(07-08-2014 12:46 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Angela, if you manage to purchase any Randall book, please let me know where/how you got it!

Eva, the links that Gene provided let you buy used copies from amazon.com; you can also get them at amazon.de (http://www.amazon.de/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?__...+marriage)

But even with the shipping I think it is still cheaper to order them from abroad.

Have you tried to order them from Amazon? I've tried that several times, and they were either "not shipped to this address" or the dealers charged an additional "handling fee" of ~$30 to the shipping fee. This does by far not happen with all Lincoln books, not even with way older ones, but has always been my experience with the Randall books. I admit, I'm not an ardent shopper and tend to lose patience after some tries.

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Hey, Angela, thanks, this is the first time I saw the book on the German Amazon site. Well, $37 for a paperback edition...

(07-08-2014 02:52 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Have you tried to order them from Amazon? I've tried that several times, and they were either "not shipped to this address" or the dealers charged an additional "handling fee" of ~$30 to the shipping fee. This does by far not happen with all Lincoln books, not even with way older ones, but has always been my experience with the Randall books. I admit, I'm not an ardent shopper and tend to lose patience after some tries.

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Hey, Angela, thanks, this is the first time I saw the book on the German Amazon site. Well, $37 for a paperback edition...

Eva - try the seller "international books", price for a used copy is 0.01$, shipping is 24.99. No trouble with the german address! Still cheaper than the 37 on the german site.

...for a used copy IMO still too much, regarding the last "used" copy I ordered consisted of single pages in an awful condition...But nevertheless thanks, I decided to give the "used" status another try, and it was indeed possible to order this one (for 20€ ~ 26$ altogether compared to a 1cent book...CRAZY! Not any bit reasonable!!! I find it somewhat unfair that for some books we are charged that much more for nothing - the shipping simply doesn't cost that much, roughly a third.) However, I'm just too anxious for this book now...

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(07-08-2014 12:51 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Has anyone ever delved into Mary's disposition before she married Mr. Lincoln? From what I have read, she seems to have been popular and even the belle of the ball. Has anyone ever considered that the sharp turn her life took once she married the wandering prairie lawyer (loneliness, raising children alone, economic problems that she had not had before, maybe being around a different class of people) caused her to change emotionally?

I think Evans (a physician) is one who did this pretty well, his "Mrs. A. Lincoln" is online and to download for free here:
https://archive.org/details/mrsabrahamlincol006929mbp

Here are some key passages:
"Mrs. Edwards wrote of him [A. Lincoln] at that period: 'Lincoln could not hold a lengthy conversation with a lady; was not sufficiently educated and intelligent in the female line to do so.'
...She [Mary] attracted men and had ample opportunities for gauging them. Before long, she decided that of the many young men in Springfield she preferred Lincoln, a decision that did not meet with the unanimous approval of her family and friends. In fact, on more than one occasion she was called on to defend her choice, and her customary way of doing so was to say that he was to be president of the United States.
...It was not easy for one reared as she had been, in a roomy house with a large family and servants. Edgar Lee Masters, describing one of her Springfield homes as shabby, added : 'And here the daughter of the Kentucky banker abode for some time to come, with Lincoln.' To add to all this was that atmosphere of hostility or 'back-fence gossip' about intimate household conditions which enters so largely into the 'Springfield tradition.'
...It is not in accord with social practice for people to maintain a society status when, for financial and other reasons, they cannot keep up their end...When the Lincolns moved from the large Edwards house to live at the Globe Hotel; next, to a modest, rented house on Monroe Street; and, later, to the twelve-hundred-dollar home of their own it was too much to expect the small city aristocrats to continue to have an acute interest in them. Her sisters did, and by this time Ann had married C. M. Smith and joined Elizabeth, Frances, and Mary in Springfield. So did the Edwardses, the Todds, and the Stuarts; but not the general run of the society element. Charles Arnold is quoted by B. F. Stoneberger as saying: 'Mrs. Edwards was the social leader of Springfield and she gave fine parties. Mrs. Lincoln was poor and she resented the way people passed her by. She was hurt and envious.' If Mrs. Lincoln went to any parties or participated in any social affair or public function in Springfield in this period, there is no record of the fact."

Evans' analysis of the first decade after marriage reads:
"It almost summarizes her social activities during this period to say that Mrs. Lincoln lived quietly in her home economizing, doing without luxuries, bearing and rearing children, attending to domestic duties, paying some attention to politics, but otherwise letting the world go by.

A casting-up of the record of this decade shows that Mrs. Lincoln came through it reasonably well. Her training had been for a position in a fairly idle, rather glamorous, social world. She had had no training for motherhood except what little she had absorbed in her father's home. She had had no training in the conduct of a home where there were no slaves, rarely more than one servant, and often none a home run on very thrifty lines and supported by a slender income. Her training for society had not equipped her for the kind of social intercourse to which she was then limited. There was a social isolation which she did not understand and which her type of mind resented. She had been compelled to live simply and to do without things, but that had not hurt her character."

(07-08-2014 06:14 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  ...for a used copy IMO still too much, regarding the last "used" copy I ordered consisted of single pages in an awful condition...But nevertheless thanks, I decided to give the "used" status another try, and it was indeed possible to order this one (for 20€ ~ 26$ altogether compared to a 1cent book...). But I'm just too anxious for this book now...

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(07-08-2014 12:51 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Has anyone ever delved into Mary's disposition before she married Mr. Lincoln? From what I have read, she seems to have been popular and even the belle of the ball. Has anyone ever considered that the sharp turn her life took once she married the wandering prairie lawyer (loneliness, raising children alone, economic problems that she had not had before, maybe being around a different class of people) caused her to change emotionally?

I think Evans (a physician) is one who did this pretty well, his "Mrs. A. Lincoln" is online here (though I'd recommend the printed edition):
http://archive.org/stream/mrsabrahamlinc...p_djvu.txt

Here are some key passages:
"Mrs. Edwards wrote of him [A. Lincoln] at that period: 'Lincoln could not hold a lengthy conversation with a lady; was not sufficiently educated and intelligent in the female line to do so.'
...She [Mary] attracted men and had ample opportunities for gauging them. Before long, she decided that of the many young men in Springfield she preferred Lincoln, a decision that did not meet with the unanimous approval of her family and friends. In fact, on more than one occasion she was called on to defend her choice, and her customary way of doing so was to say that he was to be president of the United States.
...It was not easy for one reared as she had been, in a roomy house with a large family and servants. Edgar Lee Masters, describing one of her Springfield homes as shabby, added : 'And here the daughter of the Kentucky banker abode for some time to come, with Lincoln.' To add to all this was that atmosphere of hostility or 'back-fence gossip' about intimate household conditions which enters so largely into the 'Springfield tradition.'
...It is not in accord with social practice for people to maintain a society status when, for financial and other reasons, they cannot keep up their end...When the Lincolns moved from the large Edwards house to live at the Globe Hotel; next, to a modest, rented house on Monroe Street; and, later, to the twelve-hundred-dollar home of their own it was too much to expect the small city aristocrats to continue to have an acute interest in them. Her sisters did, and by this time Ann had married C. M. Smith and joined Elizabeth, Frances, and Mary in Springfield. So did the Edwardses, the Todds, and the Stuarts; but not the general run of the society element. Charles Arnold is quoted by B. F. Stoneberger as saying: 'Mrs. Edwards was the social leader of Springfield and she gave fine parties. Mrs. Lincoln was poor and she resented the way people passed her by. She was hurt and envious.' If Mrs. Lincoln went to any parties or participated in any social affair or public function in Springfield in this period, there is no record of the fact."

Evans' analysis of the first decade after marriage reads:
"It almost summarizes her social activities during this period to say that Mrs. Lincoln lived quietly in her home economizing, doing without luxuries, bearing and rearing children, attending to domestic duties, paying some attention to politics, but otherwise letting the world go by.

A casting-up of the record of this decade shows that Mrs. Lincoln came through it reasonably well. Her training had been for a position in a fairly idle, rather glamorous, social world. She had had no training for motherhood except what little she had absorbed in her father's home. She had had no training in the conduct of a home where there were no slaves, rarely more than one servant, and often none a home run on very thrifty lines and supported by a slender income. Her training for society had not equipped her for the kind of social intercourse to which she was then limited. There was a social isolation which she did not understand and which her type of mind resented. She had been compelled to live simply and to do without things, but that had not hurt her character."

Thanks, Eva. I think Dr. Evans and I see eye-to-eye.

(07-08-2014 12:43 PM)Angela Wrote:  

(07-08-2014 10:42 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  If she was so awful as so many people seemed to believe, what does it say about AL that he was attracted to her and decided to marry her?

That I have wondered about as well!

I came to the conclusion that he was, at the time, under some pressure to end his bachelor life and wanted to marry "up" (after all, he certainly was no demi god but an aspiring politician and lawyer).
And I'm also pretty sure that Mary did not show all her negative sides until some time into the marriage.

Hi Angela,

Mary no doubt wanted to marry well, but AL was not her only option. There was a well-to-do bachelor lawyer named Edwin Webb, and of course there was future Senator and presidential candidate Stephen Douglas. She chose Lincoln because not only did she see his potential, she fell in love with him and said many times that she would only marry for love. "My heart can never be his"(referring to Edwin Webb in a letter to her best friend Mercy Levering, June 1841..MTL Life and Letters pgs#25-26)..."My hand will never be given where my heart is not" (letter from MTL to a Springfield friend July 23, 1840...pg#6 The Lincolns: Portrait of a Marriage by Daniel Mark Epstein)

As for only showing AL her most positive side during their courtship, Mary was doing what all men and women have always done and continue to do. Lincoln did it too. I am willing to bet he did not show up to court Mary at the Edwards home telling smutty jokes and acting distant, moody and distracted, which was a side of him that she would learn about only after she had married him. Instead, he presented himself to her as the most attentive of suitors:

"Mary led the conversation-Lincoln would listen and gaze on her as if drawn by some Superior power". (Elizabeth Todd Edwards, quoted in Herndon's Informants, auth. Douglas Wilson pg#443)

Abraham Lincoln rose to power and prominence in no small part thanks to his gifts of insight and emotional intelligence. He successfully navigated a difficult, emotionally fraught relationship with his father.

As president he managed a scheming backstabbing Cabinet full of clashing egos with the skill of master violin impresario, playing them all like chess pieces.

Once in office, he walked a tightrope between abolitionists on one side, secessionists on the other, and borderline traitorous Copperheads in the middle, all hating him and braying for his head at once.

He outwitted and out-maneuvered the best brains the Confederacy had to offer...brilliant and talented men like Jefferson Davis and Judah Benjamin.

He triumphed over all of the above, yet we are to believe that he was successfully duped, manipulated and then destroyed by a psychologically fragile Southern belle a decade younger than himself??

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(07-08-2014 12:51 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Has anyone ever delved into Mary's disposition before she married Mr. Lincoln? From what I have read, she seems to have been popular and even the belle of the ball. Has anyone ever considered that the sharp turn her life took once she married the wandering prairie lawyer (loneliness, raising children alone, economic problems that she had not had before, maybe being around a different class of people) caused her to change emotionally?

I still recommend Crowns of Thorns and Glory - comparing Mrs. Lincoln with Varina Davis - as a good book.

Laurie,

You raise excellent points. Daniel Mark Epstein, in his wonderful book The Lincolns: Portrait of a Marriage, posits that Mary was always a volatile personality. Part of it was the painful childhood of emotional abandonment that she endured by losing her mother as a very little girl, then acquiring a stepmother almost immediately afterward who did not want her around and made no secret of it. Mary was sent away to boarding school and later said she considered Madame Mentelle's school in Lexington her only real home as a girl. In fact, bonding over desolate childhoods might have been something that attracted her to AL initially.

After she married AL there is reason to believe(confirmed by her letters) that she looked upon him partly as a replacement for the father who had emotionally abandoned her. Her seamstress confidante Keckly wrote in her memoirs that nothing delighted MTL more than when AL called her his "child wife", something that might have annoyed most other women. And I have already quoted the letters she wrote after his death, describing him as her lover, husband AND father.

His frequent absences, his emotional withdrawal from her when he was home, all could have contributed to triggering the rages and meltdowns she became notorious for in their Springfield years. She probably saw it as one more parent figure rejecting her.

In fact any time someone she loved died she would interpret it as a personal abandonment, and would emotionally go to pieces. This first happened when toddler Eddie Lincoln died in 1850. She had only just begun to recover from the death of Willie in 1862 when the husband she called "Father" was shot in the head while holding her hand.

According to Epstein, biographer Jean Baker, and Ruth Painter Randall, it was the experience of the Civil War White House that was the straw that broke the camel's back and unleashed her latent mental illness full force.

She was probably not an easy person to love or even like, but I have great sympathy and compassion for Mary Lincoln.

Thanks SO much for mentioning "Crowns". I was absolutely impressed by that book. It was a very sympathetic dual biography that did justice to both Varina Davis and Mary Todd Lincoln. I knew absolutely nothing about Varina D. before I read that book. What a woman. Jeff Davis was very lucky to have her. In fact, I am not sure he deserved her!

Evans, too, thinks Mary didn't act abnormally till short before "entering" the White House (precisely before the NY shopping sprees).
Would you recommend Epstein's book? Someone said it has some inaccuracies, so I haven't "dared" it yet to read...

(07-08-2014 10:42 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  He triumphed over all of the above, yet we are to believe that he was successfully duped, manipulated and then destroyed by a psychologically fragile Southern belle a decade younger than himself??

I am not sure what I wrote that gave you the impression that we are to believe that.
But what I meant is that she wanted to marry a future president, he needed a wife - done. I don't think Mary ever managed to manipulate or destroy Lincoln. Sorry if this came somehow across wrong!

(07-08-2014 12:46 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Jesse W. Weik in "The Real Lincoln: A Portrait" wrote: "Mr. Herndon’s habits prior to 1860 were none of the best and not long after Mr. Lincoln went to Washington. Mr. Herndon went there for the purpose of seeking some high diplomatic position...While there he went on a drunken spree. Through the 60′s and in the 70′s he was addicted to the excessive use of liquor.’”

Herndon did not keep a commitment he seemingly made to Lincoln. In 1865 Herndon wrote a letter to Lincoln in which he said, "Above all I am a sober man, and will keep so the balance of my days."

(07-09-2014 03:55 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Evans, too, thinks Mary didn't act abnormally till short before "entering" the White House (precisely before the NY shopping sprees).
Would you recommend Epstein's book? Someone said it has some inaccuracies, so I haven't "dared" it yet to read...

There are some comments abut the book here. Posts 6-13
http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...ht=Epstein

(Michael B is - Michael Burkhimer, who wrote "100 Essential Lincoln Books, so I trust his comments)

(07-09-2014 04:14 AM)Angela Wrote:  

(07-08-2014 10:42 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  He triumphed over all of the above, yet we are to believe that he was successfully duped, manipulated and then destroyed by a psychologically fragile Southern belle a decade younger than himself??

I am not sure what I wrote that gave you the impression that we are to believe that.
But what I meant is that she wanted to marry a future president, he needed a wife - done. I don't think Mary ever managed to manipulate or destroy Lincoln. Sorry if this came somehow across wrong!

Hi Angela,

You didn't write anything at all that gave me that impression. I made the remark because that's the implication I get after 30+ years of reading MTL detractors. Sorry that I got so worked up!

She wanted to be married to a future president, but I am not sure that I agree that AL necessarily needed a wife. There was and is precedent for a successful man remaining a bachelor. But AL's closest friend Joshua Speed had gotten married, and I think Lincoln wanted the same thing because he was essentially lonely. He took a wife because he wanted his own home and family at that point.

I have never bought into the idea that his choice of Mary was purely strategic. It would go against everything we know about his character, which was that he was an honest and honorable man. To marry a woman simply because you see her as a stepping stone implies a cold, calculating, dishonest nature. It also means he perjured himself at the altar.

And then, there is the inscription he had engraved on her wedding band. For me at least, it ultimately always goes back to that.

I highly, highly recommend(as well as Ruth Painter Randall's incomparable book about MTL) the anthology of MTL's letters by Justin Turner and Linda Leavitt-Turner. It's a compilation of the 600 of her personal letters and correspondence that were known to exist until Jason Emerson's recent discovery of later correspondence written around the period of her incarceration in the mental asylum.

No other Lincoln book you will ever read will give you a more complete window into who this woman really was-the good, the bad, the ugly.

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(07-09-2014 03:55 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Evans, too, thinks Mary didn't act abnormally till short before "entering" the White House (precisely before the NY shopping sprees).
Would you recommend Epstein's book? Someone said it has some inaccuracies, so I haven't "dared" it yet to read...

Epstein's book is generally excellent but keep in mind that he is a poet, not an historian. He writes like a poet. He has the habit of putting himself into the head of his subject and tells his reader what they must have been thinking and feeling at a particular moment, etc. For some people it might be a turnoff.

I have been reading about the Lincolns for over 30 years. I found not one real inaccuracy in Epstein's book, even though he does make speculations(i.e. venereal disease) that an informed reader is free to accept or reject.His basic premise is that it was a profoundly complex relationship that was based on a foundation of love and mutual understanding, but that the bond between them slowly unraveled by the experience of the Civil War WH. He does not paper over AL's strange, often exasperating, eccentric nature. Mary comes off even worse, with her rages and insecurities. Epstein clearly believes she was mentally ill. Her abnormal behavior began long before the WH years, but didn't become full blown pathology until then.

It was never an easy "hearts and flowers" relationship between soul mates. They learned over the years to accommodate one another, and their "understanding" was eroded both by Mary's progressive illness which became out of control by the end of the marriage, and by the stress of the WH. What's heartbreaking about it is that AL apparently knew what has happening to her. There is a documented conversation where he expresses concern that she is going mad, and asks if there is any way to stop it, or even cure it. It's so very poignant and sad.

But, these two people did indeed love one another right up to the end according to Epstein, and based on everything else I have learned about them over the years I agree with him.

(07-09-2014 09:06 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  

(07-09-2014 04:14 AM)Angela Wrote:  [quote='LincolnToddFan' pid='35509' dateline='1404834128']

He triumphed over all of the above, yet we are to believe that he was successfully duped, manipulated and then destroyed by a psychologically fragile Southern belle a decade younger than himself??

Hi Angela,

You didn't write anything at all that gave me that impression. I made the remark because that's the implication I get after 30+ years of reading MTL detractors. Sorry that I got so worked up!

She wanted to be married to a future president, but I am not sure that I agree that AL necessarily needed a wife. There was and is precedent for a successful man remaining a bachelor. But AL's closest friend Joshua Speed had gotten married, and I think Lincoln wanted the same thing because he was essentially lonely. He took a wife because he wanted his own home and family at that point.

I have never bought into the idea that his choice of Mary was purely strategic. It would go against everything we know about his character, which was that he was an honest and honorable man. To marry a woman simply because you see her as a stepping stone implies a cold, calculating, dishonest nature. It also means he perjured himself at the altar.

And then, there is the inscription he had engraved on her wedding band. For me at least, it ultimately always goes back to that.

I highly, highly recommend(as well as Ruth Painter Randall's incomparable book about MTL) the anthology of MTL's letters by Justin Turner and Linda Leavitt-Turner. It's a compilation of the 600 of her personal letters and correspondence that were known to exist until Jason Emerson's recent discovery of later correspondence written around the period of her incarceration in the mental asylum.

No other Lincoln book you will ever read will give you a more complete window into who this woman really was-the good, the bad, the ugly.

Hello Toia,
no hard feelings – quite in the contrary! I admire your devotion to Mary Lincoln and find it fascinating how much you have read about her.

I’m always a little nervous posting here and worry about making a mistake since a) English is not my first language and b) I’m quite a newbie AND from the „old world“.

To my shame, I have to admit that I find Mary Lincoln, in my studies about Abraham Lincoln, rather uninteresting. Yet, at the same time, I know very little about her and what I know is from letters that either she wrote after his death or letters he wrote to her. But, hopefully I’ll get to learn more about her in the future. Btw, thank you for the rec on the book with the letters - I was looking for a compilation like that. They are all over the place and to have it in one would be great!

I don’t really have any chips in the game, so to speak, when it comes to defending anything or anybody - but I have noted that what you have pointed out to be very true. There are so many people trying to turn Lincoln into some demi god or tyrant born in hell (depending on who you ask) – it makes studying about Abraham Lincoln rather difficult for a foreigner.

I try to rely on original sources as best as I can because, boy, there are some books that cleverly disguise as history books but are purely politics. Which, in itself is amazing to me that a person dead almost 150 years can still have so much influence on today’s public opinion.

But back to the topic of the thread – I got interested because of the Herndon mention.
I still am trying to figure out his credibility and to me, he is quite a fascinating persona to discover and learn about because he was so angry about the deification of Lincoln after his death and originally set out to „put the record straight“.
As I have understood, that backfired badly, yet I see his intention and find it irresistible to not study upon because he claimed that he wanted to do what many people try today – paint a picture of the real person.
Only...he knew that person.
So, that is why I’m curious to make up my mind on him.

I once again agree with you, Abraham Lincoln was not some angel sent from heaven, but a clever and VERY good politician who worked hard on getting to become President.
Therefore, I agree, partly with William C. Harris who said “The marriage improved his social contacts and standing in Springfield, though this benefit probably was not a prime consideration for him in the relationship.”

I’m sure, Lincoln found Mary agreeable – after all, she presented herself as kind (as you pointed out – as we all do) before marriage but I think he knew exactly that marrying into the Todd family would help secure his place.

As for my idea that he was under pressure, I read a long article about this once but – HUGE mistake, I’m still learning – have not secured it.
All I have on file is that it mentioned how he was constantly teased to have fathered one of Hanna Armstrong’s children because he was a bachelor and that it mortified him (http://lincoln.lib.niu.edu/cgi-bin/philo....lincoln).

As for your mention of the wedding ring – I thought that a very nice touch until the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library and Museum had an article up doubting it’s inscription as well (http://alplm.tumblr.com/post/42027293464/eternal).
Sorry, the link is only their tumblr – but I did not receive their newsletter before last year.

Sigh – as I said, for a foreigner without a clear political agenda, it is VERY difficult to study this man.
But that makes it kind of fun, IMO, because here we have all these thousand letters and notes and whatnot…and it is still difficult to figure him out.

Angela,

I am stunned that English is not your first language. I would never have guessed!

I read the article you refer to about the Library first questioning the "Love Is Eternal" inscription but it did not persuade me that the inscription is a legend. It first surfaced in the newspaper in the days after MTL's death. Her sister Elizabeth found the ring(MTL took it off a couple of days before she died because it kept sliding from her finger.) The newspapers had to have gotten the information about the ring inscription from Elizabeth or someone else who had personally seen it. Why would they make up something so specific? We know for a fact that AL gave other love trinkets to her during the course of the marriage, like the heart shaped diamond locket he purchased at Tiffany in April 1862. So an engraved ring would not have been out of character.

Beside being famously ambitious, Mary Todd was deeply proud. Anyone who believes she would have spent 23 years sleeping with and bearing children for a man who did not reassure her in some way that he loved her does not understand women, human nature, or either.

I am almost embarrassed about how much I have read about this couple and their marriage. It's the same when I debate on message boards about Henry VIII of England and his six wives...for example I am VERY partial to Henry's first queen Katherine of Aragon. I became obsessed with her about the same time I "discovered" the Lincolns when I was a child of about 12 years old. So.. when I encounter fans of her love rival Anne Boleyn, the fur tends to fly!

Good luck with your reading, and please let me know what conclusions you draw!

Angela,

You do not have to be a "foreigner" in order to have plenty of questions and doubts about Abraham Lincoln. He is one of the most complex historical figures that anyone could conjure up. Like most American schoolchildren of yore (before revisionists got into our college classrooms), I was raised to think that the man was near god-like. The more I have read, however, I have become intrigued with his political savvy -- not necessarily impressed with it, but intrigued by it. I will get drawn and quartered for this, but I consider him a Master Manipulator (which means the same as master politician to me). You can draw your own conclusions on that. I have a lot more reading to do on his politics, however, so I guess I'm just on my first impression of him in that field.

He is my favorite president by far. He fascinates me, the same as outer space or ocean exploration. Sometimes I think it seems almost supernatural how he came to be in office at the time he was..literally the man for the moment. I wish I had known him.

But he was far from perfect as a man or as a politician. And I tend to become extremely irritated with certain Lincoln scholars and fans who are willing to overlook or downplay his warts, while excoriating his wife as some sort of anti-Christ.