blood?

Henry Rathbone had a good part of his left upper arm sliced open and he was lucky to have survived. He struggled with Booth while Lincoln was still in his rocking chair, so there was plenty of floor space where Rathbone's blood could have been spilled or sprayed. If Laura Keene truly held Lincoln's head in her lap, she had to either kneel down or sit down on a wet floor--and at some point in her efforts, use either one or both hands to steady herself with that huge dress she was wearing. Her hands, like the dress, could easily have become stained with blood.

I've never read or heard a satisfactory explanation of how Lincoln's gloves, inside the deep pockets of a bulky coat, could become stained with his blood unless the coat was literally soaking wet like a sponge.

Not that I would ever stoop to confuse matters worse, but there was another lady claiming years later to have also cradled Lincoln's head in Ford's Theatre. This was Antonia Ford Willard, wife of Major Joseph C. Willard. Ironically, she had been imprisoned earlier in the war as a Confederate spy. Her descendants attempted in the 1930's to donate or sell the blood-stained opera cloak she wore to Ford's Theatre that night. Perhaps Ms. Willard and Ms. Keene passed Lincoln's head back and forth.

Read about this at: https://archive.org/stream/curiosrelicsclotlinc_11

[RJNorton]

(01-05-2015 06:23 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  I 100% think like Dr. Houmes and I'm afraid I find the Curator's explanation not any bit convincing (nevertheless it's cool to see the gloves in a video, thanks, Roger!), this sounds too far-fetched especially as the gloves really look like thoroughly soaked with blood.
Who was the millionaire Mary gave them to and what did he do with them - did he put them on display?

Hi Eva. On this page it says:

"According to the Chicago Sun-Times, it was considered polite at the time for politicians to wear gloves when greeting citizens. Despite Lincoln's distaste for them, he kept them in his pocket at his wife's insistence. After his assassination, Mary Todd Lincoln likely sold the gloves to wealthy New Yorker Benjamin Richardson due to financial concerns. They then passed through the hands of a number of private collectors before landing in the care of Louise Taper, owner of what the Lincoln Museum calls an "unparalleled private collection of Lincolniana and assassination-related materials."

Also, on this page there is a close view of the gloves including the ability to zoom in and also rotate the gloves.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Many thanks, Roger! I was assuming that Mary actually gave them away due to financial needs (although the Old Clothes Scandal was earlier if the curator is right about "three years after the assassination"), and not primarily to preserve them (as said in the video), she could have passed them on to Robert for that purpose and thus preserved them within the family.

---

(01-05-2015 09:16 PM)Houmes Wrote:  

(01-05-2015 11:25 AM)Houmes Wrote:  

(01-05-2015 06:11 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(01-04-2015 11:30 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  In the initial minutes after the shooting, first hand accounts say that the president did not bleed much at all.

Hi Toia. Like you I have read that Lincoln's wound did not really bleed a lot. At the moment I can think of only one eyewitness who maintained her dress was blemished with Lincoln's blood. Seaton Munroe saw Laura Keene afterwords and reported, "Her hair and dress were in disorder, and not only was her gown soaked with Lincoln’s blood, but her hands, ever her cheeks where her fingers had strayed were bedaubed with the sorry stains."

If we are to believe Munroe, then Lincoln bled a lot. But was Monroe confusing Lincoln's blood with Rathbone's? Other than Munroe are there other eyewitness accounts that say Keene's dress was soaked with Lincoln's blood?

Henry Rathbone had a good part of his left upper arm sliced open and he was lucky to have survived. He struggled with Booth while Lincoln was still in his rocking chair, so there was plenty of floor space where Rathbone's blood could have been spilled or sprayed. If Laura Keene truly held Lincoln's head in her lap, she had to either kneel down or sit down on a wet floor--and at some point in her efforts, use either one or both hands to steady herself with that huge dress she was wearing. Her hands, like the dress, could easily have become stained with blood.

I've never read or heard a satisfactory explanation of how Lincoln's gloves, inside the deep pockets of a bulky coat, could become stained with his blood unless the coat was literally soaking wet like a sponge.

Not that I would ever stoop to confuse matters worse, but there was another lady claiming years later to have also cradled Lincoln's head in Ford's Theatre. This was Antonia Ford Willard, wife of Major Joseph C. Willard. Ironically, she had been imprisoned earlier in the war as a Confederate spy. Her descendants attempted in the 1930's to donate or sell the blood-stained opera cloak she wore to Ford's Theatre that night. Perhaps Ms. Willard and Ms. Keene passed Lincoln's head back and forth.

Read about this at: https://archive.org/stream/curiosrelicsclotlinc_11

Such claims are just hilarious and fun to read (like the one that JWB swung off the stage on a rope provided by Confederates...) - thanks Dr. Houmes!

[loetar44]

(01-05-2015 09:16 PM)Houmes Wrote:  Not that I would ever stoop to confuse matters worse, but there was another lady claiming years later to have also cradled Lincoln's head in Ford's Theatre. This was Antonia Ford Willard, wife of Major Joseph C. Willard. Ironically, she had been imprisoned earlier in the war as a Confederate spy. Her descendants attempted in the 1930's to donate or sell the blood-stained opera cloak she wore to Ford's Theatre that night. Perhaps Ms. Willard and Ms. Keene passed Lincoln's head back and forth.

Read about this at: https://archive.org/stream/curiosrelicsclotlinc_11

This article states that Antonia Ford Willard “was at the Ford Theatre the night Lincoln was shot, and was in a BOX adjoining the one occupied by Mr. Lincoln”….. Hmmmm, how is that possible, since we know that all other boxes were unoccupied out of respect of the President…..

[Houmes]

(01-06-2015 12:39 PM)loetar44 Wrote:  

(01-05-2015 09:16 PM)Houmes Wrote:  Not that I would ever stoop to confuse matters worse, but there was another lady claiming years later to have also cradled Lincoln's head in Ford's Theatre.
Read about this at: https://archive.org/stream/curiosrelicsclotlinc_11

This article states that Antonia Ford Willard “was at the Ford Theatre the night Lincoln was shot, and was in a BOX adjoining the one occupied by Mr. Lincoln”….. Hmmmm, how is that possible, since we know that all other boxes were unoccupied out of respect of the President…..

How to explain the descendant's claim that Ms. Willard occupied the theatre box next to the presidential party? 1) Ignorance of history. 2) Family tradition, filtered through time and innocently recalled. 3) Delusions of grandeur. 4) $$$$. Otherwise, it's just a soiled opera cloak.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Kees, have you read "We Saw Lincoln Shot - 100 Eyewitness Accounts"? There are several other more than questionable accounts (well-commented), it's fascinating what people came up with especially after some years had passed - either because time or their desire for adding their share to the tale had expanded their memory! It's really worth reading!

[LincolnToddFan]

FASCINATING info and comments from everyone! Thanks especially to Roger for providing a clip link to the famous gloves. They appear rather small for AL's enormous mitts but they have certainly shrunk 150 years on.

My question is for Houmes. I read once that head/brain trauma injuries are notorious bleeders. And I distinctly remember being traumatized as a child after seeing photos of Sen. Robert F. Kennedy dying on the floor of the Ambassador Hotel. He had what looked like a huge pool of blood under his head after being shot behind the ear(mastoid bone). This sounds very similar to AL's injury.

I wonder why RFK bled profusely at once and AL formed a clot and did not?

[Eva Elisabeth]

(01-07-2015 05:07 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  I wonder why RFK bled profusely at once and AL formed a clot and did not?

My humble guess: because in RFK's case the bullet entered close(r ) to the ear and smashed the arteria carotis externa, interna, or both (thus the main arteriae):
   
...while in A. L.'s case the bullet entered farther back and affected only smaller arteries - see the drawing Roger posted here: http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...-1114.html

[LincolnToddFan]

Oh my God! That makes perfect sense Eva. It just sounds like a horrifying way to die, especially if you remain conscious and aware for a dreadful few minutes like RFK did.

Thanks much Eva, and also to Roger for the drawing.

[Houmes]

(01-07-2015 05:07 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  I read once that head/brain trauma injuries are notorious bleeders. And I distinctly remember being traumatized as a child after seeing photos of Sen. Robert F. Kennedy dying on the floor of the Ambassador Hotel. He had what looked like a huge pool of blood under his head after being shot behind the ear(mastoid bone). This sounds very similar to AL's injury.

At the back of the head, underneath the brain and inside the skull, are two large veins called the Lateral (some call them Transverse) sinuses. There is one on each side of the brain. They collect the blood from the back of the brain, enroute back to the heart. Similarly, on each side coursing up and into the brain is an artery called the superior cerebral artery, bringing blood up to the brain.

Lincoln was sitting with his head slumped forward, with the bullet wound facing upward. When Dr. Leale arrived he noted the president had little or no pulse. At the later autopsy, it was found that Booth's bullet had perforated the left lateral sinus. Gravity (and the shock to the brain from the injury) played a part in the president's low blood pressure, slowing the drainage up and out of the wound. After Dr. Leale placed Mr. Lincoln on the floor and ran his fingers through the president's scalp, enough time had passed that he found a clot in the bullet hole.

Robert Kennedy's wound was far different. Sirhan Sirhan's gun was a .22 caliber revolver with a muzzle velocity of 1,280 feet per second. The gun was fired point-blank and there were powder burns on Kennedy's scalp. Booth's deringer had a muzzle velocity of 425 feet per second, and was fired some distance away; none of Mr. Lincoln's physicians reported any powder burns. In gunshot wounds, bullet velocity is exponentially more important than the mass of the bullet, and causes more trauma. Sirhan's bullet not only tore through the right lateral sinus but also the right cerebral artery, so there was both venous and arterial drainage. Venous blood pressure is normally lower than arterial blood pressure, accounting for more bleeding from Kennedy's wound than Lincoln's. In addition, the people around Mr. Kennedy immediately placed him on the floor, on his back, with the bullet hole underneath, which--with gravity--allowed more drainage.

[LincolnToddFan]

Fascinating. Sounds like neither of these men had a ghost of a chance. Not even RFK, in a modern metropolitan trauma hospital with the best medical care available at the time.

And I had no idea that in a shooting, bullet velocity is more potentially damaging than bullet mass. I thought it was the other way around.

Once again, you are a wonder Houmes. Thanks for the detailed reply.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Toia, on the same thread I posted above (see post #20 ff - http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...age-2.html ) we once discussed the possibility of Lincoln's present day survival in case of instant appropriate medical care. I personally believe he would have had a good chance of survival.

[RJNorton]

Hi Toia. You can read about Dr. Houmes here:

http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/linc...edical.htm