Thank you, Toia, great reply and argumentation (as always).

(05-31-2014 03:00 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Linda, that is a perfectly chilling account that Mrs. Grant gives about the afternoon of Apr14th 1865. She later identified the pale guy who was glaring at her as John Wilkes Booth.

Incidentally, in her memoirs she wrote that Adam Badeau had exaggerated Mary Lincoln's meltdown at City Point which I found interesting.

Toia, here's the footnote to the City Point incident from Mrs. Grant's memoirs.

"...Lieutenant Colonel Horace Porter, who assisted Badeau in escorting the ladies, provides a discreet portrait of the outing in Campaigning with Grant, pp. 412-14. See also Personal Memoirs of W.T. Sherman (3rd ed., New York, 1890) II 332. Although Julia Grant objected to Badeau's account, her own narrative basically confirms his representation of Mary Lincoln's irrational conduct."'

This is Sherman's account from his Memoirs.

"The cavalcade reached the review-ground some five or six miles out from City Point, found the troops all ready, drawn up in line, and after the usual presentation of arms, the President and party, followed by Mrs. Ord and Captain Barnes on horseback, rode the lines, and returned to the reviewing stand which meantime had been reached by Mrs. Lincoln and Mrs. Grant in their carriage, which had been delayed by their driver taking a wrong road. Mrs. Lincoln, seeing Mrs. Ord and Captain Barnes riding with the retinue, and supposing that Mrs. Ord had personated her, turned on Captain Barnes and gave him a fearful scolding; and even indulged in some pretty sharp upbraidings to Mrs. Ord.

"This made Barne's position very unpleasant, so that he felt much relieved when he was sent with me to North Carolina."

https://archive.org/stream/personalmemoi...rd+lincoln

Roger's train timetables in Post 134 show that the Grants REALLY wanted to get out of town fast no matter how long it took them to arrive at their destination. They never really explain why.

The memoirs of Julia Grant makes one think of "premonition" immediately. I might add that, if Julia was that persuasive to get her husband to turn down a Presidential invitation, then she evidently had a bit of a feminine backbone also! God bless her.

I know very little about Adam Badeau other than his friendship with Edwin Booth and from what I learned in a talk given years ago. All I can say is that he was a rather odd duck also, IMO. I'm not sure that he would show much respect for womankind...

David - Since Eva resides in Germany, it is a little inconvenient for her to conduct research at and discuss things with Joan Chaconas and I at Surratt House. I suspect that you live closer, so I would invite you to visit and utilize the James O. Hall Research Center. You do need to make an appointment in advance, and there is a fee for duplication of materials. We do not do research for you. However, our librarian is quite the Lincoln addict and collector in her own right.

Thanks Linda...wow. MTL was out of control at City Point, there is simply no way to pretty it up, is there? The sad thing is that there were some wonderful accomplishments Mary made as First Lady. She cared passionately about preserving the beauty and dignity of the President's House, as Mrs. John F. Kennedy would a hundred years later, and was the most charming, accomplished of hostesses. She was an angel to the wounded, hospitalized Union soldiers...visiting them with delicacies and gifts, writing to their families. She cared deeply about the problems of the misplaced former slaves living in miserable conditions around D.C. She was fiercely loyal to her husband and the Union cause.

But in one fell incident of neurosis and irrationality at City Point she seemed to wipe it all away and insure that people will mostly remember her as AL's great personal Cross to bear. What a shame.

Laurie,

All I can say is you should feel relieved that I don't live anywhere near Surratt House...I'd be visiting and skulking around so much your staff would need a restraining order against me...Surratt House sounds right up my alley!

(05-31-2014 06:55 PM)L Verge Wrote:  The memoirs of Julia Grant makes one think of "premonition" immediately. I might add that, if Julia was that persuasive to get her husband to turn down a Presidential invitation, then she evidently had a bit of a feminine backbone also! God bless her.

Grant didn't want to go to the theater either so he was glad he had a reason to excuse himself. He had spent the previous evening with Mrs. Lincoln viewing the illuminations. (Mrs. Grant was annoyed because she wanted to see the illuminations with her husband first so he went with her and the Stantons and then accompanied Mrs. Lincoln.) Mrs. Lincoln was upset because the crowds were cheering for Grant rather than her husband.

I found the following anecdote:

"Grant's relationship with President Lincoln was largely unaffected by the difficult relationships engendered by Mrs. Lincoln with Grant's wife. Mary Lincoln was highly jealous of any attentions granted by her husband to another woman. When she visited the Richmond front in April 1865, she erupted several times at Mrs. Grant over what she regarded as improper liberties granted the wives of Union generals. Historian John Y. Simon wrote:
'On April 7, the day Grant first asked Lee to surrender, [Julia Grant and the wife of General John A. Rawlins] received a telegram from Ulysses telling them to return home. Grant expected to be absent ten or twelve days longer, to go to Danville, and to unite with Sherman, who was then in North Carolina, in crushing the remnants of the rebel forces. Julia proudly noted on the telegram that she 'did not obey' but remained at City Point and eventually returned to Washington escorted by victorious generals.'
'While Grant cornered Lee, Julia visited the Lincolns on the River Queen. She understood that Mary Lincoln did not welcome her company. Somewhat miffed that Lincoln had visited Richmond without her, Julia made her own visit to the Confederate capital, weeping when she reflected on the human cost of war. When she returned, she learned that the Lincolns, about to return to Washington, had not invited her to a final reception on board their boat. Julia decided to embark upon a James River cruise with her friends, took along a band, and had it play 'Now You'll Remember Me' as her boat passed the River Queen. Julia had acquired a sense of social standing that eclipsed that of her husband.'"19

19. Carol K. Bleser and Lesley J. Gordon, Intimate Strategies of the Civil War: Military Commanders and Their Wives, p. 135.

http://www.mrlincolnandfriends.org/insid...ubjectID=8

Well, I guess the Grants got the final revenge. Many years later when Mary was a widow living completely alone in France the Grants made a triumphal sweep across Europe being feted by Royalty and heads-of-state. They were guests of honor at a banquet almost literally next door to where the lonely, sick woman was staying and they refused to even pay her a courtesy call. I realize that Mary had done nothing during her glory days as First Lady to earn their friendship. But Ulysses and Julia Grant had the world at their feet at that point. Mary, widow of the man Grant would call "incontestably, the greatest man I have ever known," had lost everything.

I think a courtesy call would have been a gracious gesture.

(05-31-2014 08:07 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Well, I guess the Grants got the final revenge. Many years later when Mary was a widow living completely alone in France the Grants made a triumphal sweep across Europe being feted by Royalty and heads-of-state. They were guests of honor at a banquet almost literally next door to where the lonely, sick woman was staying and they refused to even pay her a courtesy call. I realize that Mary had done nothing during her glory days as First Lady to earn their friendship. But Ulysses and Julia Grant had the world at their feet at that point. Mary, widow of the man Grant would call "incontestably, the greatest man I have ever known," had lost everything.

I think a courtesy call would have been a gracious gesture.

I agree with you, Toia, or they could have at least made the offer and let Mrs. Lincoln decide if she wanted to see them.

Did the Grants even know that Mary was in that close proximity? Yes, I agree with Linda, that Mary did nothing to endear herself to them when her husband was President, but then that was simply Mary! She had strong likes and dislikes - and it appears that it did not stand well for her in later years.

Betty O,
They claimed later that they did not know she was nearby but I doubt that is true. They were reportedly told that the president's widow was living across the street by guests at the banquet. I think they just wanted to avoid her and as sad as I feel for MTL I can't say I blame them. Mary was her own worst enemy. She went out of her way to make enemies when she was riding high...and people had long memories.

As I've posted before, if she is guilty of even half the things people accuse her of, her last years on earth should have been enough to satisfy her bitterest enemies that she paid in full for her sins.

(05-31-2014 09:55 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Betty O,
They claimed later that they did not know she was nearby but I doubt that is true. They were reportedly told that the president's widow was living across the street by guests at the banquet. I think they just wanted to avoid her and as sad as I feel for MTL I can't say I blame them. Mary was her own worst enemy. She went out of her way to make enemies when she was riding high...and people had long memories.

“I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.”

Maya Angelou

Quote:“I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.”

Maya Angelou

Definitely true!

Yes indeed. Very true! R.I.P. Maya Angelou-

(05-31-2014 02:31 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  I found it unfair towards Mary that you, without giving any proof, made of a so far unproven "possibly more" "THE relationship of W.S.W. and M. L.":

(05-30-2014 08:48 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  I wanted to know if you are going to provide an analysis of the relationship of William S. Wood and Mary Lincoln, wife of the President of the United States, sometime soon.

IMO such is the way how rumors grow and people start to believe them without scrutinizing what they are believing.

HistorianJoan Chaconas' statement based on her research on W. Wood is for me sufficient to confirm what I personally believe: Mary sure had several "weaknesses", but I believe she had an attitude towards marriage and motherhood that regarding intimacy with other men outlawed anything beyond charming conversations.

In what posting that I made was there a claim made by me that there was an illicit relationship between William S. Wood and Mary Lincoln? Please provide the specific posting reference number.

Does this mean that Laurie Verge and you are not going to do the promised analysis of the POSSIBLE illicit sexual relationship between William S. Wood and Mary Lincoln?

Seriously, are you going to rely solely on the statement of a "Lincoln historian" that I have never heard of as the definitive answer to the question at hand? I believe that "historian Joan Chaconas" works on the staff of Laurie Verge. And, Laurie Verge refers to any criticism of Mary Todd, legitimate or otherwise, as "Mary Todd Lincoln bashing."

This is ridiculous!

Roger Norton has provided to you a reference to the scholarly work of Professor Michael Burlingame on this specific subject matter. The documenation contained therein might lead you to the work on the subject of other recognized Lincoln scholars in whom you might have greater faith and confidence, such as Ida Tarbell.

Remember: "If you don't look under any rocks, nothing is going to crawl out!" You wrote above: "people start to believe [], without scrutinizing what they are believing." I suggest that you start doing your own scrutinizing.

(06-01-2014 10:50 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  This is ridiculous!

Finally something to agree on.
To me it makes no sense to discuss on the level of ridiculousness.
PS: Please notice, I have never promised you an analysis.

(05-30-2014 10:23 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  As grief stricken as AL undoubtedly was by Ann's death, he was back at his duties as postmaster a month later(Sept 22) and within a year he was pursuing another woman with at least the idea of marriage in mind.

Willie Lincoln died on February 20, 1862. "By the end of February, Lincoln had regained enough strength to resume his duties. D. W. Bartlett noted that he 'is frequently called up three and four times in a night to receive important messages from the West. Since his late bereavement he looks sad and care-worn, but he is in very good health again.'" (Professor Burlingame, "Abraham Lincoln: A Life" Vol. Two, page 299.)

As to your second point stating "within a year he was pursuing another woman with at least the idea of marriage in mind":

For the wives of military men (some with children) whose husbands have fallen in Iraq or Afghanistan, what is considered to be the "proper" length of time before a woman should consider romance again and moving on with their lives? Is it one year? two years? three years? Never?

You seem to have made yourself an expert on answering this question.