What Was The Role of David Herold

[Clarence]

(09-20-2017 05:40 PM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote:  To complicate matters a little more, a Francis Walsh, who said that he had employed Herold for 11 months, testified on his behalf at the conspiracy trial:

By MR. STONE:

Q. Where do you reside?
A. In the city of Washington, on Eighth Street, east.
Q. How long have you resided there?
A. Since 1837.
Q. Do you know the prisoner, David E. Herold?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long have you known him?
A. I cannot tell how long I have known him, but since he was a boy. I have known him for a great many years. I have known him intimately since October, 1863.
Q. State to the court whether or not he has been in your employ.
A. Yes, sir: he has been in my employ eleven months as a clerk.
Q. What is your business?
A. Druggist.
Q. State to the Court, as near as you can, his character.
A. While he was in my employ, he lived in my house, and I know of nothing objectionable in his character. He was like most youngsters, light, trifling in a great many things; but, as to his moral character, I never saw any thing to find fault with. He was temperate in his habits, and regular in his hours.
Q. Was he or not, in his general character, more of a boy than a man?
A. I think he was.
Q. Was he or not easily persuaded or influenced by any one around him?
A. I should think he was.
Q. State to the Court whether you did or did not consider him rather remarkable for his trivial character, easily to be influenced and led away.
A. Yes: I think he was more than usually so for young men of his years.
Q. He was boyish in every respect?
A. Yes, sir.

Reviewing the cursive letters from the time period, I see the capital “J”, “F”, and “Q” were quite similar. In Herold’s voluntary confession you can find a mention of a “Forest Queen”. Check out the F and Q. Also, the writer’s capital “J” in the document does not match the purported “J”. I think it is safe to say what has been mentioned as written “J S Ward” is really written as “F S Ward”. I agree “Ward” should have been “Walsh”. It fits with the testimony of Francis S. Walsh.

[Clarence]

The following is a transcription of the handwritten document of David Herold’s voluntary statement after his arrest. The grammar and punctuation are as they were in the document – assuming “auto correct” did not fix anything without my knowledge. – Clarence A. Stiehm II

Voluntary Statement of David E. Herold, made before the Honorable John A. Bingham, Special Judge Advocate, on the 27th day of April, 1865, on board the monitor “Montauk”, lying off the Navy Yard, Washington, D.C.

Question. What is your age and where do you live?

Answer. I am twenty two years of age. My mother lives on Eighth street east, between L and M, Washington. I have not lived there two or three years, having been in the drug business. I lived in Maryland at one time.

Question. Where were you living last year?

Answer. I lived with F.S. Ward, (This appears to be a mistake by the person writing down the confession. “Ward” is most likely “Walsh” as in Francis S. Walsh who testified in the trial as having employed Herold.) druggist, Washington City.

Question. How long did you live with him?

Answer. I lived with him eleven months exactly. I left him in the early part of the fall, and went to Maryland. I do not remember the exact time. I am passionately fond of partridge shooting, and nearly every fall take two or three months for that purpose. I came back home to my mother, and have been endeavoring to obtain a situation. I did not wish to do any thing until after January. I had a clerkship given me at Base Hospital, Army of the James, by Capt. Burrill (The name appears to be Burrill, but the handwriting is difficult to make out), on the 21st of March. I then told him I would be down by the first. Previous to this time I went to the country, and was fox hunting. In jumping a fence I knocked my ancle out of place, and was in bed two weeks. This happened in Prince George County, Maryland.

Question. At whose house were you?

Answer. I was stopping with a gentleman named Walter Edelin (The more common spelling is Edelen.) I stopped there once or twice. I have numerous acquaintances – indeed know nearly every one in Maryland, especially in Piscataway District. I sometimes would board in a hotel. I went to Maryland between the 21st and 1st of April, when the horse fell with me.

Question. Were you down to see Capt. Burrill before that?

Answer. No, sir; Capt. Burrill was in Washington.

Question. Had you been on the James River?

Answer. No, sir; I never was on the James.

Question. You were in Maryland last fall and this winter.

Answer. Off and on, I was down there the whole fall and winter.

Question. At what other houses did you stay, besides those named?

Answer. I stopped with James B. Burch, who sold his place. I transacted all his business for him and acted as a clerk on the day of the sale. He lived on Piscataway Branch. I also stopped with Mr. Walter Griffin, Mr. Wm A. Jarboe, Mr Phil. Beale, Mr. John Steed, & Mr. John Roberts. I went through the lower counties.
A playbill announcing John Wilkes Booth’s appearance in "The Marble Heart" on November 9, 1863, the same night President Lincoln attends. Courtesy of the National Park Service.

Question. What counties?

Answer. Charles, down to Port Tobacco. I stopped with Mr. Patrick and with Peregrine Davis. They were the only two places at which I stopped there. They are persons I have known five or six years, and whom I have been in the habit of visiting for a long time.

Question. When, if at all, did you first become acquainted with J. Wilkes Booth?

Answer. I do not remember the time exactly. I think I was a clerk with Wm S. Thompson, druggist, corner of 15th st. and New York Avenue, two years ago this spring. It was the night Booth played the “Marble Heart” – about two years ago, the time when Booth had a ball taken from his neck by some Surgeon in Washington. I met Mr. Booth, off and on, sometimes once a week, or maybe two or three times. We would always stand and have a chat. He left the city, and I did not see him for seven or eight months.

Question. Did you have any written correspondence with him?

Answer. I wrote a note some time ago, and left it at the National
Hotel – about three months ago, I think.

Question. Did you ever receive any letters from him?

Answer. No, sir; the only thing I ever received were complimentary invitations to the theatre.

Question. When did you receive them?

Answer. I don’t know. It has been some five or six months ago, but I am not certain.

Question. How many of them did you receive?

Answer. Some five or six. He has invited me to go behind the scenes at different times.

Question. Did you go behind the scenes?

Answer. One night only. He was playing at the time, & I went behind the scenes to see him.

Question. At what particular place have you met Booth? You say you have seen him tow or three times a week.

Answer. At no particular place. I have been to his hotel to see him; I have been to his room.

Question. At what hotel and what room?

Answer. At the National Hotel. I don’t recollect the room. I have met him in the street.

Question. How often did you visit him at the National Hotel?

Answer. I don’t think I went to his room any more than five or six times.

Question. When was it?

Answer. I don’t know. It was in the winter time & this spring.

Question. How long before this occurrence was it that you last visited him at his room?

Answer. I think I was there on Wednesday morning. I went there to see him about some coal oil. He said he was in the coal oil business.

Question. That was the Wednesday morning before this occurred?

Answer. Tuesday or Wednesday morning.

Question. The 11th or 12th day of April, 1865?

Answer. I don’t know about the particular date.

Question. Did you see him on the 14th, last Friday week?

Answer. No; I don’t remember whether I did or not.

Question. Whom did you meet at his room?

Answer. I once met at his room a gentleman by the name of John McCullough, who is also an actor.

Question. Whom else?

Answer. I also met a man named Atzerodt, of Port Tobacco, whom I have known for four years, ever since I have been visiting the country – for five years.

Question. What is his name?

Answer. G.A. Atzerodt.

Question. Whom else did you meet there?

Answer. I went there one afternoon, and there was a lady there, and I didn’t go in. I don’t know who she was.

Question. How often did you meet Atzerodt at his rooms?

Answer. When Atzerodt was stopping at the Pennsylvania House, I was there nearly every day for about two weeks.

Question. When was that?

Answer. He left there, and said he was going to Montgomery, some four or five days before the President was killed. We went to the circus and to Canterbury together. He is a countryman, and as I lived at Patuxent City at one time, we of course went about together in town.

Question. What sort of looking man is Atzerodt?

Answer. He is a man about half an inch toller than I am – about five feet seven inches, tolerably think sets, long dark brown hair, whiskers on his chin and a moustache?

Question. Did you ever meet any other person than Atzerodt along with Booth?

Answer. No, sir; he was the only person I ever met there.

Question. When did you meet Atzerodt in Booth’s room?

Answer. About a month ago.

Question. Who else was there besides you and Atzerodt?

Answer. No one else.

Question. What was said at that time, if any think, by Booth, to either of you, about the President?

Answer. Nothing at all, sir.

Question. What was said about any thing?

Answer. We were talking about horse-trading, the coal-oil business, & theatrical performances.

Question. Did you see Booth on the day of this occurrence?

Answer. I don’t think I did.

Question. Did you see any body else that spoke to you upon this subject that day?

Answer. No, sir; I never had any idea of it that day.

Question. Where did you see Booth after the occurrence?

Answer. I was in the country, & was coming home.

Question. Where were you?

Answer. I had been in the country, trying to sell a horse.

Question. When did you go to the country?

Answer. Friday afternoon.

Question. The 14th of April.

Answer. I don’t know.

Question. Was it the day of this occurrence?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Whose horse were you trying to sell?

Answer. A horse belonging to Atzerodt.

Question. Where did you take the horse?

Answer. I started to go to a gentleman’s, by the name of Judge Parker. I understood he wanted to buy a horse.

Question. Where does he live?

Answer. On the hill above Piscataway, about 17 miles from Washington. I did not, however, go that far.

Question. Where did you go?

Answer. I went to Lloyd’s country tavern, on the road to T.B. in Prince George County. It was late in the night when I arrived there. I believe I took one or two drinks.

Question. What time did you start-from Washington on that journey?

Answer. I don’t know. I was tight. I had been tight nearly all day.

Question. Who asked you to go?

Answer. No one; I asked myself. Atzerodt wanted to sell a horse, and loaned him to me at Shreve’s stable. I asked him to loan me the horse; I told him I could sell him. He had two horses he wanted to sell. Mr. Greenawalt, the proprietor of the Pennsylvania House, bought one of them for $140 on Saturday night. I don’t know whether it was two weeks ago or three weeks ago. It was when the circus was here.

Question. What I want to know is, who asked you on Friday evening to that that horse and sell him?

Answer. No one. I understood from a gentleman by the name of Gregory that Judge Parker wanted to buy a horse something similar to that horse.

Question. What Gregory?

Answer. Lewis Gregory, who used to live at Piscataway, but now lives at Marlboro; where I believe he keeps an oyster house.

Question. When did he tell you that?

Answer. About nine or ten days previous to that.

Question. How did you come to go that Friday afternoon?

Answer. I don’t know how, any more upon that afternoon than any other.

Question. Did nobody tell you any thing about going that day?

Answer. No, sir; it is nothing unusual for me to leave home seven or eight o’clock to go to the country. As I have said, I took one, if not two drinks. I owed Mr. Lloyd two dollars. I gave him a bill – I think it was either one or two dollars and told him it was all the money I had in change. I said, “Mr. Lloyd, here is a bill; you need not give me any change, let it stand.” On my home, at the foot of Saper’s Hill, between seven & eight miles from Washington, I met Booth. He spoke to me.

Question. What time was that?

Answer. I think it must have been about half-past eleven o’clock at night.

Question. The same Friday night you went down?

Answer. Yes, sir; the same Friday. Says Booth, “Come go back down the country; we will have a gay old time.” I told him I was obliged to go back home. He said it was impossible to cross the bridge, for the gates were shut, & he had difficulty in getting over himself. I think Booth must have been drinking; I am quite confident that he had been. He insisted upon my going down to Bryantown with him.

Question. How was he travelling?

Answer. He was riding a bay mare, which I saw in the morning.

Question. Do you know whose it was?

Answer. He hired it in the city, but where I don’t know.

Question. Had he any weapons with him?

Answer. I saw a rifle. When I refused to go, he insisted upon it two or three times, saying that his horse had fallen or he was thrown off, and his ankle sprained. We went to Bryantown, and got there about day. I rode through the country, and he said he was going to see a friend of his. I asked him when he was going to Washington. He said, may be in two or three days, if his foot was well enough. On Saturday night, I heard that Lincoln was shot by a man named Booth. On that night I came to Bryantown, and was coming home. I met him at the cross roads, and said I “The President is killed and either you or your brother did it.” Says he, “No, sir, I have not done it.” I then noticed that he had pistols and a knife on. I said, “What are you armed for?” That was on Saturday. His leg had been set, & was all tied up.

Question. Did you stay with Booth from the time you met him until you were taken?

Answer. No, sir; I was away from him may be as much as four hours, and then met him again. He had then got his ankle set.

Question. Where was it done?

Answer. I asked him, he told me the Doctor’s name. He said that he represented himself (Booth) as a Mr. Tyson, living somewhere near Bryantown.

Question. Had he crutches when you met him first?

Answer. No, sir. Saturday night he had, after we left one another.

Question. You say he had a rifle with him when you met him Friday night? Did you notice a pistol Saturday morning before you parted?

Answer. I didn’t notice it until Saturday afternoon.

Question. Where did you part from Booth?

Answer. Just at Bryantown.

Question. When?

Answer. On Saturday morning, a little after day.

Question. From the time you first met him until you parted with him was there anybody else with him?

Answer. No, sir; we two were alone. When I met him, he says, “Come, let us take a ride down the road. I went to a free darkey’s and bought some bread and milk. I went to a man at Cracklintown (Cracklingtown?), above Bryantown, and got a drink. I don’t know the darkey’s name from whom I got the bread & milk. He lives below Bryantown. I have stopped within a mile where he lives. It was about seven or eight o’clock. We went slowly; Booth would not ride fast. When I accused him a second time of the murder of the President, he said “I did it;” and said also, “If you leave me, there are parties in Washington that will put you through.”

Question. When was it you accused him the first time?

Answer. At Bryantown, Saturday afternoon. When I left him, you know I heard it.

Question. How did you come to hear that the President had been killed, and that a man named Booth had done it?

Answer. Who it was to me, I do not know. I do not know the gentleman’s name.

Question. Where was it?

Answer. It was below Bryantown.

Question. Whereabouts?

Answer. Between Bryantown and Charlotte Hall. If I am not mistaken the gentleman’s name is Canter.

Question. Where did you part with Booth?

Answer. At Bryantown, as I have told you. I then went up the hill.

Question. Where were you to meet him again?

Answer. I didn’t appoint any place to meet him.

Question. Which way did he go?

Answer. He turned into the left hand road at Bryantown.

Question. Where did you meet him after that?

Answer. At the cross roads above Bryantown, about four hours after that.

Question. When you met him you charged him with the murder?

Answer. As soon as I met him. I said, “Booth, the President is killed and a man by the name of Booth did it, and I don’t know whether it was you or your brother.” He denied it, & said, “Come, let us take a ride down the road.” We came to this free darkey’s where I got the bread and milk. I got a drink of whiskey there, too. The darkey said he got the whiskey from Padgett’s. After he had acknowledged that he had done this thing, Booth said, if I left him, he would put me through, and if he didn’t do it, there were parties in Washington that would implicate me. I told him no one could do any thing like that. He said I had been with him, and that they were after me. I told him I didn’t believe him. We got lost. He gave a darkey $5 to show him across the country, to a gentleman’s, named Thomas. We went to Thomas’s at one or two o’clock on Saturday night, and asked him if we could get a boat to cross the Potomac. I said “John, I don’t intend to go with you”. Said he, “You have got to go with me. My leg is broken. If you run away, I will shoot you, & parties in Washington will implicate you.” This gentleman (Thomas) refused to give us any thing to eat. He said he didn’t know who we were; we might be deserters. Booth said, “I demand some whiskey.” Thomas had some, and gave us about half a pint. I begged Booth to let me leave him. I told him I must go home, mother didn’t know where I was. He said that I must stay with him; that if I would go to Mexico with him we would make a fortune as soon as we became acquainted with the Spanish language. I told him it didn’t make any difference about making an independent fortune, I preferred to go home.
In the meantime this gentleman said that J. Wilkes Booth had killed the President and that there was a man named Herold with him; that they were seen at Bryantown. Then I was frightened nearly to death. I said to him, “John, if that is the case, you write a letter to Washington, and let me go home”. He says, “I will not do it; my leg is broken; you must stay with me.” I said, “then I will hide myself, and will not be caught if I can possibly help it.” We went to Secia (Zekiah) Swamp, & staid there two nights. We came out and I tried again to get away, but could not. The next afternoon, about seven o’clock, we went to the Potomac and saw and old bateaw (bateau – a shallow-draft, flat-bottomed boat). (It was Saturday night and Sunday night that we were in the swamp. When we were about taking the boat, a boat was seen coming down shore. I got on my horse and rode off. Booth was afraid to halloo; he got on his horse, and came to where I was. He says “You must cross the river tonight”. I said I would not do it. I said, “I will stop in the pines, and go over with you, if you will give me a letter and let me come back.” We then heard there was $10,000 reward offered for Booth, and that Secretary Seward was killed. That was on Monday and I was told so by a negro, who said that Secretary Seward and two of his sons had been killed. Booth then made the remark that he was very sorry for the sons, but he only wished to God that Seward was killed; and that if a man he called Ed. Henson, or Hanson, I believe, belonging to Mosby’s command, and a man with him, had done their duty, they would have put Johnson through. I don’t know who the other man was. He said “there are 35 others in Washington, and four that night to have joined me, and you could have gone to the devil.”
We staid in the pines, & when any thing came along or passed us we would buy bread or meat. On Tuesday or Wednesday night, I forget which, we started to cross the Potomac. It was very foggy. We got along the Maryland shore to Nanjemoy Creek, & went to a man’s house and wanted to buy some bread. He said he hadn’t any baked, & would not bake any. He said he had nothing to drink either. I said we were wet, and would like to have some thing to drink. I had a bottle, & and asked if he would sell me some whiskey. He said he would not do it. Booth gave the man’s little boy a quarter of a dollar for filling the bottle with milk. That night, at sundown, we crossed the mouth of Najemoy Creek, passed within 300 yards of a gunboat, and landed at Mathias Point. The boat in which we crossed had one paddle and a broken oar in it.

Question. When you crossed, who met you on the other side?

Answer. No one met us. We went to a lady’s house, & asked for accommodations. She said she had no room, two or three of her daughters being sick. She asked me if I belonged to the Federal of Confederate Army. I told her I belonged in Maryland – either Booth or myself said so – I forget which. We then went in sight of the second house, and wanting something to eat, I gave a man a dollar for about 14 or 15 biscuits and three slices of bacon. They would not let us stay at the house all night, & said that the next nearest house was a mile & a half off. Booth complained of his arms being so sore that we stopped in the woods. Next day we saw a house through the pines. We went towards it, & he remained in a field nearby, while I went to the house. We paid a man $10 to carry us 15 or 16 miles. We wanted to go to Dr. Steward’s

Question. What Dr. Stewart’s?

Answer. I don’t know. Met a Confederate soldier, & asked him where Dr. Stewart lived. He told me. Booth represented himself as a Marylanders, wounded in the front of Petersburg. We went to Dr. Stewart’s & want to stop there all night. Dr. Stewart told Booth that his house was full, his married daughters having come home, their husbands being paroled from the army, and that he could not entertain him. Booth complained of being hungry, although we had the biscuits which we had got from the soldiers. We went in and got supper at Dr. Stewart’s. He told the Dr. his name was Boyd. He did the talking; I said nothing. The man who carried us to Dr. Stewart’s waited. He carried us to a free darkey’s, where we staid all night. This darkey asked us where we belonged. Booth said at Danville, & that he wanted to get home, having made his escape from Washington. He said it was about 20 miles from there to Port Conway, on the Rappahannock River.” Booth gave him $25, for staying there all night and to send us to Port Conway. We started Sunday, & got there the middle of the day.
While waiting for a ferry-boat, three confederated soldiers came along. We asked whose command they belonged to. One said to the Ninth Va.; the other two said they belonged to Mosby’s command. They stated they were going to Bowling Green. We wanted a man who lives at Port Conway to carry us to Milford. He said he could not start until sundown. We didn’t want to travel at night, having lost much rest. The three Confederate soldiers, Booth & myself – five of us – crossed the ferry from Port Conway to Port Royal.
I asked the Confederate Captain who was along his name. He said it was Jett. I told him I once met a gentleman in Baltimore by that name from Westmoreland, & asked if he was any relation. He answered, Yes, he was a cousin. We tried to get a conveyance at Port Royal to take us to Milford. While I was trying to get a conveyance, Booth was talking to this man, (Captain Jett.) When I came back he said to Booth, “As long as you are a Virginian and wounded, I will carry you up the country, where you can stay.” He carried him to Garrett’s, and left him there. Whether this gentleman knew Booth’s correct name or not, I don’t know.

Question. Did you go to Garrett’s too?

Answer. I did not. I said I would go to Bowling Green. I wanted to get away. When we came on the road again, this Capt. Jett asked my name. I told him my correct name. He gave me a book and asked my signature. I took the pencil, & wrote my name in it, D. E. Herold. Says he, “What gentleman is that you have with you?” I says, “What name did he tell you?” He answered “Boyd.” I says, “If he told you his name was Boyd, he told you right.” That is the worst thing I have done. I was not at all thinking of the consequences.
One of the soldiers, named Bennington, was going to see a gentleman named Clark, whom I met some three or four years ago, & whom I had heard people in Maryland speak. I do not know Clark’s Christian name. Both Bennington & Clark had belonged to Mosbys’ command. We went there, & Bennington introduced me. This Jett had told the others that my name was not Boyd, & I was introduced by that name. We staid there all night. IN the morning we went to Bowling Green, & there heard that there was some cavalry at Milford. I said to him, “I want to get into the country somewhere”. He offered to carry me behind his horse. I got up behind him, sitting on Bennington’s coat. Going down the road, he said, “Do you want to go where you came from?” I said “No, I am not at all anxious to do so. But the gentleman the Captain left there yesterday will be anxious for me to come back, and I am almost afraid to stay away from him.” I went back, & got there about four o’clock in the afternoon. I mean at Garrett’s, where Booth was. I got there the day the cavalry came down, on Monday afternoon, at about three or four o’clock. In the mean time another one of Mosby’s men had come up, and was in company with us. I got off from the horse at Garrett’s gate. When I got within 50 yards of the house, Booth came out to meet me, and carried me to the house. I said, “What do you intend to do?” He says, “I intend to stay here all night.” I says, “I would like to go home. I am sick and tired of this way of living.” He went and introduced me as a friend. I said to Mr. Garrett, “Can I stay here all night?” He said, “I don’t know, when father comes I will give you a definite answer.” About that time some persons came riding up the road, and in came two of Mosby’s men, & said, “Marylanders, you had better watch out. There are 40 Yankee cavalry coming up the hill.” At that Booth sent upstairs for his pistol, and went into the woods. He begged me to come. I picked up the rifle and went with him I left him with the rifle in the woods, and went up to Garrett’s house. I was willing that they should take me. The cavalry went past the house, and old Mr. Garretts says, “You had better go down and tell Mr. Boyd to come up & get his supper.” It was then a little after dark. I called him, he come out of the woods, and I brought the rifle. He said he was very anxious to get away, and asked Mr. Garrett which would be the nearest way to go to Orange Court House. Mr. Garrett described some place ten miles south of Fredericksburg, and said, “If you will give me $6 I will carry you to the place. I forget the name.
That night Garrett went across to a negro’s living about half a mile distant. He said, “I judge from what I can hear, that these gentlemen are after you.” I says, “I don’t think they are.” Garrett says, “I would sooner that you would not stay here all night.” I said “All right. We would sooner not stay here.” Booth had told them that he had shot one or two soldiers in Maryland, and asked them to warn him if the Yankees should come, so that he could escape. It was then after dark. We didn’t know where to go. Garrett says, “I don’t want you to stay in the house.” Booth asked if he could stay in the barn. Garrett said “Yes.” We went down & were locked in the barn. Just before daylight, Booth waked me up, & said that the cavalry has surrounded the barn. I said “You had better give up.” He said, “I will suffer death first.” Mr. Garrett came, and said “Gentlemen, the cavalry are after you. You are the ones. You better give yourselves up.” I am confident that he didn’t reply to Mr. Garrett, but laid still. I moved about in the straw. I didn’t try to conceal myself at all. Booth say, “Don’t make any noise. May be they will go off, thinking we are not here.” He had hardly got the words out of his mouth when the Captain of the party says, “I want you to surrender. If you don’t, I will burn the barn down in fifteen minutes.” Booth then asked who he was and what he was after. The Captain said he was after him, and wanted him. They passed several words, which I don’t remember exactly; but the amount of it was, he wanted him to come out and give himself up, and before he come out Mr. Garrett was to come in and Booth was to give up his arms to him. I had no weapons at all, only a penknife, I had not even an overcoat. I was dressed as I am now, except this vest I traded my vest, which I tore in getting over a fence, for this one. I traded it with a soldier, whose name I don’t know, on the road in Virginia.
The Captain called upon Booth a second time to surrender, and told him there were only ten minutes left. Booth got up and wanted to know the officer’s authority. I told him, “You don’t choose to give yourself up, let me go out and give myself up.” He says, “No, you shall not do it.” He spoke low to me and I to him. I begged him to let me go out. The officers and the cavalrymen will tell you the same thing. I started for the door once, when he threatened to shoot me and blow his own brains out. The Captain then said only five minutes more were left, and the barn would be burnt down. I said, “I am going; I don’t intend to be burnt alive.” I went to the door & knocked. Booth says “Let him out, that young man is innocent.” The Captain then said to me, “Whoever you are, come out with your hands up.” I did so He took my glove and a piece of a map; that was all I had. The officer says, “Come stand up by the house.” He caught me by the collar, and as I turned around I heard a pistol shot, looked around, and saw one corner of the barn in a light blaze. They jerked the barn door open. Booth was lying there. He tried to say “Mother”, or something of that kind. He said to me, in a low whisper, “When you go out, don’t tell them the arms I have.” He had two revolvers, a bowie knife, and a Spencer rifle. The officers knew what he had. Mr. Garrett told them. There were also some cartridges. Booth told the officer that he would not surrender. He told him to open the door, and draw his men up at fifty yards’ distance, and he would fight them all, but would not come out.

A Spencer carbine, a bowie-knife, two revolvers, belt and pouch, were here shown to Herold, and recognized by him as those carried by Booth. Harold said he did not know where Booth obtained the pistols and knife; that he did not notice them until Saturday evening; and that Booth told him that he had bought the rifle in New York.

Question. Did he tell you who these 35 men in Washington, or any of them, were?

Answer. He did not. He mentioned one or two names. I recollect – the name of Ed. Henson or Hanson. He said five men ought to have met him. He also mentioned the of (pausing to think) – I don’t know. He said that there was a letter he wrote, and they all signed their names to it – I mean the five – giving their reasons for doing such & such things. He told me this the day before we crossed into Virginia.

Question. What was the letter about?

Answer. I don’t know.

Question. What did he say he did with the letter?

Answer. He left it behind, I believe.

Question. Where?

Answer. I don’t know. He said it would be published. He must have sent it through the post office. I don’t know to whom it was sent. He said it would be in the “Intelligencer”.

Question. Can you remember the names of any other parties?

Answer. No, sir.

Question. Did you know Surratt?

Answer. I have known him eight or nine years. I saw him about one month ago. I was in Kloman’s restaurant, with four or five young men from the Navy Yard – we were all drinking ale. A friend of mine from the country, Walter Griffin, came in, & invited me & some of the party to drink. I think I introduced the whole party to him. Mr. Griffin & myself stood & talked, he invited the whole party of us to come to his fishing shore in Prince Georges’. In a joking way he said, “Bring your own whiskey, we don’t have any there.” While we were standing talking, JohnSt (This appears to be a writing error) Surratt came in, and took a glass of ale, and said he was going to Wilson’s, on the avenue. Griffin, John Surratt, & myself went together to Wilson’s. I believe he ordered some groceries from Wilson. We left Griffin at the door. He was going to the circus, & wanted us to go too. I declined, & and went to the barber shop with Surratt, who got shaved & had his hair dressed. When we came out of the barber ship, which is four or five doors above Kloman’s, we parted, & that was the last I saw of him.

Question. Who were these young men from the Navy Yard?

Answer. Forest Queen, a clerk with Mr. Stanton, Charles Carroll, Thom. Manning, & myself.

Question. Where did Surratt live?

Answer. With his mother, on H st. one door from Sixth, Washington.

Question. Where does Walter Griffin live?

Answer. In Prince George’s. He is a Marylander, and is now fishing at Bryan’s Point.

Several photographs were then shown to Herold, as follows:
Photograph marked 1.-
Herold – That’s John H. Surratt, the gentleman I just spoke of.
Photograph marked 2.- Not recognized.
Photograph marked 3.-
Herold – I have seen that an in Baltimore. His name is Locklin, Laughlin, or McLaughlin. I have seen him in Washington, but don’t remember how long since. I was introduced to him by Atzerodt. I think I was two or three months ago, at Ruhlman’s drinking shop, three or four doors west of Jackson Hall.


Question. Where did Atzerodt say this man came from?

Answer. Baltimore, I think.

Question. Did he say what he was doing here?

Answer. No, I don’t remember that he said. We were there only a few minutes.

Photograph marked 4.
Herold. I don’t know him. [After a pause.] Yes, I have seen him, at Ford’s Theatre. He was the stage carpenter there, I think. Mr. Booth has a horse up at the back of Ford’s Theatre, and he loaned him to me. This carpenter & a boy up there attended to the horse.

Question. Was that the horse he rode through Maryland?

Answer. No, that horse was a big sorrel horse, I don’t know where it is now. The one he rode down Maryland was a bay mare.

Question. When did Booth have this horse back of the theatre?

Answer. Two months ago.

Question. How lately did he have him there?

Answer. I don’t know.

Photograph marked 5.
Question. Who is that?

Answer. Why, it’s old “Plug Tobacco” – G. A. Atzerodt, from Port Tobacco. I rode his horse Friday night – the same night the President was murdered.

Question. When did he bring that horse to town?

Answer. That I don’t know.

Question. Did he tell you that evening to ride him?

Answer. I asked him to ride him. That evening he went to sell the horse to Shreve. Howard was going to buy him, but kind of doubted the horse.

Question. Whereabout that evening did you meet Atzerodt when you asked him to let you ride the horse?

Answer. We both came up Seventh st. together. It was about four or five o’clock. Mr. Howard, Mr. Shreve, & a man that used to drive the Port Tobacco stage some two years ago – some four or five of us, went in a ten-pin ally above Shreve’s, and I treated. I asked Atzerodt to loan me his horse. I told him I would buy him.

Question. Did you see Atzerodt have any weapons that afternoon?

Answer. I did not.

Question. How long have you known Atzerodt?

Answer. A long time. We went together down the country. I hadn’t seen him until the night we went to the theatre – one rainy night, about two months ago. I met him on the avenue, and staid with him all night at the Pennsylvania House. I staid there two or three times at night. The book-keeper can tell you when, as he charged extra, and I took two or three meals with Atzerodt.

Question. Did Surratt tell you that he was going away?

Answer. I don’t know.

Question. Do you know whether he went away or not?

Answer. He did tell me he intended to go away next morning. He told me the Saturday night we were in Kloman’s. It was before the first of the month. I have not seen any thing of him since. He didn’t say where he was going. He said he was going away next morning early, in the cars.

Photograph marked 6
Herold. I don’t know him. I never saw him.
Photograph marked 7.
Herold. I am confident I never saw him.
Photograph marked 8.
Herold. I don’t know who that is.
Photograph marked 9.
Herold. I don’t know him.

Question. Did you see the carpenter the Friday before you left town?

Answer. I have not seen that carpenter for I believe six weeks. I will tell you what Booth did say. He said there was a man at the theatre that held his horse that he was quite sorry for.

Question. Did he say what man it was?

Answer. He did say his name, and if I were to hear it, I would know it. Booth said it might get him into difficulty.

Question. What kind of clothes did Atzerodt have on when you saw him that Friday evening.

Answer. I don’t remember. As near as I can describe, he wore a black slouch hat, with a tolerably broad band upon it. The hat in picture 5 resembles the hat he had on that afternoon. I am confident – as to the black slouch hat. He used to wear a kind of black pantaloons – a kind of a zig-zag white. I don’t know whether he had those on that Friday evening. I don’t believe he had but one pair of pants that evening when he came up from the country.

Question. What kind of coat did he wear?

Answer. The suit was all alike. – It was a sack coat, I think.
When I started from Shreve’s stable I went directly down Seventh st. I took the horse from the stable about four o’clock. Shreve, Howard, & those gentlemen can tell you. I rode one or two squares around the city, but where I don’t remember. I rode finally to my mother’s house. I was there at six o’clock, just at the bell ring. I gave my horse to a small boy to hold, for which I gave him a ten cent note and a five cent note. I don’t remember how long I staid at mother’s house – not more than 10 minutes. My sister asked me where I was going? I said I was going on a bust, or made some such foolish remark. I then went immediately out of towns, & before sundown I was on Good Hope Still.

Question. Did you not drink that evening in town with Booth?

Answer. I did not. I did not see Booth that evening.

Question. At what time did you get to Lloyd’s?

Answer. I don’t remember. I didn’t stay there but a few minutes, & then started back. I thought it was not worth while to go down there [to Judge Parker’s.] Lloyd was about to go to bed when I got there. It is good ten miles. I went slowly.

Question.` Is there any other statement in regard to your conduct or your connection with this matter, or in regard to the conduct or connection of any body else with the murder of the President or the attempted murder of Mr. Seward, that you wish to make?

Answer. I don’t know of any. I had no idea that there was any such thing in view, by any party, at all. I knew nothing at all of it. I never knew any party in existence that had the slightest idea of injuring the President or any of the Cabinet.

Question. At what place did you first meet Booth that night?

Answer. Right at the foot of Soper’s Hill, between 7 and 8 miles from Washington.

Question. At what time?

Answer. At half past eleven o’clock that night. I was on my return to Washington.

Question. What was said between you when you parted Saturday morning?

Answer. I asked him how long he intended to remain in the country? If I am not mistaken, he said two or three days, when he was going back. He endeavored to prevail upon me to stop with him, and offered to defray expenses. I told him I could not; and then I parted from him. I said to hm, “I will be through Bryantown again this afternoon.” He was on his horse, standing near a tree – a locust tree, I think – when I saw him in the afternoon, at the fork of the road, just above Bryantown. When I threatened to leave him, he says, “No you don’t; you don’t go.” I says, “Why do you insist upon my stopping with you. There is something wrong.” He then told me he had murdered the President. He said he walked in the back part of the box, with a small Derringer pistol. There was a soldier or officer trying to prevent him from going into the box, & the thought struck him to draw a letter from his pocket - & show it to the man, which he did. The man let him pass. He was so agitated at the time, that he fastened the door, he thinks. He advanced toward the President, with the letter in one hand and the pistol in the other. He put the pistol to the back of the President’s head, shoved it, and hollered “Sic Semper tyrannis.” He says it was the President’ secretary that caught him by the throat.

Question. What did he say he did then?

Answer. That he struck him in the stomach or belly with a knife. He said that was the knife (pointing (?) to the one which had been shown to the prisoner.) He said so three or four days ago. He didn’t say where he got the knife or pistols.

Question. How did he say he had the door secured behind him when he got into the President’s box?

Answer. He says he thinks he fastened the door of the box.

Question. Did he say he fastened it with a board or bar?

Answer. No, sir.

Question. Did he say how he fastened the door?

Answer. No, sir. He said he wished that Seward had been killed, but was sorry, from the bottom of his heart, about his sons.

Question. How much money did you take with you?

Answer. I don’t remember how much I had.

Question. About how much had you?

Answer. I don’t believe I had more than $10 or $12.

Question. Where did you get it?

Answer. I worked for it.

Question. Do you know what money, if any, Booth had?

Answer. Yes, sir; I heard him say the night before he was taken that his money was getting short. He says, “I have a one hundred dollar note and sixty dollars in gold.” He says “I will divide this money with you in the morning.” I said, “I don’t want any of your money.” He said he had a diamond pin of which said he would make me a present and I told him I would take it. He never saw morning

Question. Did he say any thing about having drafts on banks or any thing of that kind?

Answer. No, sir. In regard to the door of the President’s box, he told me he intended to fasten it, but didn’t tell me how. Booth asked me four or five weeks ago if I would like to go into an enterprise to make money. I told him I had a clerkship, which I intended to accept. He was standing on the National Hotel porch where we had been taking a glass of ale.

[RJNorton]

Thanks, Clarence. I think it's hard to pin down all of Herold's whereabouts on the day of the assassination. He says he wasn't even in Washington when Booth assassinated the President. As far as I can tell only two people from the conspiracy trial testified they saw Herold in Washington on April 14th. These men were John Fletcher and Silas Cobb. Can anyone think of other eyewitness accounts of Herold's activities in Washington on April 14th?

[AussieMick]

John Fazio ( https://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussi...#pid49738) is convinced that Herold was the messenger who went to Julia Grant and tried to tell her that the Lincolns would be expecting her and the General to go to the theatre on April 14.

[Steve]

(04-27-2022 11:20 PM)AussieMick Wrote:  John Fazio ( https://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussi...#pid49738) is convinced that Herold was the messenger who went to Julia Grant and tried to tell her that the Lincolns would be expecting her and the General to go to the theatre on April 14.

That's a really interesting idea, Mick (and John)! Really interesting. One counterargument against that notion might be Julia not identifying the messenger as Herold, especially in the days immediately following the assassination with Herold and the other conspirators' photos.

Reading the thread Mick linked to just gave me a thought. Does anybody think it's possible that John Surratt was in New Jersey on the night of the 14th, instead of Elmira? Stalking Grant for a possible attack that night around the right time? But then concluding it wasn't feasible and then heading to Canada?

[RJNorton]

(04-28-2022 06:19 AM)Steve Wrote:  

(04-27-2022 11:20 PM)AussieMick Wrote:  John Fazio ( https://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussi...#pid49738) is convinced that Herold was the messenger who went to Julia Grant and tried to tell her that the Lincolns would be expecting her and the General to go to the theatre on April 14.

That's a really interesting idea, Mick (and John)! Really interesting. One counterargument against that notion might be Julia not identifying the messenger as Herold, especially in the days immediately following the assassination with Herold and the other conspirators' photos.

Reading the thread Mick linked to just gave me a thought. Does anybody think it's possible that John Surratt was in New Jersey on the night of the 14th, instead of Elmira? Stalking Grant for a possible attack that night around the right time? But then concluding it wasn't feasible and then heading to Canada?

In his book John Fazio briefly explores the idea that Surratt may have been on the Grants' train with the intention of assassinating the general. A day or two after Lincoln's assassination Grant received the following note:

“General Grant, thank God, as I do, that you still live. It was your life that fell to my lot and I followed you on the cars. Your car door was locked and thus you escaped me, thank God!”

In the book John discounts the possibility that this note came from John Surratt as "he was too much of a cold-blooded killer to express regret for failure." (p. 259)

[Steve]

Here's Grant's account from his memoir:

While in Washington I was very busy for a time in preparing the necessary orders for the new state of affairs; communicating with my different commanders of separate departments, bodies of troops, etc. But by the 14th I was pretty well through with this work, so as to be able to visit my children, who were then in Burlington, New Jersey, attending school. Mrs. Grant was with me in Washington at the time, and we were invited by President and Mrs. Lincoln to accompany them to the theatre on the evening of that day. I replied to the President's verbal invitation to the effect, that if we were in the city we would take great pleasure in accompanying them; but that I was very anxious to get away and visit my children, and if I could get through my work during the day I should do so. I did get through and started by the evening train on the 14th, sending Mr. Lincoln word, of course, that I would not be at the theatre.

At that time the railroad to New York entered Philadelphia on Broad Street; passengers were conveyed in ambulances to the Delaware River, and then ferried to Camden, at which point they took the cars again. When I reached the ferry, on the east side of the City of Philadelphia, I found people awaiting my arrival there; and also despatches informing me of the assassination of the President and Mr. Seward, and of the probable assassination of the Vice-President, Mr. Johnson, and requesting my immediate return.

It would be impossible for me to describe the feeling that overcame me at the news of these assassinations, more especially the assassination of the President. I knew his goodness of heart, his generosity, his yielding disposition, his desire to have everybody happy, and above all his desire to see all the people of the United States enter again upon the full privileges of citizenship with equality among all. I knew also the feeling that Mr. Johnson had expressed in speeches and conversation against the Southern people, and I feared that his course towards them would be such as to repel, and make them unwilling citizens; and if they became such they would remain so for a long while. I felt that reconstruction had been set back, no telling how far.

I immediately arranged for getting a train to take me back to Washington City; but Mrs. Grant was with me; it was after midnight and Burlington was but an hour away. Finding that I could accompany her to our house and return about as soon as they would be ready to take me from the Philadelphia station, I went up with her and returned immediately by the same special train. The joy that I had witnessed among the people in the street and in public places in Washington when I left there, had been turned to grief; the city was in reality a city of mourning. I have stated what I believed then the effect of this would be, and my judgment now is that I was right. I believe the people of the South would have been spared very much of the hard feeling that was engendered by Mr. Johnson's course towards them during the first few months of his administration. Be this as it may, Mr. Lincoln's assassination was particularly unfortunate for the entire nation.

[RJNorton]

Many thanks to Steve for sending this information. Steve writes, "I have something to post to the Forum. It's the pages from Julia Grant's memoirs regarding the Lincoln assassination. I agree the men watching her at the luncheon and who followed the Grants' coach to the train station were probably the conspirators and there's a good chance the messenger earlier in the day could've been Herold or another, unknown, conspirator. However, I don't see how it's possible the creepy letter she received so soon afterward could've been mailed from one of the conspirators and arrive so quickly. It's definitely more likely a crank or a local (Burlington NJ area) Confederate supporter trying to scare the Grants."

[Dennis Urban]

(04-28-2022 09:00 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(04-28-2022 06:19 AM)Steve Wrote:  

(04-27-2022 11:20 PM)AussieMick Wrote:  John Fazio ( https://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussi...#pid49738) is convinced that Herold was the messenger who went to Julia Grant and tried to tell her that the Lincolns would be expecting her and the General to go to the theatre on April 14.

That's a really interesting idea, Mick (and John)! Really interesting. One counterargument against that notion might be Julia not identifying the messenger as Herold, especially in the days immediately following the assassination with Herold and the other conspirators' photos.

Reading the thread Mick linked to just gave me a thought. Does anybody think it's possible that John Surratt was in New Jersey on the night of the 14th, instead of Elmira? Stalking Grant for a possible attack that night around the right time? But then concluding it wasn't feasible and then heading to Canada?

In his book John Fazio briefly explores the idea that Surratt may have been on the Grants' train with the intention of assassinating the general. A day or two after Lincoln's assassination Grant received the following note:

“General Grant, thank God, as I do, that you still live. It was your life that fell to my lot and I followed you on the cars. Your car door was locked and thus you escaped me, thank God!”

In the book John discounts the possibility that this note came from John Surratt as "he was too much of a cold-blooded killer to express regret for failure." (p. 259)

Whoa, wait a minute. John Surratt may have been many things but there is no evidence that he was a "cold-blooded killer." I've never seen it written that he killed anyone or contemplated doing so. He may not have known of Booth's change from kidnapping to killing. I am not a John Surratt defender, just noting that he was no killer. Coward, yes. His testimony at the conspiracy trial could have saved his mother, but would likely have hung him. I don't understand how he could live with that.

[RJNorton]

Dennis, I wondered about that, too. I am guessing it was a reference to Dr. Lewis McMillan's testimony at the John Surratt trial in 1867. McMillan had been aboard the ship that took Surratt to Liverpool in September 1865. McMillan testified that Surratt told him that he and a female cohort (probably Sarah Slater) had shot five or six Union soldiers. Surratt apparently told McMillan that the woman said, "Let's shoot the damned Yankees," and they did so.

See the paragraph that starts with "I remember of Surratt telling me" here:

https://courier-journal.newspapers.com/c...4-02-july/

Maybe John Fazio will see this thread and chime in.

[Steve]

Dennis, I don't think Surratt's actions regarding his mother can be considered cowardly. There was literally nothing he could have done, short of becoming a government witness, which could have saved her. If he had turned himself in he would have been unable to provide testimony on her behalf as a fellow defendant.

In regards to McMillan, I think we should be wary of his testimony. We don't know enough about his biography and character to get a gauge on his truthfulness. His testimony comes off as perhaps a little too good to be true. But then again a lot of criminals do like to blab exactly like this.

I do think his willingness to participate in the kidnapping scheme cooked up by Booth definitely makes him a potential killer. The only realistic way the plans to kidnap Lincoln could've worked is the ability to kill obstacles (ie people) if they got in the way

[RJNorton]

(04-29-2022 01:27 PM)Steve Wrote:  In regards to McMillan, I think we should be wary of his testimony. We don't know enough about his biography and character to get a gauge on his truthfulness. His testimony comes off as perhaps a little too good to be true. But then again a lot of criminals do like to blab exactly like this.

Good point, Steve. Author Andy Jampoler (The Last Lincoln Conspirator: John Surratt's Flight from the Gallows) writes, "Whether or not McMillan later embroidered his shipboard conversations with Surratt to make for a better story would be up to a jury to decide." (p. 75)

[Steve]

Do we know if any of the other Confederates McMillan said Surratt told him were on board were actually on the ship?