(04-23-2013 02:58 PM)My Name Is Kate Wrote:  I'm well aware that Powell was a real person. But it seems that some people don't realize the Sewards were real people too.

Sorry, didn't mean to infer that you didn't. And I agree with you about Seward
with the lapse of time, it's sometimes hard for me to visualize then as walking talking, feeling, real people

Someone asked if the Boston Bomber would be able to invoke the Fifth Amendment in his civil court. If there is overwhelming evidence showing him as the perpetrator of the crime (i.e. him setting the bomb down in front of the crowd), would he even be called to testify?

Also, if he is able to invoke the Fifth-he could remain silent-and we will lose information that we might have otherwise had.

(04-23-2013 02:58 PM)My Name Is Kate Wrote:  I'm well aware that Powell was a real person. But it seems that some people don't realize the Sewards were real people too.

So were the thousands upon thousands who died upon the orders of Lincoln and his cabinet. We could bandy this around ad nauseum and still not get to the crux of it. Such is the nature of debate.

For every action, there is a reaction.

(04-23-2013 03:06 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Someone asked if the Boston Bomber would be able to invoke the Fifth Amendment in his civil court. If there is overwhelming evidence showing him as the perpetrator of the crime (i.e. him setting the bomb down in front of the crowd), would he even be called to testify?

The 5th Amendment concern is, as Bill suggests, whether he will talk about upcoming plots, who he trained under, etc., not about whether he would testify at his trial. I can assure you that whoever his lawyer ends up being will absolutely counsel him NOT to testify at his trial (because they do not want to subject him to cross examination.)

It's not like Jefferson Davis and the Confederates had nothing to do with all those deaths.

I've noticed that some on this forum are quick to point fingers at Lincoln and his Cabinet for unfairness to certain Americans, while at the same time defending someone who was fighting on the side of proponents of slavery.

This is turning into nothing more than an argument, not a rational and fair-minded debate.

There is plenty of blame to go around on all sides of our Civil War, and the fact that the blame lies on the country itself that could only solve the problems by going to war against itself teaches (or should teach) each and every American from 1861 on to find ways to avoid such terrible carnage.

Whether discussing Booth and his cabal or the Kilpatrick-Dahlgren Raid or all the dirty little sidelights of war on both sides, we have to point fingers at ALL who allowed a civil war to become a reality. How could they have avoided it? I sure don't know. And, as you state, Kate, our punching at each other in the above manner is turning into nothing more than an argument. That's how the war started and no rational or fair-minded debate solved it. Likewise, our preaching from both sides is not going to sway very many people on this forum. From what I can tell, we are all very well-informed and very well-spoken people who have spent years forming our opinions. Finger pointing is probably not going to change those opinions.

I may be fairly well-spoken, but I'm certainly not all that informed, and I do not have set opinions on lots of things for exactly that reason. What irks me is that all I was doing at the beginning of this thread was noting that there may have been some brainwashing going on in both the 1865 carnage and the present one. But I was immediately put down for suggesting that LTP was a terrorist, when I did no such thing. It seems that some people just cannot stand to have ANYTHING derogatory, even if true, said about their favorite historical character. And then the more I thought about it, the more I actually could see some elements of terrorism in both cases. But that was not my intention at the beginning.

(04-23-2013 05:21 PM)My Name Is Kate Wrote:  It's not like Jefferson Davis and the Confederates had nothing to do with all those deaths.

I've noticed that some on this forum are quick to point fingers at Lincoln and his Cabinet for unfairness to certain Americans, while at the same time defending someone who was fighting on the side of proponents of slavery.

This is turning into nothing more than an argument, not a rational and fair-minded debate.

You're absolutely right... both sides were complicit in many deaths. But you get my drift? Or perhaps not. The attack on Seward was appalling, but an act of war as Powell saw it. I think if we are fair and unbiased, we can see both sides of the debate.

None of this looks like an argument to me. People are just putting their point across.

I think that your mention of 'fighting on the side of slavery' is becoming a bit of a cliche in such debates. Surely one has to put one's mind set into that era to appreciate why people did what they did and their motivations. When I first learned that only around 5 percent of the southern population were actually slave owners, I was surprised because I'd always been led to believe that all Southerners owned slaves and plantations. I wondered why they would fight for their country if they did not own slaves... but then if you look at the history of warfare, it's almost tribal in it's psychology. It becomes a 'them and us' scenario, and sides must be taken. I don't think that Powell thought it was all about slavery. For him, he was just doing his duty as a soldier and being patriotic... no matter how misguided.

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(04-23-2013 07:37 PM)My Name Is Kate Wrote:  I may be fairly well-spoken, but I'm certainly not all that informed, and I do not have set opinions on lots of things for exactly that reason. What irks me is that all I was doing at the beginning of this thread was noting that there may have been some brainwashing going on in both the 1865 carnage and the present one. But I was immediately put down for suggesting that LTP was a terrorist, when I did no such thing. It seems that some people just cannot stand to have ANYTHING derogatory, even if true, said about their favorite historical character. And then the more I thought about it, the more I actually could see some elements of terrorism in both cases. But that was not my intention at the beginning.

I see nobody 'putting you down'. You're just being 'disagreed' with.

The Powell family did own slaves at some point, if I'm not mistaken. And no one said that LTP was only fighting for slavery.

I do not like having what I say twisted around and used against me.

(04-23-2013 07:47 PM)My Name Is Kate Wrote:  The Powell family did own slaves at some point, if I'm not mistaken. And no one said that LTP was only fighting for slavery.

I do not like having what I say twisted around and used against me.

I don't see anybody quoting you on that or twisting things.

(04-23-2013 03:05 PM)Gene C Wrote:  

(04-23-2013 02:58 PM)My Name Is Kate Wrote:  I'm well aware that Powell was a real person. But it seems that some people don't realize the Sewards were real people too.

Sorry, didn't mean to infer that you didn't. And I agree with you about Seward
with the lapse of time, it's sometimes hard for me to visualize then as walking talking, feeling, real people

William Seward, who lived in Auburn, NY, spent his life serving his country. He served in the state senate, as governor of NY, as a U. S. senator and finally as the secretary of state under Lincoln and Johnson. His son Frederick served with him as the assistant secretary of state. His two other sons, Augustus and William, Jr., both served in the Union army. William attained the rank of Brigadier General.

Seward's wife, Frances, was an abolitionist. Due to chronic illness she lived in their home in Auburn while Seward lived in Washington. The Auburn home was a stop on the Underground Railroad. Bad things happened to them in Auburn such as their dog being poisoned, their barn being set mysteriously on fire and a rock thrown through Mrs. Seward's study window. Fortunately, she was not at her desk at the time.

Seward's youngest daughter, Fanny, was a writer, and it is due to her diary that we have the harrowing description of the attempt on her Seward's life by Lewis Powell. She kept a diary for many years in which she described the effect of the Civil War on a young, upper class girl. She met many famous people, including the Lincolns, Stanton, Senator Sumner, Lord and Lady Napier, and Generals Scott and Butler. The famous actress Charlotte Cushman was a close friend of the family and Fanny wrote a wonderful description of Edwin Booth coming to dinner in 1864.

Seward survived Powell's assault as did Augustus and Frederick who were also attacked. Mrs. Seward, however, did not. She died just ten weeks later. She had rushed to Washington when Seward was severely injured in a carriage accident on April 5 and it is thought that she may have had a heart attack on assassination night.

Fanny, who was frail and suffered from "weakness of the lungs " for years, died in October 1866 at the age of 21. Her lungs were found to be badly damaged in August 1866. However, in September she rushed to her father's side in Harrisburg, PA when she heard he was gravely ill from cholera. She found him "so emaciated that he looked as on the night of the assassination but much older."

The Seward family believed that both Mrs. Seward and Fanny died as a result of the trauma of Powell's attack.

There are no harrowing pictures of the carnage and hysteria at the Seward home, or the scene at Ford's Theater on April 14, 1865, but nearly everyone has seen the July 7, 1865 gallows photos, so it's hard not to have at least some sympathy for the conspirators, and it's easy to dismiss or forget what all the victims suffered.

That's why a film like Killing Lincoln is so good. Even though I've read about Powell hitting Fred Seward with the gun, for example, I didn't realize until I saw Killing Lincoln how brutal and bloody it really was.

And now I read there a "grave" problem. Cemeteries don't want to accept the body of Suspect # 1. There is talk of burying him in an unmarked unknown grave...sort of like what happened to the body of JWB.