New book coming out exploring if Lincoln was gay.

[LincolnMan]

Please see here: https://nypost.com/2019/04/20/new-book-e...y-man/amp/

[LincolnMan]

In reading the article the author references Mr. Tripp’s previous work on the subject and Carl Sandburg’s supposed hint to Lincoln being gay. What new information could be included?

[Gene C]

From the article linked to....

"What research did you do? I learned as much as I can about these guys, and the book is a promiscuous mixture of fact and invention. The book that was helpful was “The Intimate World of Abraham Lincoln” by C.A. Tripp."

I won't be adding this one, or Tripp's to my bookshelf
Thanks for the info Bill.

[RJNorton]

(04-21-2019 05:32 AM)LincolnMan Wrote:  What new information could be included?

Perhaps not new to everyone, but I recently read something that was new to me. I always thought Lincoln and Speed shared the same bed in the room above Speed's store because that was the only bed up there. But I am pretty sure I (of late) read that there was another bed, yet Speed and Lincoln didn't use it. Am I imagining this or has anyone else read the bed the two men shared was not the only bed in the attic? I cannot remember where I read that there was a second bed.

I would think that if there were another bed up there it would likely give more ammunition to those folks who believe Lincoln was not straight.

[LincolnMan]

(04-21-2019 07:04 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(04-21-2019 05:32 AM)LincolnMan Wrote:  What new information could be included?

Perhaps not new to everyone, but I recently read something that was new to me. I always thought Lincoln and Speed shared the same bed in the room above Speed's store because that was the only bed up there. But I am pretty sure I (of late) read that there was another bed, yet Speed and Lincoln didn't use it. Am I imagining this or has anyone else read the bed the two men shared was not the only bed in the attic? I cannot remember where I read that there was a second bed.

I would think that if there were another bed up there it would likely give more ammunition to those folks who believe Lincoln was not straight.

Hmm... Nope- I don’t remember any reference to there being two beds. Interesting.

[Susan Higginbotham]

It's a novel, not a factual exploration of Lincoln's sexuality. In another piece by the author, he writes that the book takes "no definitive stand on its subject’s sexuality."

[Anita]

(04-21-2019 07:04 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(04-21-2019 05:32 AM)LincolnMan Wrote:  What new information could be included?

Perhaps not new to everyone, but I recently read something that was new to me. I always thought Lincoln and Speed shared the same bed in the room above Speed's store because that was the only bed up there. But I am pretty sure I (of late) read that there was another bed, yet Speed and Lincoln didn't use it. Am I imagining this or has anyone else read the bed the two men shared was not the only bed in the attic? I cannot remember where I read that there was a second bed.

I would think that if there were another bed up there it would likely give more ammunition to those folks who believe Lincoln was not straight.

I recall reading that there was another area in the loft but Speed told Lincoln to share his room being that it was large and had a double bed. If there was a scond bed I imagine a cot or something far less comfortable and too short. I am still searching for the source.

[L Verge]

(04-21-2019 12:23 PM)Anita Wrote:  

(04-21-2019 07:04 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(04-21-2019 05:32 AM)LincolnMan Wrote:  What new information could be included?

Perhaps not new to everyone, but I recently read something that was new to me. I always thought Lincoln and Speed shared the same bed in the room above Speed's store because that was the only bed up there. But I am pretty sure I (of late) read that there was another bed, yet Speed and Lincoln didn't use it. Am I imagining this or has anyone else read the bed the two men shared was not the only bed in the attic? I cannot remember where I read that there was a second bed.

I would think that if there were another bed up there it would likely give more ammunition to those folks who believe Lincoln was not straight.

I recall reading that there was another area in the loft but Speed told Lincoln to share his room being that it was large and had a double bed. If there was a scond bed I imagine a cot or something far less comfortable and too short. I am still searching for the source.

Have any of the authors who are attempting to find new things to say about Lincoln considered the fact most bedrooms in the colder climes of the U.S. were very cold places from probably mid-September to early-June? Some regular bedrooms may have had fireplaces, but fires were allowed to die down while one was sleeping. Surratt House shows a soap stone bed warmer that was kept on the hearth during the day and used to warm the sheets before one hopped in bed.

Bedrooms that did not have fireplaces may have had flue covers in chimneys that ran up through that room. Covers could be removed for the flow of heat from below. (Some of the covers were beautiful art and are collectibles today.) My family's home place had such a system -- three fireplaces downstairs, so three of the five bedrooms had a flue going up to the three chimneys. When I was young, we depended on coal-burning stoves in the three downstairs rooms, so heat was still transmitted upwards to the bedrooms. No furnace heat until the 1950s. https://www.ebay.com/b/Collectible-Flue-...bn_2311596

My point is that Lincoln and his bed fellows may have just been seeking warmth on cold nights in the Midwest. And, no, I can't explain reasons for sleeping together on warm nights (such as the tales about the Summer White House), but is just plain companionship and someone to talk to ever considered?

[Rob Wick]

When Lewis Gannett and I were arguing back and forth over Tripp's book, I asked why Tripp or he didn't mention looking through either Sandburg's or Ida Tarbell's papers for more details or private letters that detailed their supposed belief that Lincoln had homosexual tendencies (Tripp mentioned Tarbell as having evidence, which at the time I didn't know was her interview with C.M. Derickson). Lewis never answered my question. The obvious reason is that neither man did. I also asked why Sandburg's reference to "streaks of lavender" wasn't mentioned as "code" for homosexuality until 1935 or 1936 given that Sandburg published Abraham Lincoln: The Prairie Years in 1926 and "streaks of lavender" wasn't prevalent until the 1950s and 1960s. Again, he declined to answer.

Just one note. If reliable evidence could be produced to show that Tripp's theory could be proven or at least given more credibility, we, as students of Lincoln, would have to accept it. It isn't enough to want Lincoln not to be gay (even though that concept in its modern understanding did not exist in Lincoln's time...homosexuality certainly did, but "being gay" did not). As to that end, not being willing to read Tripp's book seems to me too close-minded. Admittedly, my copy is marked up with plenty of things that were pure hogwash, but I would have never discovered that had I not read it. Plus, it's not really fair to the author to criticize something one hasn't read. Just my opinion.

Best
Rob

[Gene C]

Thank you for reading it, sharing you impression of it, so I don't have to read it.

There are plenty of other "good" books on Lincoln to read.
Too many writers and media producers trying to cash in on Lincoln's reputation (and historical events in general) by trying to sensationalize the story with events that never happened, theories that have little to no basis in fact and misleading information, all in an effort to gain personal recognition and money.

[Rob Wick]

Gene,

All I'm saying is that the essence of scholarship is that one maintain an open mind combined with a healthy dose of skepticism. When Lewis and I first started our discussion, I hadn't read the book. As I went on, I felt it unfair to criticize it based (as I freely admit I did) on both Gannett and Tripp's being gay as well and wanting Lincoln to be. That said far more about me than it did about the book. Therefore, I bought a copy (used, since it was out of print) and read it. Not only did I feel confident in my original reaction, but I then had evidence and factual analysis to back it up. No one can force another to do something they don't want to do, and I accept your decision not to read it, but I respectfully disagree with it.

Best
Rob

[LincolnMan]

(04-21-2019 10:25 PM)Rob Wick Wrote:  When Lewis Gannett and I were arguing back and forth over Tripp's book, I asked why Tripp or he didn't mention looking through either Sandburg's or Ida Tarbell's papers for more details or private letters that detailed their supposed belief that Lincoln had homosexual tendencies (Tripp mentioned Tarbell as having evidence, which at the time I didn't know was her interview with C.M. Derickson). Lewis never answered my question. The obvious reason is that neither man did. I also asked why Sandburg's reference to "streaks of lavender" wasn't mentioned as "code" for homosexuality until 1935 or 1936 given that Sandburg published Abraham Lincoln: The Prairie Years in 1926 and "streaks of lavender" wasn't prevalent until the 1950s and 1960s. Again, he declined to answer.

Just one note. If reliable evidence could be produced to show that Tripp's theory could be proven or at least given more credibility, we, as students of Lincoln, would have to accept it. It isn't enough to want Lincoln not to be gay (even though that concept in its modern understanding did not exist in Lincoln's time...homosexuality certainly did, but "being gay" did not). As to that end, not being willing to read Tripp's book seems to me too close-minded. Admittedly, my copy is marked up with plenty of things that were pure hogwash, but I would have never discovered that had I not read it. Plus, it's not really fair to the author to criticize something one hasn't read. Just my opinion.

Best
Rob

Great reply. Any thoughts on what Sandburg might have been by his comment then?

[Gene C]

(04-22-2019 10:48 AM)Rob Wick Wrote:  Gene,

....., and I accept your decision not to read it, but I respectfully disagree with it.

Best
Rob

Well OK, since you are being respectful -

[Rob Wick]

Quote:Well OK, as long as you're respectful

Only for you, Gene. After all, you and Joy introduced me to the only onion rings that I don't find disgusting.

Quote:Any thoughts on what Sandburg might have been by his comment then?

Bill,

Anything I could come up with would be pure speculation on my part. When I was going through Sandburg's papers, I tried to keep an eye open for any references to Lincoln and Speed, but the main thing I was looking for was in regards to Sandburg's friendship with James G. Randall. After all, there were 26 boxes of research material on Abraham Lincoln: The Prairie Years alone.

To me, Sandburg was a poet, and wrote like a poet. His poetry (and his prose) was sometimes overwrought when he was trying to make a point, especially compared to our standards today. It's possible that Sandburg was sending a coded message to his readers, although I would argue its just as likely he was suggesting that two men of the wild prairie were able to overcome their roughness and rude background and develop a friendship that was full of kindness and tenderness. Given the notion that Lincoln was very difficult to know fully (a point pregnant in Sandburg's oeuvre on Lincoln), that kind of friendship would have been extraordinary indeed.

Anyone who would want to do serious research on this would also need to look at Sandburg's poetry for references to lavender. Given his ties to the Chicago arts scene of the late teens and early 20s, there can be no doubt that Sandburg was familiar with homosexuality and knew several. Penelope Niven even makes a reference to Sandburg's encounter while riding the rails of being propositioned by a bum he referred to as the "Noo Yawkah." "Charlie stayed away from the Noo Yawkah after he made a homosexual advance, and quickly became astute in judging his compatriots in hobo jungles from Iowa to Colorado." (Penelope Niven, Carl Sandburg: A Biography, 35).

For it to be sustained that Sandburg was talking about Lincoln and Speed engaging in homosexual behavior, one would have to search through Sandburg's papers and correspondence to find evidence, something neither Tripp nor Gannett did. In looking through Tarbell's papers, I only found one reference to homosexuality when Tarbell referred to a professor at a woman's college who was accused of lesbianism as being accused of "deviance." Now, there is some suggestion that Tarbell and her sister, Sarah, destroyed many of her personal letters before Tarbell's death in 1944. I tend to believe this, given that most of the letters in Tarbell's extant papers deal with business and writing. The only personal letters of any merit that I've read don't exist in Tarbell's papers, but rather in the papers of Ada Pierce McCormick, who knew Tarbell in her later years. The letters are those written by Tarbell to her family while she was in Paris in the 1890s. Interestingly, none of the letters sent to Tarbell survive. Where McCormick got the letters isn't clear from the finding aid to her papers, but it is very clear that they do not exist in Tarbell's papers at Allegheny College. McCormick had planned to write a biography of Tarbell, which never materialized.

Best
Rob

[Gene C]

the interesting things you can learn on this forum.
I guess I won't be borrowing the wife's new lavender scented shampoo anymore.