Lincoln and Ann Rutledge

[L Verge]

(06-01-2014 10:50 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  

(05-31-2014 02:31 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  I found it unfair towards Mary that you, without giving any proof, made of a so far unproven "possibly more" "THE relationship of W.S.W. and M. L.":

(05-30-2014 08:48 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  I wanted to know if you are going to provide an analysis of the relationship of William S. Wood and Mary Lincoln, wife of the President of the United States, sometime soon.

IMO such is the way how rumors grow and people start to believe them without scrutinizing what they are believing.

HistorianJoan Chaconas' statement based on her research on W. Wood is for me sufficient to confirm what I personally believe: Mary sure had several "weaknesses", but I believe she had an attitude towards marriage and motherhood that regarding intimacy with other men outlawed anything beyond charming conversations.

In what posting that I made was there a claim made by me that there was an illicit relationship between William S. Wood and Mary Lincoln? Please provide the specific posting reference number.

Does this mean that Laurie Verge and you are not going to do the promised analysis of the POSSIBLE illicit sexual relationship between William S. Wood and Mary Lincoln?

Seriously, are you going to rely solely on the statement of a "Lincoln historian" that I have never heard of as the definitive answer to the question at hand? I believe that "historian Joan Chaconas" works on the staff of Laurie Verge. And, Laurie Verge refers to any criticism of Mary Todd, legitimate or otherwise, as "Mary Todd Lincoln bashing."

This is ridiculous!

Roger Norton has provided to you a reference to the scholarly work of Professor Michael Burlingame on this specific subject matter. The documenation contained therein might lead you to the work on the subject of other recognized Lincoln scholars in whom you might have greater faith and confidence, such as Ida Tarbell.

Remember: "If you don't look under any rocks, nothing is going to crawl out!" You wrote above: "people start to believe [], without scrutinizing what they are believing." I suggest that you start doing your own scrutinizing.

Excuse me, Mr. Lockmiller, but there are many very learned individuals in the Lincoln field who have done magnificent research without a PhD behind their names. I have been fortunate to know many of them - as well as the leading authors from the professional field.

I apologize for not knowing you other than through your one-time postings on the old, now-deceased, but wonderful Friends of Lincoln Mailbag on ALO and now here. However, I feel just as capable as you of having opinions as well as background sufficient to argue those opinions.

My very well-educated and common sense daughter advised me a long time ago, however, to choose my battles. That is what I intend to do right now. I am putting my opinions of Billy Herndon, Michael Burlingame, and you in a box and closing the lid.

[Gene C]

Well, if feelings are so strong about this issue when we are not personally involved and it happened over 150 years ago, imagine how Mary and her children must have felt with these comments about Ann Rutledge and herself, coming from Abraham's former law partner.

Mr. Burlingame is an author and historian whose books I do not own and work I have read very little of. And while I do not share the same opinion as David Lockmiller on this subject, we probably agree on other aspects of Lincoln's life. I do appreciate him informing me of some well regarded writer/historians comments that I might not have learned of otherwise, even if I disagree with them. We at least all share a passion for learning about Abraham Lincoln.

Use what challenges your understanding as an oportunity to re-examine your beliefs, and either reafirm those beliefs, or change your mind due to new and additonal informaiton.

[LincolnToddFan]

(06-01-2014 11:54 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  

(05-30-2014 10:23 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  As grief stricken as AL undoubtedly was by Ann's death, he was back at his duties as postmaster a month later(Sept 22) and within a year he was pursuing another woman with at least the idea of marriage in mind.

Willie Lincoln died on February 20, 1862. "By the end of February, Lincoln had regained enough strength to resume his duties. D. W. Bartlett noted that he 'is frequently called up three and four times in a night to receive important messages from the West. Since his late bereavement he looks sad and care-worn, but he is in very good health again.'" (Professor Burlingame, "Abraham Lincoln: A Life" Vol. Two, page 299.)

As to your second point stating "within a year he was pursuing another woman with at least the idea of marriage in mind":

For the wives of military men (some with children) whose husbands have fallen in Iraq or Afghanistan, what is considered to be the "proper" length of time before a woman should consider romance again and moving on with their lives? Is it one year? two years? three years? Never?

You seem to have made yourself an expert on answering this question.

Mr. Lockmiller,

You are the one who has ventured the opinion that the death of Ann Rutledge affected AL significantly and profoundly for the rest of his life. I pointed out his return to work a short time later and his pursuit of another woman shortly after to support my opposing opinion that this was not necessarily the case.

If memory serves, you have offered no hard corresponding evidence to support your own viewpoint. An anecdote about AL being overcome with grief seven years later at the funeral of a friend from the period of his life where he knew AR might be sufficient proof for you, for most people including myself, it isn't. AL was a sensitive man who felt the loss of people he cared about keenly.

You seem to suggest that if AL was back at work a few days after the death of his beloved son it somehow compares to his being back in the saddle a short time after the death of his "great love" Rutledge. I cannot quite believe that you are serious here, but in the event that you are...let me remind you that in 1862 Abraham Lincoln was President of the US and commander of the armed forces during a bloody civil war, a time of unprecedented danger in the history of the Republic. It's hardly possible that he could have taken to his bed to grieve even if he'd wanted to.

In short, there is no way to compare the idea of a grief stricken father who also happened to be President of the US during wartime returning quickly to his duties, with that of an anonymous young man who loses his girlfriend going back to work at the post office in the middle of some obscure prairie town... not to mention falling for another woman shortly after.

The first incident happened as a matter of STRICT NECESSITY...not because AL had the luxury of taking time from his duties as president to mourn the death of his favorite son. On the other hand, AL pursuing Mary Owens within a year of the death of the young lady you and others claim was his greatest love? Well...we can't really argue that that was by anything except choice can we?

From the death of Willie Lincoln in 1862 until the time of his own murder just over three years later, there are MANY recorded incidences of AL referring to his lost child's memory, weeping over him, showing visitors his scrapbook of him, visiting his tomb to have his coffin opened to gaze at his face, dreaming of him at night, telling people like artist Francis Carpenter and army nurse Rebecca Pomroy that the loss of this child was "THE GREATEST TRIAL OF MY LIFE".(please note: by Lincoln's own words the death that affected him most was not an early romance...it was the death of his and Mary's boy!)

His last known reference to his eternal grief over Willie was on Apr 14 1865, the day of his assassination, when he spoke to his child's mother about how the loss of their son had cast a shadow over them, and how "we must both try to be more cheerful in the future".

If you have information demonstrating how he spent the thirty years that he was alive after the death of his "greatest love" in a comparable state of grief and longing for her-other than his obscure conversation with Isaac Cogdal about "thinking of her often" in 1860 I'd be simply fascinated to hear about it.

I admit that I know little to nothing about the length of the grieving period for Iraqi war widows. However, I do know much about losing loved ones in general.And I don't usually spend my time acting as if they never existed, with no references at all to them, and neither does anyone else I know.

Finally, I appreciate the compliment, but I am not an "expert" on anything except how difficult it is to indulge my candy addiction without it affecting how the bathroom scales look when I step on.

I do know a weak, bogus argument when I hear one. The idea that Ann Rutledge was Lincoln's greatest love and that her death prevented him from moving on and building a new life with another woman he loved is a good example.

[RJNorton]

I have a question for everyone no matter where they might stand on the issues being discussed in this thread. It relates to a question students have written me about for the past 18 years. The students want to know about Abraham Lincoln's 1836 nervous breakdown. Most of the time this question does not arise from their own reading; it comes from what their teacher taught them. The teacher is mentioning this to teach the class that problems can be overcome and success can still come in life. Many times the teacher has taught the class that the 1836 breakdown was the result of Ann Rutledge's death (which happened in 1835, not 1836).

This "fact" is on many web pages, too. Here are just two examples:

Here ("Had a total nervous breakdown and was in bed for six months")
and
Here

I have researched 1836 and simply cannot find that Abraham Lincoln had a nervous breakdown. I write back to these students and tell them I cannot find specific data that supports the statement that Mr. Lincoln had an 1836 nervous breakdown.

Does anyone know what I am missing? Or am I right - Mr. Lincoln did not have a nervous breakdown in 1836? Where does this come from? Anyone know? Many thanks for any possible input on this "mystery."

[LincolnToddFan]

Hi Roger, so good to have the voice of reason weigh in!

I think it depends on how we define the term "nervous breakdown". As a layman I have always understood it to be a period of acute emotional, psychological and physical incapacitation.

I went online and here is the official definition:

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-condi...q-20057830

Many Lincoln scholars have attributed two nervous breakdowns to AL, in 1835 and in 1841. But if we go by the strict medical definition of the term, he suffered only one and that is the 1841 crisis after the breaking of his engagement to Mary Todd.

I concur with your opinion.The "breakdown" of 1835 was in reality a period of deep, intense grief that did not affect his ability to function normally. What happened in 1841 was so severe as to not only interrupt his life significantly, it required medical attention and a period of prolonged recuperation out of state.

ETA: I have never read about a breakdown of any kind happening in 1836. The idea that he ever had a nervous breakdown at all after Ann's death is the result of an oral and written tradition that began with the Herndon lectures of 1866...how Lincoln's mind "wandered from it's throne" for example, and it has been embellished ever since by Lincoln scholars and students who want to believe in the romantic myth that this great, resourceful leader was somehow undone by the tragic loss of his first love.

[Gene C]

(06-01-2014 02:33 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  On the other hand, AL pursuing Mary Owens within a year of the death of the young lady you and others claim was his greatest love? Well...we can't really argue that that was by anything except by choice can we?

Finally, I appreciate the compliment, but I am not an "expert" on anything except how difficult it is to indulge my candy addiction without it affecting how the bathroom scales look when I step on.

Not trying to answer for David, but maybe Mary Owens caught AL on the rebound? Fortunately, he came to his senses.
and I love your sense of humorl

I don't remember anyone mentioning this, but evidently Abraham was not what we would consider an attractive young man. Mary was able to see beyond appearances and financial status, to see his character, and still fell in love enough (and over her family's objections) to want to marry him anyway. I think that speaks volumes.

[LincolnToddFan]

Thanks Gene,

Yes it's more than likely that AL was on the rebound after the death of Ann. But he was open to moving on, despite how lukewarm he was about Owens and in fact probably would have married her if Owens herself had not ended things.

I agree with everything you posted about Mary Todd. In spite of all the turmoil and difficulty, in some ways she was the making of Abraham Lincoln.

Who else would have given him the time of day in Springfield?? Frances Todd, Matilda Edwards, Sarah Rickard?

[Joe Di Cola]

(06-01-2014 02:56 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  I have a question for everyone no matter where they might stand on the issues being discussed in this thread. It relates to a question students have written me about for the past 18 years. The students want to know about Abraham Lincoln's 1836 nervous breakdown. Most of the time this question does not arise from their own reading; it comes from what their teacher taught them. The teacher is mentioning this to teach the class that problems can be overcome and success can still come in life. Many times the teacher has taught the class that the 1836 breakdown was the result of Ann Rutledge's death (which happened in 1835, not 1836).

This "fact" is on many web pages, too. Here are just two examples:

Here ("Had a total nervous breakdown and was in bed for six months")
and
Here

I have researched 1836 and simply cannot find that Abraham Lincoln had a nervous breakdown. I write back to these students and tell them I cannot find specific data that supports the statement that Mr. Lincoln had an 1836 nervous breakdown.

Does anyone know what I am missing? Or am I right - Mr. Lincoln did not have a nervous breakdown in 1836? Where does this come from? Anyone know? Many thanks for any possible input on this "mystery."

Hi, Roger,

I hope you don't mind that I take the opportunity of communicating only to you re Lincoln's "nervous breakdown." Since so many New Salem residents were interviewed many years later, it seems to me that they are the ones responsible for the report that Lincoln had the alleged breakdown. So many commented on his nearly pathological grieving over the death of Ann Rutledge, and I also think that the dates got mixed up along the way. Hannah Armstrong, John and Samuel Hill, Nancy Green and a number of others reported Lincoln's despondency after Ann's death. It does appear that he was distrcted by her death, but by December of 1835 he was back working on legislative concerns.

Lincoln returned to his legislative duties for the 1835-36 session and answered all except 11 of the 130 roll calls. At that time he also reports, supported various issues and, most importantly in 1836 encouraged the building of the Illinois & Michigan canal (begun in 1836). Doesn't sound like any mental health issues were involved in his life in 1836. Also, in June of that year he announced his candidacy for re-election.

Hope you and Vicki are doing well. I am V-E-R-Y busy these days and hope to have some R & R real soon.

All the best,

Joe

[RJNorton]

Thank you, Toia and Joe. In the future I think I will now be able to reply to students in a more meaningful way. It concerns me that so many teachers seem to be using an event that never occurred in their classrooms.

Not being really serious here, but maybe we wouldn't be discussing this if Abraham Lincoln was not so fond of onions. Louis Warren writes, "According to neighbors in Spencer County, she (Hannah Gentry) would have been Mrs. Lincoln, if Abraham had not been 'too fond of onions, as she could not endure them.' Hannah Gentry married John Romine on April 2, 1829."

[LincolnToddFan]

So this Hannah Gentry was an even earlier romantic interest for AL than was Ann Rutledge? I have never heard of Hannah Gentry!

[RJNorton]

Toia, my best guess is that the Indiana neighbors did a lot of embellishing. Warren writes that "the romance was probably confined to the schoolroom." He writes that Hannah was described as "a beauty noted for her amiable disposition, and her father was the richest man in the community."

[L Verge]

You know, despite the drastic spike in my blood pressure this week, I have to say that this thread has been a marvelous learning tool for me. The combined reading backgrounds and intellectual skills of many of the posters here are amazing.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Not being really serious here, too, I wonder if this loss of another great first love and wedding proposal (which the account states clearly if we interpret it as consequently as the "Rutledge legend accounts") due to his onion fondness was another grief that disturbed A. L.'s "Inner World" for the rest of his life...

[David Lockmiller]

(05-31-2014 06:55 PM)L Verge Wrote:  The memoirs of Julia Grant makes one think of "premonition" immediately. I might add that, if Julia was that persuasive to get her husband to turn down a Presidential invitation, then she evidently had a bit of a feminine backbone also! God bless her.

I know very little about Adam Badeau other than his friendship with Edwin Booth and from what I learned in a talk given years ago. All I can say is that he was a rather odd duck also, IMO. I'm not sure that he would show much respect for womankind...

David - Since Eva resides in Germany, it is a little inconvenient for her to conduct research at and discuss things with Joan Chaconas and I at Surratt House. I suspect that you live closer, so I would invite you to visit and utilize the James O. Hall Research Center. You do need to make an appointment in advance, and there is a fee for duplication of materials. We do not do research for you. However, our librarian is quite the Lincoln addict and collector in her own right.

Laurie, you did not raise these as problems in your posting #123. When did you find out that "Eva resides in Germany"?

[Eva Elisabeth]

David, I'm afraid IMO discussing this will add nothing educational to the topic nor lead anywhere.