Lincoln's embalmment

[RJNorton]

Hopefully this is a little better.

[ReignetteC]

[quote='L Verge' pid='42436' dateline='1420499254']
I would think that someone at some time would have checked to see if the pockets themselves were stained with blood???

---

BTW: Were the gloves found in the pocket of Lincoln's greatcoat or in the pocket of the frock coat to his suit? I have never seen that differentiated.

It would seem to me that one generally takes off one's gloves and puts them in the pocket of the outer coat (i.e. the greatcoat). Lincoln had removed the greatcoat upon entering the box, had he not? The blood would have run into the pockets of his frock coat. Is that where the gloves were found? Not in the pockets of the outer greatcoat? Could the gloves have dropped on the floor at some point and absorbed some of Rathbone's blood? So many questions, so many possibilities.

___________________________________________________________

I found your excellent query while reading through some threads (vacation allows such pleasure). Lincoln was wearing his overcoat (great coat ) when Booth shot him. Per Rathbone's affidavit: "The president seated himself in this chair, and except that he once left this chair for the purpose of putting on his overcoat, remained so seated until he was shot."

[RJNorton]

I believe I posted this link previously and will again here as it's an interesting (and controversial to some) explanation of how the blood arrived on the gloves. Dr. James Cornelius, the Lincoln Curator at the ALPLM, gives his analysis in the 4 minute video here.

[davg2000]

(01-08-2015 03:10 PM)Houmes Wrote:  

(01-08-2015 01:06 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  

(01-08-2015 04:25 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Toia, on the same thread I posted above we once discussed the possibility of Lincoln's present day survival in case of instant appropriate medical care. I personally believe he would have had a good chance of survival.

That's right...thanks Roger. In fact I remember reading that article long ago, before I even joined here.

I agree with Kees. Even if AL's life had been saved he would have been intellectually and mentally unrecognizable from the man we have come to know down through history. I think he would have been depressed and unhappy. Being unable to hear or see very well and unable to articulate as brilliantly might have been a fate worse than death for him.

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree. Through the years the various autopsy reports and recollections have been debated regarding the correct bullet path. Most of these reports were written hours or days later. The only primary report made during the autopsy was by Dr. Stone, scribbled on a druggist's prescription pad while the participants were discussing what they saw. Dr. Stone also wrote, later using his original notes, a longer final report. His later report correlates quite well with the report of Dr. Woodward, one of the two pathologists performing Lincoln's autopsy, and both agree that the bullet ended up on the left side. Two caveats are important: the first is that the drawing appearing in Dr. Lattimer's book was meant to be an approximation of two potential bullet paths, and was not drawn to scale--too often people assume the drawing is fact; the other is that Dr. Stone's original notes are much more revealing than his later report. What he didn't write later but included in his first note was the bullet "...entered the left ventricle...followed the course of the ventricle accurately...ploughing thro upper part of thalamus...(ending) just above the corpus striatum of left side." All the other autopsy reports, including the official one, are far less precise. From Stone's record, unless the bullet suddenly veered off course it couldn't have ended up behind the right eye. What it did do was destroy half of President Lincoln's brain. Neuropathologists today call the thalamus "high value real estate." It's in the critical central part of the brain and functions as a relay station for all sensory nerve centers in the brain, except for sense of smell. It's unheard of for a neurosurgeon today to consider repairing a simultaneously ravaged sinus, ventricle, and thalamus. The second Booth pulled the trigger of his deringer, there was no way Lincoln could survive--then or now.

OK, I'm know I'm way late to this thread, but where [undefined=undefined]did[/undefined] the bullet end up? Dr. Houmes's post says that from Dr. Stone's report it is clear that the bullet "couldn't have ended up behind the right eye." I thought it did end up behind the right eye and that was the reason for Lincoln's skull being fractured around the right eye, and the resulting discoloration to his skin.

[RJNorton]

Hi Dave. I'll write Blaine and let him know of your post. Blaine has a most interesting chapter entitled "The Wound of Mr. Lincoln" in the newly published Lincoln Assassination Riddle.

[davg2000]

Thanks, Roger.

[RJNorton]

Dave, Dr. Houmes wrote back and said, "I think the bullet ended up about ~ 1 inch above and near the back of his left eye, somewhere near the midline of his brain. Dr. Stone's report should have settled the argument."

"...that Dr. Stone's original notes are much more revealing than his later report. What he didn't write later but included in his first note was the bullet "...entered the left ventricle...followed the course of the ventricle accurately...ploughing thro upper part of thalamus...(ending) just above the corpus striatum of left side."

From the trial testimony of Dr. Stone:

Q. He died from that wound?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you extract the ball?
A. Yes, sir. The next day, previous to the process of embalmment, with some medical friends, Dr. Curtis and Dr. Woodward of the army, and in the presence, also, of Surgeon-General Dr. Barnes, the examination was made. We traced the wound through the brain; and the ball was found in the anterior part of the same side of the brain, the left side,—a large ball, resembling those balls which are shot from the pistol known as the Derringer,—an unusually large ball; that is, a larger ball than those used in the ordinary pocket revolvers."

In his article in The Lincoln Assassination Riddle Blaine includes a smaller version of the photo below. Based on what James Ferguson said, the photo shows the approximate position of Lincoln's head (leaning forward, looking down and to the left) and helps explain the path of the bullet.

---Abraham Lincoln photographed by Mathew Brady in 1861---

[davg2000]

OK, Roger, that appears to settle the matter. I'm pretty sure that my understanding of AL's head wound came from "Twenty Days." One would suppose that the authors of that book had access to Dr. Stone's notes and reports.

Thank you for writing Dr. Houmes about this.

[Houmes]

(05-30-2016 10:00 PM)ReignetteC Wrote:  [quote='L Verge' pid='42436' dateline='1420499254']
I would think that someone at some time would have checked to see if the pockets themselves were stained with blood???

---

BTW: Were the gloves found in the pocket of Lincoln's greatcoat or in the pocket of the frock coat to his suit? I have never seen that differentiated.

It would seem to me that one generally takes off one's gloves and puts them in the pocket of the outer coat (i.e. the greatcoat). Lincoln had removed the greatcoat upon entering the box, had he not? The blood would have run into the pockets of his frock coat. Is that where the gloves were found? Not in the pockets of the outer greatcoat? Could the gloves have dropped on the floor at some point and absorbed some of Rathbone's blood? So many questions, so many possibilities.

___________________________________________________________

I found your excellent query while reading through some threads (vacation allows such pleasure). Lincoln was wearing his overcoat (great coat ) when Booth shot him. Per Rathbone's affidavit: "The president seated himself in this chair, and except that he once left this chair for the purpose of putting on his overcoat, remained so seated until he was shot."

I've always been leery of Lincoln blood relics, as there's frequently a shady provenance, an explanation more legend then fact, and/or a lack of scientific analysis. Lincoln's black frock coat (a suit or body coat with a tail) and other clothing were obtained by the National Park Service in 1968 from the descendants of Alphonso Donn, a doorkeeper at the White House. It was a gift to him from Mary Todd Lincoln. In a letter dated 1977 Harold Peterson (former Chief Curator of the National Park Service) reported how he helped clean and treat the President's clothing, including the Brooks Brothers overcoat. His letter mentioned blood stains only on the collar, but did not specify whether it was the frock coat or the overcoat. In a 2007 Washington Post article there was mention that both coats had blood stains, but not where the stains were located. There was mention that the president's pants also had blood stains, on both knees. He was slumped over when Dr. Leale arrived in the box, and was immediately placed on the on the floor to be examined and treated. Newton Ferree, a discharged soldier, went into the theatre box after Lincoln had been carried over to the Petersen house and found Mr. Lincoln's shirt collar "in a pool of blood." I have only ever seen one assessment of a blood relic--by the then-named Armed Forces Institute of Pathology--after assessing a blood-stained sheet from Lincoln's deathbed. Blood could have come from Lincoln's head wound, but it also could have been from Major Rathbone's knife wound. The gloves from President Lincoln's pockets certainly have distinctive stains, but unless they fell out of his coat at same point I would question : Is it blood? If so, which victim did it come from?

[ReignetteC]

(06-01-2016 10:13 AM)Houmes Wrote:  

(05-30-2016 10:00 PM)ReignetteC Wrote:  [quote='L Verge' pid='42436' dateline='1420499254']
I would think that someone at some time would have checked to see if the pockets themselves were stained with blood???

---

BTW: Were the gloves found in the pocket of Lincoln's greatcoat or in the pocket of the frock coat to his suit? I have never seen that differentiated.

It would seem to me that one generally takes off one's gloves and puts them in the pocket of the outer coat (i.e. the greatcoat). Lincoln had removed the greatcoat upon entering the box, had he not? The blood would have run into the pockets of his frock coat. Is that where the gloves were found? Not in the pockets of the outer greatcoat? Could the gloves have dropped on the floor at some point and absorbed some of Rathbone's blood? So many questions, so many possibilities.

___________________________________________________________

I found your excellent query while reading through some threads (vacation allows such pleasure). Lincoln was wearing his overcoat (great coat ) when Booth shot him. Per Rathbone's affidavit: "The president seated himself in this chair, and except that he once left this chair for the purpose of putting on his overcoat, remained so seated until he was shot."

I've always been leery of Lincoln blood relics, as there's frequently a shady provenance, an explanation more legend then fact, and/or a lack of scientific analysis. Lincoln's black frock coat (a suit or body coat with a tail) and other clothing were obtained by the National Park Service in 1968 from the descendants of Alphonso Donn, a doorkeeper at the White House. It was a gift to him from Mary Todd Lincoln. In a letter dated 1977 Harold Peterson (former Chief Curator of the National Park Service) reported how he helped clean and treat the President's clothing, including the Brooks Brothers overcoat. His letter mentioned blood stains only on the collar, but did not specify whether it was the frock coat or the overcoat. In a 2007 Washington Post article there was mention that both coats had blood stains, but not where the stains were located. There was mention that the president's pants also had blood stains, on both knees. He was slumped over when Dr. Leale arrived in the box, and was immediately placed on the on the floor to be examined and treated. Newton Ferree, a discharged soldier, went into the theatre box after Lincoln had been carried over to the Petersen house and found Mr. Lincoln's shirt collar "in a pool of blood." I have only ever seen one assessment of a blood relic--by the then-named Armed Forces Institute of Pathology--after assessing a blood-stained sheet from Lincoln's deathbed. Blood could have come from Lincoln's head wound, but it also could have been from Major Rathbone's knife wound. The gloves from President Lincoln's pockets certainly have distinctive stains, but unless they fell out of his coat at same point I would question : Is it blood? If so, which victim did it come from?

Thanks, Dr Houmes. In 1968, shortly after the Department of the Interior acquired the relics, it sent the five pieces - frock coat, vest, trousers, cravat, and overcoat -to the National Park Service's conservation laboratory for cleaning and restoration. Colonel James Rice oversaw the multi-step process, and he later provided a summary of the monumental task in the February, 1969, edition of Museum News. "Each garment was inspected for appearance," he wrote. "This inspection revealed that there were several areas of soil of a grease-like appearance . . . . These areas, which were unsightly, were to be found mainly on the backs of the coat collar, near the pocket openings, at the inside edges of sleeve cuffs and at occasional spots on other parts of the garments. There were also one or two small, rust-brown surface-eroded spots on the upper part of the overcoat which, from their position and appearance, were assumed to be blood stains that had changed by oxidation through the years to ferric oxide. No confirmation of this surmise was attempted, however (emphasis added).

[RJNorton]

Thanks Blaine and Reignette. I have read various descriptions of exactly how much President Lincoln bled from his wound. I think I even recall one eyewitness saying the wound hardly bled at all, but I do not recall where I read that.

[Gene C]

I think it was Dr. Leale. Didn't he have a comment about having a difficult time finding the wound because it bled so little at first.
However, at the Peterson House, they would change the towels under President Lincoln's head every time Mary Lincoln would enter the room, because the site of his blood caused her great distress.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Whenever Dr. Leale removed a clot, blood oozed out. Yet I doubt it was much.

[Houmes]

Kudos to Eva, Gene C, and Roger.

I forgot to mention the effect of timing after the shooting. I estimate 5-10 minutes before Dr Leale entered the box (struggling with others to try and open the door Booth had barricaded, with Major Rathbone frantically working on the other side), then Dr. King arriving quickly through the same door while Dr. Taft was being hoisted up and over the box railing. In that short space of time Lincoln's wound had already clotted off, which suggests not much drainage. The bullet sheared off a major vein in the back of the head, whereas a major artery would have produced a much larger blood loss. Most blood relics I've seen have small patches of blood, and the grease spots on the coat are probably from the pomade staining the rocking chair. Even relics from the Petersen house have either discrete, small areas of stain or thin stains in a widely dispersed pattern.

[ReignetteC]

From the Detroit Press, April 8, 2015 re: rocker

A stain on the chair's back is often believed to be blood, but it's actually water damage from its years in the Smithsonian warehouse. During conservation efforts in 1999, two distinct spots tested positive for blood. Unfortunately, because of the inability to pursue DNA testing at the time, it's unclear who the blood belongs to.

Lincoln's wound did not bleed a lot and he slumped over, unconscious in the chair. One of the president's guests that evening, Major Henry Rathbone was stabbed severely as he tried to prevent Booth from escaping. He bled profusely.


You'll find the article here: http://www.detroitnews.com/story/enterta.../25494961/