What Was The Role of David Herold

[GARY POPOLO]

(12-29-2012 06:06 PM)L Verge Wrote:  An assassination topic that seems to have no clear answer is: What was the role of David Herold on the night of April 14, 1865? Was he to chaperone Lewis Powell? Keep an eye on Atzerodt? Guide Booth?

Members of the Surratt Society will be treated to an extensive article on this subject in the upcoming February issue of the Courier. The author is John Fazio, who I believe is a member of this forum. Mr. Fazio is a lawyer and lays out the scenario and his thoughts in gunshot blasts.

Anyone want to chime in here on his/her opinions and then compare them in about a month when the Courier goes out to members? Did Herold accompany Powell? Did he desert Powell? Was he a point man to see that others carried through and report to Booth? Thoughts???

All that I have read about David Herold was that his misson was to help Powell to escape the city of washington and meet up with Booth after killing Secretary Seward. Powell not knowing the city very well needed David to help find his way. But as fate would have it David Herold became frightened when all went wrong with the attemped murder and he rode off leaving Powell to fend for himself. I don't recall reading any other theory about Davids purpose with regards to himself and Powell. I will be very interested in hearing other peoples thoughts on this subject.

[John E.]

I believe that Herold's responsibility that evening was to be the point / signal man of all three attacks.

If all the attacks were to be coordinated, someone had to relay to the others that things were still a "go". So, Herold seeing that Booth was going through with the assassination, rode somewhere near Seward's home to signal to Powell that things were moving forward. Powell received the signal and proceeded.

Herold then went to signal Atzerodt to do the same. He very well could have been the person that went to the room at the Kirkwood and tried to open the door. Atzerodt said he didn't relinquish the keys to Herold. Makes sense.

Like Wesley said, this is all speculation without proof. Still fun to guess.

[BettyO]

Quote:I believe that Herold's responsibility that evening was to be the point / signal man of all three attacks.

If all the attacks were to be coordinated, someone had to relay to the others that things were still a "go". So, Herold seeing that Booth was going through with the assassination, rode somewhere near Seward's home to signal to Powell that things were moving forward. Powell received the signal and proceeded.

Herold then went to signal Atzerodt to do the same. He very well could have been the person that went to the room at the Kirkwood and tried to open the door. Atzerodt said he didn't relinquish the keys to Herold. Makes sense.

Like Wesley said, this is all speculation without proof. Still fun to guess.

I have to agree with what both John and Wesley have said here -

To say that Herold was Powell's "escort" seems rather silly in that Powell was able to

A) find his way to the Surratt House in January of 1865

B) was able to find his way BACK to the Surratt House in March of 1865

C) was able to find the Herndon House when he returned from NY in April

D) he was able to find the Seward home on at least a couple of occasions previous to the attack in order to check on Seward's condition and possibly flirt with one of Seward's parlor maids

E) he sure was able to find his way back to the Surratt House rather late at night on the 17th of April after being tired, hungry, uneasy and "on the lam".....

So.....it seems Powell had at least some recognition of DC "sites" and would not probably need an escort. Yes, as Wesley says, it's all just speculation - but it IS an enticing speculation at that.

It does seem that someone was appointed to make sure that all the "loose ends" of the simultaneous attacks worked together - JWB, Powell and Atzerodt. Herold also probably did, as a pharmacist's assistant, give Powell the idea for the ruse of a doctor's delivery boy -

There is also speculation about the "whistles" heard outside of Ford's before the attack on the president. That has never been resolved as well...coincidence or otherwise?

So - Herold as "point man?" Good Point!

[RJNorton]

Regarding the little "prescription" package Powell held while talking to William Bell...has it ever been determined what really was in the package, if anything?

Also, regarding Mike Kauffman's explanation that Herold was sent by Powell to tell the others to delay the attacks...as far as I can tell, there can only be two sources that could possibly have this information: (1) a statement by Herold or (2) a statement by Powell. Is it possible Powell told Eckert this, and that is the source Mike Kauffman used?

[GARY POPOLO]

Hello and Happy New Year to everyone. I have to say that this is the very reson that I joined this forum. I never realized there was so much that I never knew about Lincoln, his life and his assassins. I appreciate very much all the facts and theories that are posted each day. Thank you all for the lessons learned! Gary

[John Fazio]

(12-29-2012 06:06 PM)L Verge Wrote:  An assassination topic that seems to have no clear answer is: What was the role of David Herold on the night of April 14, 1865? Was he to chaperone Lewis Powell? Keep an eye on Atzerodt? Guide Booth?

Members of the Surratt Society will be treated to an extensive article on this subject in the upcoming February issue of the Courier. The author is John Fazio, who I believe is a member of this forum. Mr. Fazio is a lawyer and lays out the scenario and his thoughts in gunshot blasts.

Anyone want to chime in here on his/her opinions and then compare them in about a month when the Courier goes out to members? Did Herold accompany Powell? Did he desert Powell? Was he a point man to see that others carried through and report to Booth? Thoughts???

---

Laurie:

Thank you for posting an announcement of the upcoming article and inviting discussion re the same. I am reading all the responses. This is a subject I thought I had covered all the bases on, but surprisingly and happily I am picking up new insights from the responses. It is too late to work them into the article, but I will work them into the book. This is a very valuable resource, to put it mildly.

John

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(12-30-2012 05:35 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  I agree that getting a clear answer on this is difficult. I will jot down a variety of thoughts and will stand corrected where I go wrong. I certainly look forward to Mr. Fazio's article and research.

I believe Dave Taylor once traced the original mention of Herold being at Seward's to George Alfred Townsend's (GATH's) Lady of Catoctin in 1886. Other authors, such as David Dewitt in 1909, said the same thing. This trend has continued to the present day. Virtually all authors have David Herold accompanying Lewis Powell to Seward's. Yet we have absolutely no eyewitnesses or solid evidence that this happened.

Some authors have implied that Powell didn't know his directions, and Herold was needed to guide him to Seward's. Yet George Robinson, a male nurse at Seward's, apparently saw Powell "scouting" the Seward residence on the mornings of the 13th and 14th. There is no mention of Herold. And we know Herold was on a scouting mission "in the country" on April 13th. So it would seem Powell could find the Seward residence without assistance.

As far as the trial goes, I can think of only two witnesses who even said they saw Herold in Washington on the 14th. These men were John Fletcher and Silas Cobb. Their testimony does not help in pinning down exactly what Herold's role was in Booth's scheme for the 14th. Atzerodt's statement also does not answer the question of whether Herold was with Powell at Seward's.

When Powell knocked at the door and William Bell opened it, did he see Herold in the street with the horses? It was dark, and maybe this would not be possible, but Bell never said he saw Herold.

Did Herold return to the Kirkwood House after leaving Powell at Seward's (if he was at Seward's and that's a big if)? Mrs. Jones, wife of the Kirkwood House's bookkeeper, said she heard a person moving quickly towards Atzerodt's room, trying excitedly to open the door without success and then running back downstairs. Was it Herold whom Mrs. Jones heard? Impossible to say for certain. Apparently Mrs. Jones never opened her door to see who was making all the racket in the hallway.

When at Lloyd's, Booth apparently told Lloyd that he was pretty certain that both Lincoln and Seward had been assassinated. There was no mention of Johnson. Did Herold tell Booth that Powell entered the Seward residence, and he heard screams, then rode off? Or did Booth simply have a high degree of confidence that Powell would carry out his assignment? Did Herold ride to the Kirkwood House and while there realize that Atzerodt had made no attempt to kill Johnson?

Was Herold himself supposed to kill Johnson but didn't do it?

I think there are a lot more questions than answers regarding Herold's actions in Washington on April 14th.

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Roger:

Thank you for asking the right questions and making the right observations. Townsend's book, I believe, is fiction. I do not regard it as a good source, for that reason. Weichmann, otherwise a good source, places Herold with Powell, but he had no direct knowledge of it and was writing many years later in Indiana, far removed in time and place. It seems to me he was merely repeating what he had heard elsewhere. He cites no authority for the proposition, but then, neither does anyone else. Even the more recent masters cite no authority, because, to my knowledge, there is none. In my opinion, Booth's leaving Johnson out of the tally is key. Since he went directly from Ford's to Maryland, with no contact with either Atzerodt or Powell, he could only have received such information from Herold. That means Herold knew to a certainty that Johnson had not been assassinated. He could only have acquired that information by either being at the Kirkwood or by meeting Atzerodt or both. If he was at the Kirkwood and/or met Atzerodt, clearly he was not with Powell, who, by his own statement, was heading for Baltimore. Re your last question, recall that Booth praised Herold for his courage, berated Atzerodt for his lack of it, and then said to Atzerodt, in response to the latter's saying he wouldn't or couldn't do it, "then Herold will do it". That too is key.

John

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(12-30-2012 11:50 AM)Linda Anderson Wrote:  Seward's next door neighbor was Benjamin Ogle Tayloe who had strong ties to the Confederacy. According to an April 16, 1865 article in the Daily National Intelligencer, Tayloe's servant saw Powell ride up to Seward's house. There is no mention of anyone accompanying Powell.

"A servant boy of Mr. Ogle Tayloe, who resides next door to Mr. Seward, saw the assassin ride up to the door of the latter and fasten his horse to the lamp-post. A few minutes afterwards Major Seward came to the door and told the boy to cry 'Murder!' asserting, at the same time, that the murderer was still in the house."

According to the Daily National Republican dated April, 18, 1865, Tayloe's servant, Ben, gave a statement that he saw Powell run out of the house after Powell attacked Seward. I have not been able to find the paper's "extra of Saturday."

"Mr. Tayloe's servant, Ben, corrects his statement published in our extra of Saturday, in relation to what he saw and heard as he stood at Mr. Seward's door Friday night. It was Governor Seward's servant and not Major Seward, who came first to the door and gave the alarm. He preceeded the assassin in coming out of the house, and said to Mr. Tayloe's servant, 'A man is in the house murdering everybody; run for your life and cry murder!' This was done by Ben who ran to the corner of Madison Place and Pennsylvania Avenue, and returned immediately, followed by several unarmed soldiers. When nearly opposite Mr. Seward's house again, a man came out of it, with a dagger in his hand, mounted his horse, and set off at a deliberate pace towards the north, until he reached Sixteenth street, when he went off at full speed, and disappeared around the corner of Governor Morgan's house, on Fifteenth and I streets, going towards the east."

Of course, this does not prove that Herold wasn't there either!

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Ms. Anderson:

Thank you for this valuable information, which had not previously come to my attention. In my opinion, the first sentence is especially significant. If it doesn't prove Herold did not accompany Powell, it is at least strongly probative of that conclusion.

John C. Fazio

[Linda Anderson]

(01-02-2013 02:37 PM)John Fazio Wrote:  

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Ms. Anderson:

Thank you for this valuable information, which had not previously come to my attention. In my opinion, the first sentence is especially significant. If it doesn't prove Herold did not accompany Powell, it is at least strongly probative of that conclusion.

John C. Fazio

You are very welcome and please call me Linda.

George Robinson gave an interview which was published on July 31, 1897 in the Norfolk Virginian (Pomona, Cal., Dispatch in Boston Advertiser), Chronicling America.

"The evening of the 14th was beautiful and clear. At a little before 10 p.m., when the Secretary was sleeping easily, the house was closed for the night. Mrs. Seward had gone to her sleeping room. Frederick Seward, second son of the Secretary, had retired. Miss Fannie Seward, a daughter, and I sat in the sick chamber on the third floor. Miss Seward was near the bed. Her father lay propped up in bed. Just before ten o'clock, the sound of a man was heard down in the hall. It was afterwards learned that the porter saw a tall young man on horseback dash up to the stone curbing."

Is the porter that Robinson is referring to William H. Bell? John Elliott and Barry Cauchon wrote an article titled "George Foster Robinson" that was published in the October 2010 Surratt Courier. The article includes "Private Robinson's most detailed account of his battle with Powell [which] is housed at the Pearce Museum at Navarro College in Corsincana, TX." This account is dated 1879. Robinson does not mention the porter seeing the tall young man ride up to the Sewards' front door but he constantly refers to William H. Bell as the "porter."

So did Bell see Powell ride up to the front door? He didn't testify that he did but no one asked him that directly either.

[JMadonna]

Herold was supposed to kill Johnson after Atzerodt refused - but, he left his gun in Atzerodt's room & George refused to give him the key. After that refusal, Herold had no role so he scampered back to his master.

No one saw him near Seward or the Kirkwood he was spotted only when he was scampering to the bridge after Booth. He was a mere messenger boy that night.

[Jim Garrett]

I kinda agree with Jerry. I think JWB did not assign Herold a victem. I do believe he did not encumber Herold with a "hit" so that he would be able to get him down through Southern Maryland. He needed him more as a guide than as an assassin. I still think it's more than coincidence that Michael O'Laughlin just happened to be in town drinking.

[J. Beckert]

I think you're both right and I do believe Herold would have killed Johnson if he had a gun. I think he fell for Booth's bravado hook, line and sinker until the morning of April 26th.

[Linda Anderson]

(12-31-2012 05:01 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Do we know the name of the doctor who departed? I am assuming there was a horse or buggy in front of Seward's home when Powell and Herold(?) arrived, but how would they know it belonged to a doctor?

I wonder how long Powell was watching the house before he rang the doorbell. Maybe he saw Dr. Norris arrive with a doctor's kit. As Mike Kauffman wrote in American Brutus, a doctor in the house would certainly ruin Booth's plan.

Here is another interview Robinson gave describing Powell's arrival. National Tribune, May 8, 1902; originally published in the New York Sun. Chronicling America.

"A few minutes after 10 o'clock I hear a man's voice in the vestibule below. Miss Seward heard the voice also and we went to the door to hear the better. We learned afterwards that the speakers were the negro porter and a stranger. The stranger had dashed up on horseback, thrown himself to the ground and hurriedly sought admittance. He said he was an assistant of Dr. Verdi, and had been sent to the house with medicine and special instructions."

[Art Loux]

[quote='RJNorton' pid='10331' dateline='1357134152']
Regarding the little "prescription" package Powell held while talking to William Bell...has it ever been determined what really was in the package, if anything?

Roger, my comments are prompted by reading this thread. Herold and Atzerodt were observed several times on Friday, April 14. My speculation about Herold’s role is at the end of this.

8 a.m. As desk clerk Walter Burton was going off duty he ran into Herold in the hall. Herold explained he was looking for Booth, so Burton took him to Booth’s room, opened the door and found the room empty and that the bed had not been slept in. (Clarke, Abraham Lincoln in the National Capital, p 95, quoting The Sunday Star, January 24, 1909.) Herold must have found Booth - see next item.

11:00 estimated. Quoting Atzerodt “Sometime in the morning Herold came and wanted I should go down to Surrattsville. He said Booth had something there and wanted me to see after them. They were in Mrs. Surratt’s old house kept by Lloyd and I agreed to go. I went and hired a horse.” (Atzerodt Confession, April 25, 1865 in LASE p 63 where LASE is an abbreviation for LINCOLN ASSASSINATION - THE EVIDENCE.) Obviously Herold had seen Booth in the morning. Later Booth stopped by Mrs. Surratt’s house about 11 a.m. and learned she intended to go to Surrattsville.

12:00 Booth walked down 10th Street and ran into Harry Ford. Booth was probably walking to the Kirkwood House to tell Atzerodt not to go to Surrattsville.

12:45 (10:30 per Fletcher in LASE 513) Herold rented a horse at Nailor’s and said he would pick it up at 4:00. (Pitman 331.)

12-1. Herold went to the Kirkwood House to see Atzerodt. They left together. (Atzerodt Confession, Apr 25,1865 in LASE 62.) I presume Herold was sent by Booth to tell Atzerodt not to go to Surrattsville. He had seen Mrs. Surratt and she would deliver his message and binoculars.

2:00 Herold mounted on a medium sized roan (where did he get a horse?) and a taller companion (Powell was much taller, Atzerodt a little taller) dressed in light clothes mounted on the one-eyed horse stabled their horses near the Navy Yard at 2:00 and returned for them at 4:30 or 5. (M. J. Pope in LASE 1058) Between 3 and 4 Herold, Atzerodt and another man (Powell?) stopped at a restaurant near the Navy Yard. Herold told the proprietor he was leaving for New York that night to work in a drugstore. (James Steele in LASE 1195)

5:00 Scipio Grillo who with his partner Taltavul kept a bar near Ford’s Theatre ran into Herold at 5:00. Herold asked if Grillo had seen Booth. Grillo said he saw Booth at 4:00 when he had a drink had a drink at Grillo’s. Herold, mistakenly thinking Gen. Robert E. Lee was in town at Willard’s Hotel, asked Grillo if he wanted to go there and attempt to see the general. They walked along Pennsylvania Avenue and encountered Atzerodt sitting on the steps of the Kirkwood House. After a minute or two the two men continued their walk to Willard’s. Not finding General Lee the men walked back along E Street toward Grover’s where they parted. (Scipiano Grillo in Surratt Trial 1:176-78.)

6:00-7:00 In the evening (or the night previous) Herold entered the Star Saloon and asked if Booth had been there. The bartender did not know. (Taltavul in Poore I:180.)

6:30. Atzerodt was in his room at the Kirkwood House. (R. R. Jones in LASE 60.) Booth sent Herold to bring Atzerodt to a restaurant to meet. Herold left a knife, a loaded pistol and a coat. (Atzerdt Confession, Balt Am, 1869.) The coat belonged to Booth and in the pockets were Booth’s Ontario bank book, a map of Virginia, a pair of new gauntlets, three boxes of cartridges, a toothbrush, a spur, a pair of socks and two collars. (John Lee Testimony, Poore I:62-69.) The contents of the coat indicate that Booth had packed it with a few items of use in his escape. Why did Herold have the coat and why did he leave it in Atzerodt’s room? Booth must have asked Herold to bring the coat with him. Herold must have intended to return to Atzerodt’s room to get the coat.

Powell thought Herold was a “little blab” He told Booth he was never satisfied with Herold. (Impeachment Investigation, p. 674.)

Speculation: Herold’s job was not to guide Powell to Seward’s; it was to guide him to the Navy Yard Bridge where all four were to meet after completing their respective assignments. Herold was also supposed to bring JWB’s jacket which he had packed for the escape. After stopping at the Kirkwood House at 10:00 Atzerodt, in an alcoholic haze, rode to the Capitol hoping to run into Booth and, not finding him, returned his horse, looked for the boys at the Herndon House and rode the streetcar to the Navy Yard hoping they were waiting for him.

[RJNorton]

(01-07-2013 04:53 PM)Art Loux Wrote:  Booth must have asked Herold to bring the coat with him. Herold must have intended to return to Atzerodt’s room to get the coat.

Art, thank you very much for your expertise in laying everything out for us. This could explain what Mrs. Jones heard in the hallway. I think Atzerodt's room was locked (somebody please correct me if I am wrong on that), and Herold, if he is indeed whom Mrs. Jones heard, made quite a racket pounding on the door (actually 3 doors if I remember Mrs. Jones' statement correctly).

[Jim Garrett]

(01-07-2013 04:53 PM)Art Loux Wrote:  [quote='RJNorton' pid='10331' dateline='1357134152']
Regarding the little "prescription" package Powell held while talking to William Bell...has it ever been determined what really was in the package, if anything?

Roger, my comments are prompted by reading this thread. Herold and Atzerodt were observed several times on Friday, April 14. My speculation about Herold’s role is at the end of this.

8 a.m. As desk clerk Walter Burton was going off duty he ran into Herold in the hall. Herold explained he was looking for Booth, so Burton took him to Booth’s room, opened the door and found the room empty and that the bed had not been slept in. (Clarke, Abraham Lincoln in the National Capital, p 95, quoting The Sunday Star, January 24, 1909.) Herold must have found Booth - see next item.

11:00 estimated. Quoting Atzerodt “Sometime in the morning Herold came and wanted I should go down to Surrattsville. He said Booth had something there and wanted me to see after them. They were in Mrs. Surratt’s old house kept by Lloyd and I agreed to go. I went and hired a horse.” (Atzerodt Confession, April 25, 1865 in LASE p 63 where LASE is an abbreviation for LINCOLN ASSASSINATION - THE EVIDENCE.) Obviously Herold had seen Booth in the morning. Later Booth stopped by Mrs. Surratt’s house about 11 a.m. and learned she intended to go to Surrattsville.

12:00 Booth walked down 10th Street and ran into Harry Ford. Booth was probably walking to the Kirkwood House to tell Atzerodt not to go to Surrattsville.

12:45 (10:30 per Fletcher in LASE 513) Herold rented a horse at Nailor’s and said he would pick it up at 4:00. (Pitman 331.)

12-1. Herold went to the Kirkwood House to see Atzerodt. They left together. (Atzerodt Confession, Apr 25,1865 in LASE 62.) I presume Herold was sent by Booth to tell Atzerodt not to go to Surrattsville. He had seen Mrs. Surratt and she would deliver his message and binoculars.

2:00 Herold mounted on a medium sized roan (where did he get a horse?) and a taller companion (Powell was much taller, Atzerodt a little taller) dressed in light clothes mounted on the one-eyed horse stabled their horses near the Navy Yard at 2:00 and returned for them at 4:30 or 5. (M. J. Pope in LASE 1058) Between 3 and 4 Herold, Atzerodt and another man (Powell?) stopped at a restaurant near the Navy Yard. Herold told the proprietor he was leaving for New York that night to work in a drugstore. (James Steele in LASE 1195)

5:00 Scipio Grillo who with his partner Taltavul kept a bar near Ford’s Theatre ran into Herold at 5:00. Herold asked if Grillo had seen Booth. Grillo said he saw Booth at 4:00 when he had a drink had a drink at Grillo’s. Herold, mistakenly thinking Gen. Robert E. Lee was in town at Willard’s Hotel, asked Grillo if he wanted to go there and attempt to see the general. They walked along Pennsylvania Avenue and encountered Atzerodt sitting on the steps of the Kirkwood House. After a minute or two the two men continued their walk to Willard’s. Not finding General Lee the men walked back along E Street toward Grover’s where they parted. (Scipiano Grillo in Surratt Trial 1:176-78.)

6:00-7:00 In the evening (or the night previous) Herold entered the Star Saloon and asked if Booth had been there. The bartender did not know. (Taltavul in Poore I:180.)

6:30. Atzerodt was in his room at the Kirkwood House. (R. R. Jones in LASE 60.) Booth sent Herold to bring Atzerodt to a restaurant to meet. Herold left a knife, a loaded pistol and a coat. (Atzerdt Confession, Balt Am, 1869.) The coat belonged to Booth and in the pockets were Booth’s Ontario bank book, a map of Virginia, a pair of new gauntlets, three boxes of cartridges, a toothbrush, a spur, a pair of socks and two collars. (John Lee Testimony, Poore I:62-69.) The contents of the coat indicate that Booth had packed it with a few items of use in his escape. Why did Herold have the coat and why did he leave it in Atzerodt’s room? Booth must have asked Herold to bring the coat with him. Herold must have intended to return to Atzerodt’s room to get the coat.

Powell thought Herold was a “little blab” He told Booth he was never satisfied with Herold. (Impeachment Investigation, p. 674.)

Speculation: Herold’s job was not to guide Powell to Seward’s; it was to guide him to the Navy Yard Bridge where all four were to meet after completing their respective assignments. Herold was also supposed to bring JWB’s jacket which he had packed for the escape. After stopping at the Kirkwood House at 10:00 Atzerodt, in an alcoholic haze, rode to the Capitol hoping to run into Booth and, not finding him, returned his horse, looked for the boys at the Herndon House and rode the streetcar to the Navy Yard hoping they were waiting for him.

Excellent time line. Gene Smith in "American Gothic" also has that JWB did not sleep in his room, per the maid, she went to his room to make his bed, and it was not slept in. Smith also has that Booth had breakfast at the hotel and then went for a shave. Thank you again Mr. Loux.

[Laurie Verge]

Art,

Thank you so much for hopping in on this one. Your book, John Wilkes Booth Day by Day, will be a wonderful addition to all of our libraries when the update is complete. Your reference to Atzerodt's riding the trolley to the Navy Yard after the assassination makes a lot of sense to me now - when it never did before. Your speculation that Herold was to get Powell to the bridge is also workable, since most of Powell's D.C. travels seem to have centered around the opposite (northern) side of the city and the Navy Yard Bridge is across town (south). The only hitch for me is that I think Powell intended to head north to the Bransons in Baltimore.