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VP Beast Butler?
12-06-2014, 12:36 PM
Post: #46
RE: VP Beast Butler?
(12-05-2014 07:10 PM)Wild Bill Wrote:  I have no argument with this--which overlooks our original discussion of Butler's propriety in Reconstructing the South, particularly Louisiana. Lincoln and Grant were vowed careful about dropping Butler as a general despite his obvious shortcomings until after the 1864 election when the end of the war was in sight and his political pull in Massachusetts and with the Radicals was lessened by the failure of the Radical Democracy to steal the 1864 nomination from Lincoln

Gee, once again the military was left floundering while the politicians played politics? How surprising!
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12-10-2014, 08:14 PM
Post: #47
RE: VP Beast Butler?
(12-06-2014 08:35 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Personally I had never seen that photo before. Thank you for posting it, Dan! (sorry, Dan, but I hope the Cubs sign Lester)

Congratulations on getting Lester Roger!

The Celts just signed this small forward, so it takes a bit of the sting away.

http://www.enjoyillinois.com/home/miniabe#big10
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12-12-2014, 08:06 AM
Post: #48
RE: VP Beast Butler?
A couple of quick thoughts.....Norfolk was an occupied city, same as New Orleans. While the occupying forces were stringent, they were nothing like Butler. One thing the US Government did to antagonize the citizens of Norfolk was the use of US Colored Troops as part of their occupying forces. This caused an altercation between a leading citizen, Dr. David Minton Wright and the occupying forces. The result was the death of a Union officer and Dr. Wright being hanged.

The James Gang chose to rob one particular bank, partly because Butler and his son-in-law had large deposits there.

Ben Butler had a home in Rockport Massachusetts that is still in the family. The descendants are not well liked by many in the Rockport community.
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12-12-2014, 10:39 AM
Post: #49
RE: VP Beast Butler?
Oddly, Galveston, Texas, which had a reputation of being against occupation forces after the Civil War during Reconstruction, especially if black soldiers, lauded the all black 10th US Colored Infantry for its exemplary behavior in 1866. They were glad to get rid of the all white 17th US Inf which was known for its rowdyism and picking fights with citizens. The 17th soon burned the business district of near-by Brenham, Texas, to the ground. The 10th was mustered out. See Richter, "The Brenham Fire of 1866: A Texas Reconstruction Atrocity," Louisiana Studies: An Interdisciplinary Journal of the South, 14 (1975), 287-314.

The bank in Northfield, Min., was owned by Butler's son-in-law, Adelbert Ames, who was once the military governor of Mississippi. The relevant books are TJ Stiles, Jesse James: The Last Rebel of the Civil War and Mark Lee Gardner, Shot All to Hell: Jesse James, The Northfield Raid, and the Wild West's Greatest Escape. They are both good reads. I also like Will Henry's The Raiders on the James-Younger Gang. But it is historical fiction (more history than fiction) like my Last Confederate Heroes and some may not like that format.
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12-13-2014, 08:17 AM
Post: #50
RE: VP Beast Butler?
I recommend "Shot All to Hell". That's where I read about the James Gang/ Butler connection. Thank you Bill for your contributions here.
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12-15-2014, 10:38 AM
Post: #51
RE: VP Beast Butler?
(12-12-2014 08:06 AM)Jim Garrett Wrote:  A couple of quick thoughts.....Norfolk was an occupied city, same as New Orleans. While the occupying forces were stringent, they were nothing like Butler. One thing the US Government did to antagonize the citizens of Norfolk was the use of US Colored Troops as part of their occupying forces. This caused an altercation between a leading citizen, Dr. David Minton Wright and the occupying forces. The result was the death of a Union officer and Dr. Wright being hanged.

The James Gang chose to rob one particular bank, partly because Butler and his son-in-law had large deposits there.

Ben Butler had a home in Rockport Massachusetts that is still in the family. The descendants are not well liked by many in the Rockport community.

The account I read on this, by UNC historian William Powell, indicates that Dr. Wright was shouting insults to black Union soldiers patrolling the streets in 1863, and then shot and killed a white Union officer who demanded that he desist. http://ncpedia.org/biography/wright-david-minton Martial law had been imposed, and Wright seemed to resent black soldiers enforcing it. Sounds like he earned his punishment.

Back to Butler, shall Jesse James be our moral standard bearer here? Undecided
Regarding Rockport, do today's residents not like the descendants of Ben Butler because of something they are currently doing to annoy their neighbors, or because of some kind of bigotry against their ancestry?
I'm reminded that Ben Butler was elected time and again from his Massachusetts district, was elected governor of Mass (1883-84), was nominated by the Greenback Party for president, and by all accounts was admired as an advocate of progressive policies affecting blacks, women, and civil liberty for all. Isn't that why he is/was unpopular among white Southerners or those sympathetic with their cause?

Don H. Doyle, author of The Cause of All Nations: An International History of America's Civil War, Basic Books. https://www.facebook.com/causeofallnations
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12-15-2014, 10:47 AM
Post: #52
RE: VP Beast Butler?
I can understand why Butler was not well liked by Southerners,but not by his soldiers!
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12-15-2014, 11:02 AM
Post: #53
RE: VP Beast Butler?
He probably could have used a good press agent or "spin doctor"
Smile

So when is this "Old Enough To Know Better" supposed to kick in?
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12-15-2014, 11:49 AM
Post: #54
RE: VP Beast Butler?
If I remember correctly, TJ Stiles, Jesse James, the Last Rebel of the Civil War, make a point of how Missouri was about 75% for the Union in 1865 but 75% for the Democrats (the heirs of secession) by 1876, which he in large part attributes to James' propaganda letters and rationales printed and encouraged by Kansas City newspapers, particularly Major John Edwards (he was an adjutant for JO Shelby's Missouri Cavalry Brigade [CSA]) and the Kansas City Times (he was the editor).

This gets into the whole realm of social banditry and the viciousness of the CW in Missouri, which I suspect Don1946 would reject. To show how horrible we Southerners truly are, or at least I am, my mother came from Missouri's Little Dixie, and we always saw Jesse and the boys as heroes, fighting Yankee banks and railroads, the Pinkertons, and Carpetbag and Scalawag government, and Jennison's Kansas Redlegs. Although Hollywood tends to ruin every story, the beginning of Clint Eastwood's, The outlaw Josey Wales, actually portrays the war in Missouri rather well.

For those of you who wish to avoid the good, the bad, and the ugly approach, see Jan Monaghan, Civil War on the Western Border; Michael Fellman, Inside War: The Guerrilla Conflict in Missouri; any book or article by Albert Castle (especially his special issue on Guerrilla War in Civil War Times Illustrated, 13 (October 1974); or any book or article by Daniel E. Sutherland. Hodding Carter III, The Angry Scar: The Story of Reconstruction, p. 145, has an excellent tale told by his grandmother about how the white South viewed, and many still view, Reconstruction. Most typical of the Southern view is the last half of Margaret Mitchell's, Gone With the Wind, which shops what a difficult time Reconstruction really was through the machinations of her heroins, Scarlett O'Hara. But that brings us back to Eastwood, again.
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12-15-2014, 12:26 PM (This post was last modified: 12-15-2014 01:14 PM by Gene C.)
Post: #55
RE: VP Beast Butler?
Interesting, Wild Bill. If I remember, even President Harry Truman's mother (from Missouri) has strong southern feelings and refused to stay in the Lincoln Bedroom when a guest at the White House (although the accuracy of that is in question)

That is an ugly part of our history that should not be swept under the rug and ignored.
for good or bad, my source regarding Martha Ellen Young Truman is wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_Ellen_Young_Truman

So when is this "Old Enough To Know Better" supposed to kick in?
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12-15-2014, 12:41 PM
Post: #56
RE: VP Beast Butler?
Please Remember-$$$-Talks!
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12-15-2014, 01:09 PM
Post: #57
RE: VP Beast Butler?
Jesse James, no one would deny, was a violent man, a robber, murderer, and a pro-slavery white supremacist. If he is your hero, once again I rest my case. Smile

Don H. Doyle, author of The Cause of All Nations: An International History of America's Civil War, Basic Books. https://www.facebook.com/causeofallnations
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12-15-2014, 02:31 PM
Post: #58
RE: VP Beast Butler?
I am glad that life is so simple for you
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12-15-2014, 02:50 PM
Post: #59
RE: VP Beast Butler?
Did he hop out of the cradle that way, or did life experiences turn him violent? Betty O and I had a wonderful friend, a Catholic priest (actually a monsignor) who read everything he could get his hands on about the James Gang and saw them somewhat like Robin Hoods in person. Fr. K. was a very learned man and a proud member of the SCV.
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12-15-2014, 03:02 PM (This post was last modified: 12-15-2014 03:08 PM by Gene C.)
Post: #60
RE: VP Beast Butler?
I've only read two books about Jesse (never payed attention at the time if they were written by northerners), but Frank James seemed to be the more violent (and more inteligent, better educated) of the two. If I recall, their father, had been a minister?, but died when the boys were young and she remarried?

Frank was around 18 and Jesse 14 when the Civil War broke out.

So when is this "Old Enough To Know Better" supposed to kick in?
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