(05-22-2018 03:46 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(05-21-2018 10:38 PM)kerry Wrote:  Canavan, Kathryn. Lincoln's Final Hours: Conspiracy, Terror, and the Assassination of America's Greatest President (Kindle Locations 1456-1458). The University Press of Kentucky. Kindle Edition.

Kathy is a member here and has posted quite often. Her username is Lincoln Wonk. In addition to Kathy's, another book I would recommend is A. Lincoln: His Last 24 Hours by W. Emerson Reck. These books clear up most of the false stories that have been told over the years, and people like Loring and Wood are not even mentioned in either book.

That's cool, I didn't know she was a member. I read part of Reck's book - it was really good, but I haven't ordered it yet. I think it's possible someone like Wood was just overlooked in most accounts, but I do get the sense that Loring probably made up his story, along with many others. The Taft/Leale accounts are impossible to reconcile. The more I research, the more I realize how bad memory is. The amount of people carrying Lincoln and what Booth said remains impossible to figure out - like 20 credible witnesses have different answers. I think there's enough evidence that Laura Keene was there, but it is interesting that Harris insisted otherwise and Taft's sister said he never mentioned her presence. I think what is most likely is that both of them had their attention focused elsewhere and never registered her. "I Saw Lincoln Shot" is interesting for showing the divergences in people's memories.

Kerry,
In regards to Jacob Soles account of carrying Lincoln's body, see this thread about his changing account printed over the years in newspapers:

http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...70214.html

(05-22-2018 12:49 PM)Steve Wrote:  Kerry,
In regards to Jacob Soles account of carrying Lincoln's body, see this thread about his changing account printed over the years in newspapers:

http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...70214.html

Thanks - I just reread "We Saw Lincoln Shot," and it seems Soles' account is pretty dubious. The author says no soldiers were mentioned carrying the body in any contemporary accounts, but the book had one that said Rathbone requested six soldiers to carry the body. He says Daggart is the only one confirmed, but from that thread it looks like Bedee was, also. We'll probably never know - strange that it wasn't reported at the time, given the other details known. The books is so good at showing how the stories evolved and how people picked up the narrative even when they were eyewitnesses.

There is not the slightest indication Booth broke his leg on stage in contemporary accounts. He fell awkwardly, but everything says he ran across the stage. That became conventional wisdom much later, and then all the accounts change to him limping across the stage. One guy says he didn't break his leg, but did break some of his small ankle bones. How on earth would he know that? The worst/best is the account of a 90-something woman, which really should have been excluded or at least acknowledged as probable senility. It's treated with a weird solemnity and used as evidence of certain points. She kept it a secret for 60 years, she said. What really happened was that Booth fell and broke his leg so badly the bone was sticking out, and he couldn't get up. Laura Keene patted his head. Then a lasso came out from offstage and whisked him away - the work of his co-conspirators. Quite a story!

It has a lot of great details - Stanton told one man not to admit anyone but doctors. Others kept coming to the door, and for the persistent ones, he brought their names to Stanton. Sometimes, Stanton would say "Admit them quietly." Other times, he would say nothing. He didn't mess around.

(05-22-2018 12:29 PM)kerry Wrote:  ...........
I think there's enough evidence that Laura Keene was there, but it is interesting that Harris insisted otherwise and Taft's sister said he never mentioned her presence. I think what is most likely is that both of them had their attention focused elsewhere and never registered her. "I Saw Lincoln Shot" is interesting for showing the divergences in people's memories.

I suggest that any description of the scene where Lincoln is lying down in the box which has a reference to Laura Keene holding his head in her lap must be treated (in toto) with the utmost suspicion.

I just cannot picture him flat on his back and her coming into the box, pushing past the doctors, kneeling down (or sitting down on the floor maybe? or cross legged!? ) and somehow lifting his head onto her lap. And what then? Did she stroke his hair? How do you terminate the process of holding a dying man's head on your lap? Do you take the head off and let it bump gently on the floor, stand up in a lady like way and move away ?

(05-23-2018 06:25 AM)AussieMick Wrote:  

(05-22-2018 12:29 PM)kerry Wrote:  ...........
I think there's enough evidence that Laura Keene was there, but it is interesting that Harris insisted otherwise and Taft's sister said he never mentioned her presence. I think what is most likely is that both of them had their attention focused elsewhere and never registered her. "I Saw Lincoln Shot" is interesting for showing the divergences in people's memories.

I suggest that any description of the scene where Lincoln is lying down in the box which has a reference to Laura Keene holding his head in her lap must be treated (in toto) with the utmost suspicion.

I just cannot picture him flat on his back and her coming into the box, pushing past the doctors, kneeling down (or sitting down on the floor maybe? or cross legged!? ) and somehow lifting his head onto her lap. And what then? Did she stroke his hair? How do you terminate the process of holding a dying man's head on your lap? Do you take the head off and let it bump gently on the floor, stand up in a lady like way and move away ?

Michael, there is a side of me that sure wants to agree with what you say. But if it didn't happen this way, how does one explain what Seaton Munroe said?

(05-23-2018 12:46 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  ..........

Michael, there is a side of me that sure wants to agree with what you say. But if it didn't happen this way, how does one explain what Seaton Munroe said?

I hate to appear cynical (yeah, right! I hear you say) ... but I see that Seaton Munroe was an attorney. To quote Samuel Johnson "I do not care to speak ill of any man behind his back, but I believe the gentleman is an attorney." And of course Mario Puzo, "A lawyer can steal more than a 100 men with guns."

Plus (and I post from out of the US so maybe I get only bad views through the media), I see that Seaton Munroe was a Washington attorney.

Just say'in.

What of Spencer Bronson's April 16, 1865, letter stating, "Miss Keene . . . went around into the box holding the President head while an examination was being made"? He may have been giving a secondhand account, but it's an early secondhand account. (I have no idea what Bronson's profession was, if that's important to his veracity, which I don't think it is unless it was that of a con man.)

Hey, attorney here! (non-practicing, if that's any defense!)

I agree the Laura Keene story sounds rather silly. However, the evidence for it seems pretty strong. What possibly happened was that she went in with water and was standing over him with it, or sitting by him, and his head was kind of lolling around awkwardly as they worked on him. The doctors wanted the water and thus tolerated her presence. She may have asked if she could hold his head to 'comfort' him, not knowing if he was possibly aware in any way. After a few minutes, they asked her to leave, and the doctors took his head to examine it. Just a thought.

She was spotted sitting with Mary, trying to comfort her. Perhaps Mary was the one who reached out for his head, and Keene was next to her, and people got confused? She may have been cradling his head rather than actually putting it in her lap.

It seems clear she did enter the box very soon after the shooting with water, in any event.

Kerry,
My apologies ... I'm sure there are many good attorneys.
And you make a good argument in defending "the Keene was there" opinion. Yep, it does seem possibly true.

One reason why I still am on the fence regarding Laura Keene's presence is that in an 1865 report Dr. Leale made no mention of Keene. It wasn't until 1909 when Dr. Leale added Keene to the story. Some people feel Dr. Leale did some embellishing in 1909.

This is from his 1865 report. He mentions several people by name but no mention of Laura Keene.


"I immediately ran to the Presidents box and as soon as the door was opened was admitted and introduced to Mrs. Lincoln when she exclaimed several times, “O Doctor, do what you can for him, do what you can”! I told her we would do all that we possibly could.

When I entered the box the ladies were very much excited. Mr. Lincoln was seated in a high backed arm-chair with his head leaning towards his right side supported by Mrs. Lincoln who was weeping bitterly. Miss Harris was near her left and behind the President.

While approaching the President I sent a gentleman for brandy and another for water.

When I reached the President he was in a state of general paralysis, his eyes were closed and he was in a profoundly comatose condition, while his breathing was intermittent and exceedingly stertorous. I placed my finger on his right radial pulse but could perceive no movement of the artery. As two gentlemen now arrived, I requested them to assist me to place him in a recumbent position, and as I held his head and shoulders, while doing this my hand came in contact with a clot of blood near his left shoulder.

Supposing that he had been stabbed there I asked a gentleman to cut his coat and shirt off from that part, to enable me if possible to check the hemorrhage which I supposed took place from the subclavian artery or some of its branches.

Before they had proceeded as far as the elbow I commenced to examine his head (as no wound near the shoulder was found) and soon passed my fingers over a large firm clot of blood situated about one inch below the superior curved line of the occipital bone.

The coagula I easily removed and passed the little finger of my left hand through the perfectly smooth opening made by the ball, and found that it had entered the encephalon.

As soon as I removed my finger a slight oozing of blood followed and his breathing became more regular and less stertorous. The brandy and water now arrived and a small quantity was placed in his mouth, which passed into his stomach where it was retained.

Dr. C. F. Taft and Dr. A. F. A. King now arrived and after a moments consultation we agreed to have him removed to the nearest house, which we immediately did, the above named with others assisting.

When we arrived at the door of the box, the passage was found to be densly crowded by those who were rushing towards that part of the theatre. I called out twice “Guards clear the passage,” which was so soon done that we proceeded without a moments delay with the President and were not in the slightest interrupted until he was placed in bed in the house of Mr. Peterson, opposite the theatre, in less than 20 minutes from the time he was assassinated."

(05-24-2018 04:30 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  One reason why I still am on the fence regarding Laura Keene's presence is that in an 1865 report Dr. Leale made no mention of Keene. It wasn't until 1909 when Dr. Leale added Keene to the story. Some people feel Dr. Leale did some embellishing in 1909.

This is from his 1865 report. He mentions several people by name but no mention of Laura Keene.


"I immediately ran to the Presidents box and as soon as the door was opened was admitted and introduced to Mrs. Lincoln when she exclaimed several times, “O Doctor, do what you can for him, do what you can”! I told her we would do all that we possibly could.

When I entered the box the ladies were very much excited. Mr. Lincoln was seated in a high backed arm-chair with his head leaning towards his right side supported by Mrs. Lincoln who was weeping bitterly. Miss Harris was near her left and behind the President.

While approaching the President I sent a gentleman for brandy and another for water.

When I reached the President he was in a state of general paralysis, his eyes were closed and he was in a profoundly comatose condition, while his breathing was intermittent and exceedingly stertorous. I placed my finger on his right radial pulse but could perceive no movement of the artery. As two gentlemen now arrived, I requested them to assist me to place him in a recumbent position, and as I held his head and shoulders, while doing this my hand came in contact with a clot of blood near his left shoulder.

Supposing that he had been stabbed there I asked a gentleman to cut his coat and shirt off from that part, to enable me if possible to check the hemorrhage which I supposed took place from the subclavian artery or some of its branches.

Before they had proceeded as far as the elbow I commenced to examine his head (as no wound near the shoulder was found) and soon passed my fingers over a large firm clot of blood situated about one inch below the superior curved line of the occipital bone.

The coagula I easily removed and passed the little finger of my left hand through the perfectly smooth opening made by the ball, and found that it had entered the encephalon.

As soon as I removed my finger a slight oozing of blood followed and his breathing became more regular and less stertorous. The brandy and water now arrived and a small quantity was placed in his mouth, which passed into his stomach where it was retained.

Dr. C. F. Taft and Dr. A. F. A. King now arrived and after a moments consultation we agreed to have him removed to the nearest house, which we immediately did, the above named with others assisting.

When we arrived at the door of the box, the passage was found to be densly crowded by those who were rushing towards that part of the theatre. I called out twice “Guards clear the passage,” which was so soon done that we proceeded without a moments delay with the President and were not in the slightest interrupted until he was placed in bed in the house of Mr. Peterson, opposite the theatre, in less than 20 minutes from the time he was assassinated."

It could be that since he was writing for an official audience, he deemed it imprudent to mention the presence of an actress in the box. I find his use of "The brandy and water now arrived" to be interesting. Either he didn't remember who brought them or deemed it unimportant, or he decided not to mention that Keene had been the water-toter.

What strikes me as more strange in the 1865 report is his failure to mention his efforts at artificial respiration (I was reading another thread on this last night) that appear in the 1909 recollection. Surely those would have been of interest to the officials he addressed in 1865.

At first, I was inclined to believe Keene was in the box because some of the first-hand accounts of people in the audience, written within days of the assassination, say that Keene went to the box after her appeal for calm. So, the belief she was there comes from that very night. But after reading Clara Harris' emphatic denial that Keene was there, I'm inclined to believe she wasn't.

The two people who would be in the best position to know for sure would be Lt. Crawford, who was instructed by Rathbone to guard the door, and Maj. Potter who escorted Mary Lincoln to Peterson House if the newspaper accounts of Keene escorting Mary to Peterson House have any basis in reality. (The newspapers incorrectly had Potter as one of the people carrying Lincoln's body instead of escorting Mary.)

According to Emmerson Reck's A. Lincoln: His Last 24 Hours, Crawford wrote a an 1887 letter to John Hay about the assassination. Apparently, Hay tracked him down for more information. I'm going to try and see if I can find that a copy of that letter to see what it says.

I can't find a copy of the 13 Jan. 1887 letter Lt. Crawford sent to John Hay. Here's a link to the page of Reck's book that discusses the letter:

https://books.google.com/books?id=6vJ1tH...onepage&q=

Google Books cuts off the account. In the reference section Reck says the letter was located in the Illinois State Historical Library, now a part of the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library and Museum. I couldn't find the letter listed on the Library's online catalog, but I don't if it would just be filed away in a larger collection or even still cataloged at all.

The captain in the New Hampshire regiment referred to by Crawford was Capt. Edwin Bedee of the 12th New Hampshire who was given charge of the papers Lincoln had on him with instructions to give them to John Hay. Failing to find Hay that night, according to Bedee's account he gave the papers to Stanton. Although, Crawford's account of how the papers were returned seems a little different.

I can't find a first-person account in Bedee's exact words, but I did find this 1897 account of Bedee's claims written by Asa W. Bartlett who interviewed Bedee. It's followed by copies of some of the documents related to the matter (pages 295-299):

https://books.google.com/books?id=TXAhAA...&q&f=false

In his account Bedee said he followed a doctor (Taft) climbing up into the box. His account differs from Taft's in claiming they got up into the box before Leale. But his claim of following Taft up to the box seems to be confirmed by Clara Harris' 18 April 1865 affidavit in which she says she helped two uniformed people up into the box, one a surgeon and one a soldier shortly after:

   
(ref: New York Times - 23 April 1865 pg. 3)

Another point that Reck touches on has to do with the blood on Laura Keene's dress. Reck notes that several accounts maintained that Lincoln's wound did very little bleeding. So could the blood on Keene's dress have come from Rathbone's wound? One person who thought so was a close friend of Dr. Taft's --> Mrs. John B. Wright. Mrs. Wright said she doubted Laura Keene was ever in the box because Dr. Taft told her all the details of what went on in the box, but he never mentioned Laura Keene being there. Mrs. Wright felt Laura Keene "could easily have got blood in a variety of ways and places, for Major Rathbone was so terribly slashed by Booth's knife in the box that his blood was smeared all over the woodwork and made a trail out of the theatre."

Here's a different take on things.

Thank you to Steve for sending these accounts by Silas Owen, the same person William H. Flood said accompanied him to Ford's Theatre and helped with Lincoln's body. The first account comes from the National Tribune (DC) on Thursday, February 5, 1903. The second one was in the Sedalia Democrat on Thursday, November 26, 1896. The last one was in the Democrat and Chronicle (Rochester) on Sunday, November 20, 1895.

Among other things we are told that Booth did not break his leg in the fall to the stage; rather he broke a tendon. And the blood on Laura Keene's dress came from Booth slashing his knife at her as he passed her on the stage during his escape from Ford's Theatre.