Lincoln's embalmment

[loetar44]

(01-08-2015 05:25 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Toia, on the same thread I posted above (see post #20 ff - http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...age-2.html ) we once discussed the possibility of Lincoln's present day survival in case of instant appropriate medical care. I personally believe he would have had a good chance of survival.

IF 1865 were 2015 .... Abraham Lincoln might have survived, who knows. And he might have been able to think. But IF he had lived, he would according to me, at the very least been (partially or totally) blind, inarticulate or unable to speak, unsteady on his feet, numb in certain regions of his body, maybe paralyzed. No normal communication possible. Lincoln would have been disabled and incapacitated. That would have caused an even more chaotic situation, because in 1865 no provision existed for the VEEP or anyone else to take over as chief executive for an incapacitated president. In 1865 the Costitution contained provisions for the transfer of presidential power only when a president died. There were (until the 25th Amendement in 1967) no procedures by which an incapacitated president could be replaced.

[STS Lincolnite]

(01-08-2015 06:52 AM)loetar44 Wrote:  Lincoln would have been disabled and incapacitated. That would have caused an even more chaotic situation, because in 1865 no provision existed for the VEEP or anyone else to take over as chief executive for an incapacitated president. In 1865 the Costitution contained provisions for the transfer of presidential power only when a president died. There were (until the 25th Amendement in 1967) no procedures by which an incapacitated president could be replaced.

I know this is a little of the topic of the thread, so I apologize, but I found Kees comments to be thought provoking.

Those individuals that continue to propogate the idea that Stanton was involved in Lincoln's assassination often cite the fact that Stanton inappropriately took over the government in the assasination aftermath. However, I wonder what the alternative was. As Kees pointed out there was no formal process in place for transfer of authority in the case of an incapacitated President. The Vice President at this period of time was little more than an afterthought in regards to running the government. The leaders of in the legislative branch (speaker of house, etc.) were not part of the executive branch and would likely not have been particularly familiar with the President's day to day plans/process for performing his duties in regards to the impending end to the war, reconsturction and all the other more mundane duties. So who is left. I would reason it would have been generally acceptable in 1865 for a cabinet member (most familiar with the President's plans) to act on behalf of the incapacited (not deceased) President until such time as he recovered or if he died until such time as the Vice President would be elevated to President. I would next reason that Seward (because of his political pedigree and role as Secreteray of State - often a springboard to the Presidency) and Stanton (because of his role as Secretary of War during what was still technically war time - and the killing of the President which may have been part of a wartime action) would have been the logical first choices. Seward was of course himself incapacitated by Powell, so we are left with Stanton. How he performed in his role immediately following the assassination and what role he played or should have played after Johnson was inaugurated could certainly be debated but I can't really see how his assuming control in the stead of the incopacitated President somehow illustrates his complicity in the assassination.

I would love to hear others thoughts.

Again, I apologize for going off thread topic but I wanted to write while the thoughts were in my head. Roger please feel free to move this particular post elsewhere as you see fit.

[Gene C]

For those of you old enough to remember...

"In 1981, following the March 30 assassination attempt on Reagan, Haig asserted before reporters "I am in control here" as a result of Reagan's hospitalization, indicating that, while President Reagan had not "transfer[red] the helm", Haig was in fact directing White House Crisis Management until Vice President Bush arrived in Washington to assume that role.

Constitutionally, gentlemen, you have the President, the Vice President, and the Secretary of State in that order, and should the President decide he wants to transfer the helm to the Vice President, he will do so. He has not done that. As of now, I am in control here, in the White House, pending return of the Vice President and in close touch with him. If something came up, I would check with him, of course.

—Alexander Haig, Alexander Haig, autobiographical profile in TIME Magazine, April 2, 1984[26]The US Constitution, including both the presidential line of succession and the 25th Amendment, dictates what happens when a president is incapacitated. However, the holders of the two offices between the Vice President and the Secretary of State, the Speaker of the House (at the time, Tip O'Neill) and the President pro tempore of the Senate (at the time, Strom Thurmond), would be required under US law (3 U.S.C. § 19) to resign their positions in order for either of them to become acting President. Considering that Vice President Bush was not immediately available, Haig's statement reflected political reality, if not necessarily legal reality. Haig later said,

I wasn't talking about transition. I was talking about the executive branch, who is running the government. That was the question asked. It was not, "Who is in line should the President die?"

—Alexander Haig, Alexander Haig interview with 60 Minutes II April 23, 2001"

***from Wikepedia - article about Alexander Haig ***

[LincolnToddFan]

(01-08-2015 05:25 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Toia, on the same thread I posted above (see post #20 ff - http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...age-2.html ) we once discussed the possibility of Lincoln's present day survival in case of instant appropriate medical care. I personally believe he would have had a good chance of survival.

Thank you Eva!

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(01-08-2015 06:02 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Hi Toia. You can read about Dr. Houmes here:

http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/linc...edical.htm

That's right...thanks Roger. In fact I remember reading that article long ago, before I even joined here.

I agree with Kees. Even if AL's life had been saved he would have been intellectually and mentally unrecognizable from the man we have come to know down through history. I think he would have been depressed and unhappy. Being unable to hear or see very well and unable to articulate as brilliantly might have been a fate worse than death for him.

[loetar44]

Some thoughts: I think that Edwin Stanton would likely have played a greater role if Lincoln had miraculously survived. Andrew Johnson would certainly not automatically have taken charge. When Garfield was shot he died 11 weeks later. That was the first real issue with presidential disability, but “who exactly was in charge” in that time span, i.e. who made the decisions that had to be made on matters of state? Remember that Woodrow Wilson’s wife essentially took over when her husband fell seriously ill.

[Houmes]

(01-08-2015 02:06 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  

(01-08-2015 05:25 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Toia, on the same thread I posted above we once discussed the possibility of Lincoln's present day survival in case of instant appropriate medical care. I personally believe he would have had a good chance of survival.

That's right...thanks Roger. In fact I remember reading that article long ago, before I even joined here.

I agree with Kees. Even if AL's life had been saved he would have been intellectually and mentally unrecognizable from the man we have come to know down through history. I think he would have been depressed and unhappy. Being unable to hear or see very well and unable to articulate as brilliantly might have been a fate worse than death for him.

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree. Through the years the various autopsy reports and recollections have been debated regarding the correct bullet path. Most of these reports were written hours or days later. The only primary report made during the autopsy was by Dr. Stone, scribbled on a druggist's prescription pad while the participants were discussing what they saw. Dr. Stone also wrote, later using his original notes, a longer final report. His later report correlates quite well with the report of Dr. Woodward, one of the two pathologists performing Lincoln's autopsy, and both agree that the bullet ended up on the left side. Two caveats are important: the first is that the drawing appearing in Dr. Lattimer's book was meant to be an approximation of two potential bullet paths, and was not drawn to scale--too often people assume the drawing is fact; the other is that Dr. Stone's original notes are much more revealing than his later report. What he didn't write later but included in his first note was the bullet "...entered the left ventricle...followed the course of the ventricle accurately...ploughing thro upper part of thalamus...(ending) just above the corpus striatum of left side." All the other autopsy reports, including the official one, are far less precise. From Stone's record, unless the bullet suddenly veered off course it couldn't have ended up behind the right eye. What it did do was destroy half of President Lincoln's brain. Neuropathologists today call the thalamus "high value real estate." It's in the critical central part of the brain and functions as a relay station for all sensory nerve centers in the brain, except for sense of smell. It's unheard of for a neurosurgeon today to consider repairing a simultaneously ravaged sinus, ventricle, and thalamus. The second Booth pulled the trigger of his deringer, there was no way Lincoln could survive--then or now.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Thanks, Dr. Houmes, for this info, and all the other education on this!!!

[RJNorton]

I second Eva. Blaine, your contributions are an invaluable and extraordinary resource for all of us. Thank you!

[STS Lincolnite]

Blaine, I will add my name to the list of those thanking you for your post.

I read through posts regarding the bullet, path, etc. and after work tonight was planning to sit down, dig through materials from my grad school neuroanatomy class (not my practice area and too many years ago to accurately remember ) and work through the most likely damaged structures and what the most likely clinical presentation/outcomes would have been. I will still do some self re-educating but you have saved me a lot of time and narrowed my focus considerably!

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Blaine, do you have, are you aware of or could you recommend a diagram (drawn to scale, etc.) that would be superior to Dr. Lattimer's? I am in the process of preparing a talk on the assassination for the 150th anniversery and I know the question of whether or not he could have survived today will come up. I want to be prepared to answer questions, and photos/diagrams always help people understand - myself included!

[loetar44]

Agree wholeheartedly! Kudos to Dr. Houmes for the fantastic explanation!

[LincolnToddFan]

[The second Booth pulled the trigger of his deringer, there was no way Lincoln could survive--then or now]// quote

Hi Dr. Houmes-

This is exactly what I stated first,(post #73) and I thought you disagreed with me and said that AL might have survived? Or did I misunderstand?

Thanks again-fascinating info.

[Houmes]

(01-11-2015 02:05 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  [The second Booth pulled the trigger of his deringer, there was no way Lincoln could survive--then or now]// quote

Hi Dr. Houmes-

This is exactly what I stated first,(post #73) and I thought you disagreed with me and said that AL might have survived? Or did I misunderstand?

Thanks again-fascinating info.

I've reread Post #73 and I don't see where there was any disagreement.

[LincolnToddFan]

Ah, you are right Dr...it was Eva whose post immediately followed mine. Thanks for clarification!

I tend to feel it was quite hopeless too.

Could it be the fact that the president lived for nine hours-remarkable when you think about it- with only the rudimentary medical attention give some people the idea that modern medicine might have saved him?

[RJNorton]

Many thanks to Blaine for sending these images of the May 1958 Lincoln Lore which reference this topic. (Possibly folks will need to use the "zoom" feature in their browsers in order to read.)

[BettyO]

Roger -

Is there a better image? Still too blurry to read - Thanks! Fascinating subject!