Great read, Eva - thanks!

I am curious about the dislikes/splits you mentioned. I have never had the impression from anything that I read that there was an actual falling out between Herndon and Mary before he started his lectures. Am I wrong in that?
As for the serpent-insult - as far as I understood, she chided him in her usual manner and he recognized the incident as his own fault. Nothing ever came of it, or did it?
To me it sounds as if they simply did not have much, or even anything, in common and weren't all that interested in each other.
On the other hand, Mary Lincoln gave Herndon a long and personal interview later. I don't see and ground for dislike until that lecture.

(07-08-2014 06:13 AM)Angela Wrote:  I have never had the impression from anything that I read that there was an actual falling out between Herndon and Mary before he started his lectures. Am I wrong in that?

Hi Angela. What you say relates and agrees with what Mike cited in a previous post. As Mike mentioned this is what Douglas Wilson argues in his "William H. Herndon and Mary Todd Lincoln" chapter in the The Mary Lincoln Enigma (pp. 112-139). Other historians see it differently and think the dislike/hatred began much earlier. I very much recommend The Mary Lincoln Enigma for all its fascinating chapters.

Herndon's lecture in which he said, "Lincoln loved Ann Rutledge better than his own life" was on November 16, 1866. Jason Emerson writes that apparently Mary did not find out about it until 4 months later.

What I meant was in the end the same - there was not one big split before the lectures, but Herndon and Mary just basically didn't like each other. He was never invited to the Lincoln's home, and Mary e.g. disliked his alcohol abuse. Just two examples. And Herndon's general opinion of Mary has been pointed out here quite often.

Personally I agree with Eva. I just think the two didn't like each other from the beginning, and it had little/nothing to do with the "serpent" episode. I think Mary wondered what Abraham saw in Herndon from the start. On p. 133 of her Mary Lincoln biography Jean Baker writes, "Envious of the legal matters that kept him (Abraham) away from home, Mary Lincoln thoroughly detested the roughneck Herndon, whom he had taken on as a partner in 1844."

Here's the 1839 waltz episode:
" A few moments later, as we were promenading through the hall, I thought to compliment her graceful dancing by telling her that while I was conscious of my own awkward movements, she seemed to glide through the waltz with the ease of a serpent. Her eyes flashed as she replied : "Mr. Herndon, comparison to a serpent is rather severe irony, especially to a newcomer.' "

I think this is neither the origin nor the reason, but one very representative example of their relationship.

Thank you Eva and Roger - then I'm on the same page. I know I should reading up on Mrs. Lincoln in order to get a better picture - I just can't get myself to be interested in her enough to pick up a book. But I will keep that recommendation in my amazon wishlist!

I don't know why - I find her somehow a fascinating "figure" (in combination with A.L.). She always believed in her husband's political success (and that he would be president one day), even when his career seemed to stagnate. She married him rather than an illustrious candidate like Douglas, although it meant she had to give up her previous comfortable lifestyle and was sort of "dissed" by her family. I think she had her share in A. L.'s political career, even if only due to her encouragement. She travelled Europe and lived there as a single woman (Tad was not adult then), not many women were brave to do such. She was not a smooth character, one of those people either liked or hated, but in any case had a strong opinion of. In many ways I think she was just ahead of her times. Who would nowadays fuss about her clothes sales or mania for shopping - as many female VIP's do this?

Angela, you just need the right book. I would suggest "Mary Lincoln, Biography of a Marriage" by Ruth Painter Randall.

http://www.amazon.com/mary-lincoln-ruth-...135&sr=1-6

There are other editions of the book avialable. While this may not be the most accurate, and up to date or recent study of her life, it is very well written and enjoyable to read. Mrs Randall's husband was a well known Lincoln scholar, and she's pretty sharp too. I like it because while reading it you would think Mrs Randall was writing about a persoanl friend. Mrs Randall does not seem to be a big fan of Herndon. Here are a few other suggestions
http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...-1214.html

And, I agree Eva, I find her a fascinating person.

How extensive was Herndon's drinking problem? Could that have influenced his writings on Mrs. Lincoln?

(07-08-2014 09:12 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  I don't know why - I find her somehow a fascinating "figure" (in combination with A.L.). She always believed in her husband's political success (and that he would be president one day), even when his career seemed to stagnate. She married him rather than an illustrious candidate like Douglas, although it meant she had to give up her previous comfortable lifestyle and was sort of "dissed" by her family. I think she had her share in A. L.'s political career, even if only due to her encouragement. She travelled Europe and lived there as a single woman (Tad was not adult then), not many women were brave to do such. She was not a smooth character, one of those people either liked or hated, but in any case had a strong opinion of. In many ways I think she was just ahead of her times. Who would nowadays fuss about her clothes sales or mania for shopping - as many female VIP's do this?

It's funny how I read the things that you mention above in a different light. Which in itself is a really interesting obervation to me. We read the same historical facts and yet judge them differently. No wonder, many facts are subject to debate when it comes to history.

But as an example, I had never thought she gave up a more illustrious candidate with Douglas. I thought she simply was a very good judge of character, picking the guy who in her eyes had more chances on the presidency one day, this being her self declared goal.

As a partner to Lincoln I found her never very interesting because she did not reflect his character in any way I can see or seemed inspired by him. This is why I never started any reading on her with 16.000 books on the main character floating around.

But - I'm taking notes. Thank you as well, Gene!

[Herndon IMO contradicted himself ]//quote

Eva, talk about an understatement. Here is what he wrote to Jesse Weik on Jan 9, 1886
".....This woman was to me a terror, haughty poor when she married Lincoln, imperious, proud, aristocratic, witty and bitter; she was a gross material woman as she appeared to me."

Then, this is what he wrote to Weik exactly one week later on Jan 16, 1886.
".....she was a highly cultured woman, witty, dashing, pleasant, and a lady".

(Both of the passages above are quoted from Emmanuel Hertz' The Hidden Lincoln, pgs #131 and 136)

So- was she a "gross material woman", or was she "pleasant...and a lady"?



Laurie-

Your question is an excellent one, even though I haven't thought much about the answer. But according to Linda Leavitt Turner, he showed up for his meeting with MTL at the St. Nicholas Hotel on September 5, 1866 reeking of alcohol which (understandably, imo) Mary found upsetting.
(pg#380..Mary Todd Lincoln: Her Life and Letters)

When I started reading about the life of Abraham Lincoln many years ago at the age of around 12, I was indifferent to his wife. Then the more I read, I became intrigued. If she was so awful as so many people seemed to believe, what does it say about AL that he was attracted to her and decided to marry her? The more I read, the more information I gathered. Now all these years later weighing everything...both good and bad(some of it very bad indeed) I am absolutely convinced that many Lincoln scholars and historians have been grossly unfair to her. Some of it seems inspired by hero worship of AL, the idea that this perfect demigod deserved a goddess for a wife and unfortunately ended up with an uber flawed mortal woman instead.

And some of it(criticism) comes off as nothing less than misogyny.

(07-08-2014 10:42 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Eva, talk about an understatement. Here is what he wrote to Jesse Weik on Jan 9, 1886
".....This woman was to me a terror, haughty poor when she married Lincoln, imperious, proud, aristocratic, witty and bitter; she was a gross material woman as she appeared to me."

Then, this is what he wrote to Weik exactly one week later on Jan 16, 1886.
".....she was a highly cultured woman, witty, dashing, pleasant, and a lady".

(Both of the passages above are quoted from Emmanuel Hertz' The Hidden Lincoln, pgs #131 and 136)

Dr. Mark E. Neely, Jr. writes, "In 1881 Herndon quit drinking and tried to pull himself together."

Perhaps it didn't work?

(07-08-2014 10:42 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  If she was so awful as so many people seemed to believe, what does it say about AL that he was attracted to her and decided to marry her?

That I have wondered about as well!

I came to the conclusion that he was, at the time, under some pressure to end his bachelor life and wanted to marry "up" (after all, he certainly was no demi god but an aspiring politician and lawyer).
And I'm also pretty sure that Mary did not show all her negative sides until some time into the marriage.

(07-08-2014 09:50 AM)L Verge Wrote:  How extensive was Herndon's drinking problem?

Once (according to Donald's "We Are Lincoln Men") when Herndon and some friends drank and celebrated so wildly one night that they broke the tavern windows, Lincoln payed their fines of $100 early in the morning to keep his partner (and the others) from jail. (Don't know if Mary knew of this.)

Within their last Springfield dialogue, A. L. said: "Billy, there's one thing I have, for some time, wanted you to tell me.... I want you to tell me... how many times you have been drunk." Lincoln said nothing more on the subject, and never before did (as for "lecturing" Herndon for drunkenness).

Jesse W. Weik in "The Real Lincoln: A Portrait" wrote: "Mr. Herndon’s habits prior to 1860 were none of the best and not long after Mr. Lincoln went to Washington. Mr. Herndon went there for the purpose of seeking some high diplomatic position...While there he went on a drunken spree. Through the 60′s and in the 70′s he was addicted to the excessive use of liquor.’”

---

All to be found in Donald's "Herndon":
After Lincoln left for Washington, Herndon first managed well, unless under stress. On Feb. 11, 1865, he wrote Lincoln: "I'm a sober man and will keep so the balance of my days". After Lincoln's death and several personal setbacks and misfortunes he again took to drink. John Hill, editor of Petersburg newspaper, told he went "on sprees lasting for weeks, although his friends constantly tried to sober him up", and Herndon's neighbors remembered seeing him "hauled home from town...in the back end of the wagon...they unloaded him with his jug of whiskey - he would lay up stairs drunk for a week".

Donald researched and analyzed what effect alcohol had on Herndon's mind and concluded zero. E.g. a day-by-day examination of newspaper files showed that Herndon was in constant demand for speeches or public affairs and duties, and his language was as coherent and eloquent as ever. Also his handwriting remained steady.
In 1881 Herndon stopped drinking entirely and, according to Donald, remained this till his death.


When one if his many book writing projects failed (because he had sold the "copyright" of his 1865/66 research and interview files to Lamon, who refused to sell back),

"Herndon, his hopes dashed, his projected book buried, his vision of a fortune vanished, hobbled back to his pears and his pigs - and his whiskey".

I simply enjoy reading Donald for illustrative sentences like this one (in an apart from that 100% scholarly work).

Angela, if you manage to purchase any Randall book, please let me know where/how you got it!

Has anyone ever delved into Mary's disposition before she married Mr. Lincoln? From what I have read, she seems to have been popular and even the belle of the ball. Has anyone ever considered that the sharp turn her life took once she married the wandering prairie lawyer (loneliness, raising children alone, economic problems that she had not had before, maybe being around a different class of people) caused her to change emotionally?

I still recommend Crowns of Thorns and Glory - comparing Mrs. Lincoln with Varina Davis - as a good book.