Confederate Flag

[Christine]

I know this is wading into turbulent waters, but I am sickened at the violence last week in South Carolina, and amazed at how quickly the response has turned to removing confederate symbols. I know many of you are from the south (as is my husband's family) so I wondered what your thoughts are. Do you think the confederate symbols and identity fed into his racism and rampage?

Mississippi's lieutenant governor, Tate Reeves, asserted in a statement that the violence in Charleston should not be linked to a flag. “What happened in Charleston is simply pure irrational evil. There is no other description for this monster’s actions. He is an individual that has allowed his mind and soul to be horribly twisted and disfigured by irrational hate. No symbol or flag or website or book or movie made him evil — he was evil on his own. Flags and emblems are chosen by a group of people as a symbol of all that unites and ties the group together. The good and bad in our shared history, and all that we have learned from it, is something that ties us together.”

I do see his point and agree somewhat, but is there any other nation on earth where a group has risen up against the government, caused a war that led to unfathomable death and destruction, and still been allowed to hold on to the symbols of that rebellion? Not just hold on to them in museums but on clothes, flags, and license plates?

"This is a feeding frenzy of cultural cleansing,” said Ben Jones, the chief of heritage operations for the Sons of Confederate Veterans, a Tennessee-based group. “It’s an hysteria — we just want to fly this flag for family, for Grandpappy. This whole thing is basically insulting and demeaning our respect for our ancestors."

Are there Sons of Confederate Veterans officials who have said that because this symbol has been hijacked by evil people we agree with removing it from public places?

So, is it really to honor 'Grandpappy?' Or is it a way to subtly claim superiority over an entire race? If it is to honor our ancestors, then why aren't the British flags flying in states with huge British ancestry. The German flag in the upper Midwest? The Japanese flag in Hawaii and California?

At what point are you comfortable with this? Removing the battle flag from all state flags and from all capital grounds? Removing the statues from all capital rotundas and public lands? Removing them entirely from everywhere? Where do we draw the line? How do we balance history with reality that evil people will be inspired by these symbols of rebellion?

[Juan Marrero]

Politeness is the art of getting along. A loaded symbol like the Confederate flag should not be flown in an area belonging to the public for the simple reason that it is a highly insensitive thing to do to a significant portion of the population. This country has never lacked creative genius. It's hard to believe that a flag or other symbol could not be agreed upon that shows respect to those who fought for the CSA and those who suffered under slavery--perhaps a flag showing two hands clasping one another, one of a Confederate soldier, the other an African-American wearing the Union blue. But the Confederate flag has joined "wife-beater' t-shirts, baggy-droopy pants and the Kardashians as a symbol of no class.

[Rsmyth]

Pretty funny Juan but I also agree with you. Time for a change.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Christine, you might like to read this discussion:
http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...ht=antique
(...and if I remember correctly, Roger had to close the thread temporarily).

[loetar44]

This is a sensitive topic. From a totally different order, but the Nazi flag is banned here, as in Germany, and that is in my opinion a right step! I know that there are people who believe that to ignore the Nazi flag (and the manifestation of Nazi symbols) is better than suppressing them. But by ignoring you also ignore the evil philosophy. There will always be (a few) people who will use the flag (and symbols) to provoke racial unrest on the streets or to deeply offend people of Jewish extraction and religion. We must not tolerate that. I see a parallel with the Confederate flag and the African American. I agree with Mitt Romney who stated that the Confederate flag was "a symbol of racial hatred". I agree with President Obama who said that the Confederate flag "belongs in a museum." You can’t deny that for the African American the flag is the symbol of centuries of slavery, lynching and racial prejudice.

[Thomas Kearney]

(06-24-2015 02:56 PM)loetar44 Wrote:  I agree with President Obama who said that the Confederate flag "belongs in a museum." You can’t deny that for the African American the flag is the symbol of centuries of slavery, lynching and racial prejudice.

I second! The Confederate Flag is a symbol of racist heritage and should be removed, better yet, burn the thing to ash.

[Christine]

This was the article I read this morning before I posed the question:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/24/us/sou....html?_r=1

I am sincerely interested in others' opinions - not trying to stir up discord. If I ask that question of my family and friends here it would be 100% in favor of removing it.

So I was interested in a full discussion, particularly from people whose ancestors bled and died for the confederacy. My husband, whose mom was born and raised in Georgia with relatives from Alabama (pro confederacy - some partisan rangers) and North Carolina (some anti confederacy who were forced to fight) and some from Mississippi (who were drafted into the confederacy and fought but then went AWOL and joined their friend Newt Knight's band in fighting for the free state of Jones, Mississippi - one who was killed by Confederate soldiers in his front yard. I wish she was still alive so I could ask her opinion.

It appears after 150 years we are still 'fighting' the Civil War in many ways.

[HerbS]

The Confederate Flag has been flown here in New York State by people that are labeled as attention seekers! They are using it in,what I feel is in poor taste.In our society they exercise thier rights,when it is thier favor.I feel that symbol is racist and should not be flown as a Flag!

[LincolnMan]

While the issue of the Confederate flag may or may not be a problem- I think the effort going on at this time is misguided in that it doesn't address the more deeply rooted problem in our nation- the breakdown of the family. Remove the Confederate flag- and even remove all of the statues and memorials of the Confederacy- and you still have the same problem- which is virtually ignored by the media and politicians of the day.

[Wild Bill]

Thank you, Bill. Very well reasoned and said.

[L Verge]

(06-24-2015 07:18 PM)LincolnMan Wrote:  While the issue of the Confederate flag may or may not be a problem- I think the effort going on at this time is misguided in that it doesn't address the more deeply rooted problem in our nation- the breakdown of the family. Remove the Confederate flag- and even remove all of the statues and memorials of the Confederacy- and you still have the same problem- which is virtually ignored by the media and politicians of the day.

Bless you, Bill Nash, for getting at the real heart of what is happening to America. And, the breakdown does not depend on racial lines.

[HerbS]

Bill Nash,you are a "word-smith"!

[BettyO]

God Bless you, Bill for being the "mediator" in this seemingly "ugly" discussion. As one whose g-g grandfathers fought for the Confederacy, I must say that although I disagree with a lot of the direction in which the image of the battle flag has gone over the years, I was finding this discussion distasteful and hurtful (at least to me.) You have hit the proverbial nail on the head, Bill. I think that the lack of family structure, religion and simply just plain common decency is the main problem in this country nowadays.....

[Juan Marrero]

I hope it is not against the rules to link to an article, but this one from Rod Dreher, a writer for the "American Conservative", covers a lot of ground in this debate and reflects many of the thoughts that have been expressed here, including prolonged focusing on the flag while ignoring more immediate sociological concerns. It seems that--North, South, white, black--there is a need for painful self- reflection.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/d...nfederacy/

[Christine]

Betty - I didn't intend for this discussion to be hurtful or offensive to anyone, and I do agree that most of the problems in our nation stem from the disintegration of the family - particularly the lack of real fathers.

As I said, my husband is one half rebel. And we have had great joy and excitement in researching their Confederate experiences. He is proud to be from the South.

While thinking about this the thought struck me yesterday, quite forcefully, that any religious icons (including 10 commandments) are not allowed on state capital grounds. . .

I guess I am wondering why we can't feel a deep connection to our ancestors, some who did wonderfully brave and courageous things, without seeming to endorse some of the things they believed in? I know nobody on this board wants to go back to those days where the tenants of the Confederacy were supported by millions - North and South.

I am asking, without any rancor or animoisity or judgement: for those who want to keep the flags flying on state property - please tell me why. Why, when, where is it okay? Can we have that discussion without it getting into personal attacks? After all, none of us voted to seceed. None of us are responsible for decisions made by our parents, let alone our great great grandparents.

I am not trying to whitewash history. I am not in favor of burning all Confederate related things. I am not in favor of renaming all streets and pulling down all statues. It still bugs me that The Conspirator got so many things so wrong in their zeal to portray their liberal viewpoint by neglecting to look at Frederick Aiken's real history. Today I saw that Ben Afleck pressured "Finding Your Roots" to leave out his slave owning ancestor. That is just plain and simply wrong.

We need to 'own' our history - good, bad, and ugly.

But do we need to fly it from our state capitals? Do we need to hold so tightly to the past that we ignore the present. If the answer is no, where is the line between honoring the past, and embracing the future?