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wcvet6 · 06-23-2017, 08:08 PM

(06-23-2017 06:42 PM)L Verge Wrote:
(06-23-2017 04:43 PM)wcvet6 Wrote:
(06-23-2017 03:04 PM)L Verge Wrote: Trust me, I am watching my tone and would suggest that you might want to temper your own. That said, please cite me the exact source for Dr. Brown's or Cattell's written description of the embalming procedure. What has been posted above describes more the autopsy in general terms, but does not provide an exact source for the embalming procedure performed on Mr. Lincoln.

I also asked if there was a photographer's mark on the reverse of your CDV. Would you be so kind as to inform me if there is such a stamp or not, and if so, what it says? That would be another way of determining who and (more importantly) in what city the photo was taken.

While I do question your method of historical investigation, it is my job as a museum professional to ask for any primary source materials or good documentation to back up anyone's theories. I am not singling you out specifically. If I had been in this profession in 1952 (I was nine at the time), I would have asked Dr. Rietveld for the same information.

the cdv was pasted on an antique photo album page with other cdv 's on said page I dare not remove it.

I know that the Victorians were very fond of pasting everything they could get their hands on into albums and scrapbooks. I inherited quite a few from my ancestors. Are there other photos of famous (or dead) people on the same page that might offer a clue?

Most period photo albums have only one photo to a page, and it is inserted behind a frame of sorts. The pages are generally quite thick. I inherited lots of those also and have also flipped through many such albums at shows, museum archives, etc. Does this album match that description, or is it a scrapbook page with brittle paper and multiple photos on one page (that's what I'm judging from your description)?

If it's a scrapbook page, it's a shame because viewing any marks on the back of that photo is important to determining the date, location, and circumstances of said photo.

In the case of men's clothing being an identifying factor, that can be tricky because gentlemen's fashions did not change significantly for years.

I am assuming, since you have not posted a response to my question about the existence of official records from Dr. Brown's files of April 1865, that you have not been able to locate them either?

As an aside, I have to say that, when you first posted the CDV, my first instinct was to suggest that it might be a "living" photo of Jefferson Davis in his later years. We know that he had white hair and some features similar to his rival.

I enlarged the image until the pixels went crazy and still guessed it might be Davis, not Lincoln. I was basing my guess strictly on facial features; the gawky full figure with a slight paunch didn't seem to match either man to me.

Best wishes for a successful search for provenance to prove your suspicions about this photo.

http://www.phototree.com/id_cdv.htm Forum members: If you have not already visited this site that Steve posted, please do so. It really is a handy guide for beginners to use in learning how to identify 19th-century photographs.

I went back and re-read the description of dating the borders of CDVs after perusing the photo in debate here. According to that website, this particular photo would date to 1861-1862. It is the photo pasted on its matting with no borders. After that, borders were added with specific borders being particular to certain time periods.

Based on that one, professional description, our anonymous subject in this particular photo would have been posing at least three years before Mr. Lincoln was assassinated.

I also remembered after reading that information that the government taxed photos from 1864 on in order to help pay the war debt. A tax stamp should be on the back of said photo (as well as the photographer's mark) if it was taken in 1865. Too bad that the photo is glued down and the reverse side hidden.

its the scrapbook black page type unfortunately and I thought it might be Jefferson at first until I compared all the features to me its Lincoln. like I said I just wanted to share it with this forum first I havnt show anyone else because I believe you are all very dedicated to lincolns legacy and very knowledgable that's all . have a wonderful evening thanks for all your time on this matter .

Eva Elisabeth · (This post was last modified: 06-24-2017 05:31 AM by Eva Elisabeth.)

(06-22-2017 09:04 PM)wcvet6 Wrote:
(06-22-2017 06:01 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Re.: "to respect others views even if they differ from your own . I feel nobody gave this photo a chance" - please stick to your own request and accept as for me the photo simply doesn't look like Abraham Lincoln to me. Just my perception - if I had come across it it would never have reminded me of him. I'm afraid I do not see what you do, maybe because the photo is so blurred and you may have a better one. I DO respect your opinion. I just cannot see it myself from the means given. (Much more belly also it sems to me btw.)
(My sincere suggestion is to explicitly ask only those to post who agree with you if you don't want to get/hear different opinion.)

you need glasses and an open mind. politics everywhere!

Thank you for the kind advice - I have glasses, a fairly open mind I would think and feel not much exposed to whatever politics going on on the other side of the pond. I go by common sense.
I wish I had more time to tend to this (some demanding exams next week) - but suggest you measure and compare some biometric features and proportions of the two skulls (bone points, not the hairline). I did and they weren't congruent. I suggest you to try yourself - e.g. take the distance from nose radix to tip of chin as 100% and measure and figure how many % thereof the distance tip of chin - lower lip makes, or the nose length. The more you do the more you will see how different the skulls and bone points are.

As for the post mortem - so you think the gentleman is dangling from the stand, lips sewn together - and the head, hand on the cane and back of chair somehow all invisibly fixed...? Shaved, hair dyed white? What about the round belly that spreads the jacket, a cushion?

A Lincoln-lookalike photo (including stove pipe hat) was quite fashionable in those days, and rather for fun, somewhere I saw an entire compilation. I doubt anyone would seriously have taken a photo of the dead President featuring the hat that way on the chair, seems somewhat disrespectful as ridiculous to me (perception due to different times or culture maybe however).

I am looking forward to what the world will say.

PS: Actually resemblance to Jefferson Davis was my very first thought, too.
http://www.mshistorynow.mdah.ms.gov/images/582.jpg

L Verge · 06-24-2017, 10:42 AM

"its the scrapbook black page type unfortunately and I thought it might be Jefferson at first until I compared all the features to me its Lincoln. like I said I just wanted to share it with this forum first I havnt show anyone else because I believe you are all very dedicated to lincolns legacy and very knowledgable that's all . have a wonderful evening thanks for all your time on this matter ."

Another clue as to when the CDV was pasted into the scrapbook/photo album: I am not sure when black pages for posting photos came in, but I suspect late-1800s or early-1900s. That doesn't help date the photo, however. I just suspect that the CDV was in a family's collection and some member of that family decided to paste them all into one album in later years.

Wild Bill · 06-24-2017, 11:07 AM

It really looks more like Jefferson Davis to me.

L Verge · 06-24-2017, 12:12 PM

(06-24-2017 11:07 AM)Wild Bill Wrote: It really looks more like Jefferson Davis to me.

I agree, Bill, but dating the photo by the borders guideline places it ca. 1861-62. Jeff Davis would have looked younger - gray hair, but not white.

wcvet6 · 06-24-2017, 02:11 PM

(06-24-2017 10:42 AM)L Verge Wrote: "its the scrapbook black page type unfortunately and I thought it might be Jefferson at first until I compared all the features to me its Lincoln. like I said I just wanted to share it with this forum first I havnt show anyone else because I believe you are all very dedicated to lincolns legacy and very knowledgable that's all . have a wonderful evening thanks for all your time on this matter ."

Another clue as to when the CDV was pasted into the scrapbook/photo album: I am not sure when black pages for posting photos came in, but I suspect late-1800s or early-1900s. That doesn't help date the photo, however. I just suspect that the CDV was in a family's collection and some member of that family decided to paste them all into one album in later years.

thank you

wcvet6 · (This post was last modified: 06-26-2017 09:38 PM by wcvet6.)

(06-21-2017 05:37 AM)RJNorton Wrote:
(06-20-2017 04:47 PM)wcvet6 Wrote: that death photo shows a full beard , the embalmer shaved him, no slight smile as per embalmers report , in fact I believe it to be a bust of his 1861 life mask, abe looked much older at death.

Offhand I cannot think of a single historian who has ever questioned the legitimacy of Dr. Ron Rietveld's magnificent find.

JOHN NICOLAY declined to use it in his 10 volume Lincoln a life.hmmm
that statue in the coffin was not shot in the head nor endure an autopsy where hisw skull was sawed off to remove his brain etc etc.

(06-23-2017 08:37 AM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote: Alas, the story that the Victorians routinely posed the dead standing up with the help of stands is well entrenched on the Internet, thanks to various clickbait articles. The story seems to have originated with crooked photo dealers trying to sell otherwise boring or technically flawed family photographs by claiming that someone in the photograph is dead. The story soon found appeal among those who hold the notion that the Victorians were prudish ghouls, and an Internet legend was born.

The majority of genuine Victorian postmortem photos show people in their coffins, although babies and very young children are occasionally shown in their parent's arms or occasionally propped up in a chair.

The posing stands you see in so many Victorian photographs (including some of the Lincoln boys) were used to help people strike a graceful pose and to stay still. People who own antique ones can tell you that they are simply not sturdy enough to support the weight of a dead person.

the ones leaning unnaturally in some direction are most certialy dead the fireman with brady stand . to general of a blanket conclusion

(06-22-2017 06:01 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Re.: "to respect others views even if they differ from your own . I feel nobody gave this photo a chance" - please stick to your own request and accept as for me the photo simply doesn't look like Abraham Lincoln to me. Just my perception - if I had come across it it would never have reminded me of him. I'm afraid I do not see what you do, maybe because the photo is so blurred and you may have a better one. I DO respect your opinion. I just cannot see it myself from the means given. (Much more belly also it sems to me btw.)
(My sincere suggestion is to explicitly ask only those to post who agree with you if you don't want to get/hear different opinion.)

another one oh sure I hAVE HUNDREDS is not blurred are you drunk madam.

(06-20-2017 04:18 AM)RJNorton Wrote: Marsha (wcvet6 on the forum) sent this photo. She would like to know if folks think this is/is not Abraham Lincoln.

just look at rj nrtons avtar / picture above the right side of the face exact match .

(06-20-2017 05:56 AM)Gene C Wrote: I will say no, for starters the hair color is wrong. Lincoln had coarse black hair with just a "touch of gray".
This gentleman's hair appears to almost totally gray or white.

he was a member of the whig party. mabey his head was shaved for brain removal the autopsy report is slientv on that .

(06-23-2017 08:53 AM)Gene C Wrote: Why would any one want to or try to take a picture of a standing post mortem Lincoln?
Surely if this happened or was attempted there would be some record (newspaper, diary, White House leak)

Before Rietveld found the photo of Lincoln in his coffin, was there any record or mention that photo even existed?

mabey mary had it taken.

Susan Higginbotham · 06-26-2017, 09:48 PM

(06-26-2017 09:23 PM)wcvet6 Wrote:
(06-21-2017 05:37 AM)RJNorton Wrote:
(06-20-2017 04:47 PM)wcvet6 Wrote: that death photo shows a full beard , the embalmer shaved him, no slight smile as per embalmers report , in fact I believe it to be a bust of his 1861 life mask, abe looked much older at death.

Offhand I cannot think of a single historian who has ever questioned the legitimacy of Dr. Ron Rietveld's magnificent find.

JOHN NICOLAY declined to use it in his 10 volume Lincoln a life.hmmm
that statue in the coffin was not shot in the head nor endure an autopsy where hisw skull was sawed off to remove his brain etc etc.

(06-23-2017 08:37 AM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote: Alas, the story that the Victorians routinely posed the dead standing up with the help of stands is well entrenched on the Internet, thanks to various clickbait articles. The story seems to have originated with crooked photo dealers trying to sell otherwise boring or technically flawed family photographs by claiming that someone in the photograph is dead. The story soon found appeal among those who hold the notion that the Victorians were prudish ghouls, and an Internet legend was born.

The majority of genuine Victorian postmortem photos show people in their coffins, although babies and very young children are occasionally shown in their parent's arms or occasionally propped up in a chair.

The posing stands you see in so many Victorian photographs (including some of the Lincoln boys) were used to help people strike a graceful pose and to stay still. People who own antique ones can tell you that they are simply not sturdy enough to support the weight of a dead person.
the ones leaning unnaturally in some direction are most certialy dead the fireman with brady stand . to general of a blanket conclusion

(06-22-2017 06:01 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Re.: "to respect others views even if they differ from your own . I feel nobody gave this photo a chance" - please stick to your own request and accept as for me the photo simply doesn't look like Abraham Lincoln to me. Just my perception - if I had come across it it would never have reminded me of him. I'm afraid I do not see what you do, maybe because the photo is so blurred and you may have a better one. I DO respect your opinion. I just cannot see it myself from the means given. (Much more belly also it sems to me btw.)
(My sincere suggestion is to explicitly ask only those to post who agree with you if you don't want to get/hear different opinion.)

another one oh sure I hAVE HUNDREDS is not blurred are you drunk madam.

(06-20-2017 04:18 AM)RJNorton Wrote: Marsha (wcvet6 on the forum) sent this photo. She would like to know if folks think this is/is not Abraham Lincoln.

just look at rj nrtons avtar / picture above the right side of the face exact match .

(06-20-2017 05:56 AM)Gene C Wrote: I will say no, for starters the hair color is wrong. Lincoln had coarse black hair with just a "touch of gray".
This gentleman's hair appears to almost totally gray or white.

he was a member of the whig party. mabey his head was shaved for brain removal the autopsy report is slientv on that .

(06-23-2017 08:53 AM)Gene C Wrote: Why would any one want to or try to take a picture of a standing post mortem Lincoln?
Surely if this happened or was attempted there would be some record (newspaper, diary, White House leak)

Before Rietveld found the photo of Lincoln in his coffin, was there any record or mention that photo even existed?

mabey mary had it taken.

The "fireman" is notorious among Victorian photograph collectors as a bogus postmortem photo, along with the girl in the fairy costume, the girl in her First Communion dress, and (my favorite) the very much alive young Lewis Carroll.

Do you seriously think that Mary Lincoln would have allowed anyone to pose her beloved husband as a standing corpse?

Gene C · 06-26-2017, 10:29 PM

(06-26-2017 09:23 PM)wcvet6 Wrote: another one oh sure I hAVE HUNDREDS is not blurred are you drunk madam.

I doubt Madam was in that condition, but perhaps the photo is slightly blurred because it's hard to be still and stand up straight, when you're dead, which you claim he is....

...Or, Idea

perhaps the picture is blurred because it is the white haired gentleman who is pickled and he can't stand still

Definition of pickled - from Dictionary.com
[pik-uh ld]
1. Slang. drunk; intoxicated
2. preserved or steeped in brine or other liquid.

(could being pickled turn your hair white, or would it cause it to turn green?)
Smile

wcvet6 · 06-26-2017, 11:11 PM

(06-26-2017 10:29 PM)Gene C Wrote:
(06-26-2017 09:23 PM)wcvet6 Wrote: another one oh sure I hAVE HUNDREDS is not blurred are you drunk madam.

I doubt Madam was in that condition, but perhaps the photo is slightly blurred because it's hard to be still and stand up straight, when you're dead, which you claim he is....

...Or, perhaps the picture is blurred because it is the white haired gentleman who is pickled and he can't stand still

Definition of pickled - from Dictionary.com
[pik-uh ld]
1. Slang. drunk; intoxicated
2. preserved or steeped in brine or other liquid.

(could being pickled turn your hair white, or would it cause it to turn green?)

I DONT THINK THEY SEW LIVE PEOPLES LIPS SHUT.LIVE PEOPLE DONT HAVE TO HAVE THEIR FINGER NAILED TO A CHAIRIS THAT TATTERED SKIN BY HIS LEFT EAR, I CAN SEE SPACE UNDER HIS HAIRLINE.MYWHAT LONG ARMS HE HAS LONG FINGERS HUGE HANDS,SCRANEY NECKHUGE RIGHT EARLEFT EYE DROPES EYE BROWS CORRECT LONG LEGS THAT CHIN CROOKED MORE TO THE RIGHT. HIS 1958 SUIT IT S A DEAD ABE LINCOLN ETC ETC ETC

Susan Higginbotham · 06-26-2017, 11:32 PM

BLESS YOUR HEART.

wcvet6 · 06-27-2017, 02:57 AM

(06-26-2017 11:32 PM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote: BLESS YOUR HEART.

pompas bore

Gene C · (This post was last modified: 06-27-2017 06:29 AM by Gene C.)

It appears that our conversations on this photograph has turned in the wrong direction.

Regarding the hat - I don't recall seeing a hat quite like that. Hat brim is narrow, and darker at the top end sitting on the chair.
How does it compare to the other hats we have seen Lincoln with.

And the necktie?

RJNorton · 06-27-2017, 07:17 AM

(06-27-2017 06:23 AM)Gene C Wrote: Regarding the hat - I don't recall seeing a hat quite like that. Hat brim is narrow, and darker at the top end sitting on the chair.
How does it compare to the other hats we have seen Lincoln with.

Gene, the image is a little blurry, but here is the one he wore to Antietam.

Gene C · (This post was last modified: 06-27-2017 11:35 AM by Gene C.)

"Lincoln’s top hats were not always of the same design. At his first inauguration in 1860, he wore the lower silk plush hat that had by that time come into fashion. By the start of his second term in 1864, he was again wearing a stovepipe, following (or perhaps ushering) a style that would continue for a good decade or more after his assassination."
Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ab...CTtqtif.99

So if this photo is circa 1865, would Lincoln have the lower silk plush hat or the stovepipe hat?

A little help ladies. For this special occasion, would you let your husband be caught dead with the wrong hat?

Angel