New book coming out exploring if Lincoln was gay.

[RJNorton]

From what I can tell the rumors regarding Lincoln at New Salem involved women, not men. In fact there seemed to be rumors of Lincoln conceivably fathering two children while living in New Salem.

https://books.google.com/books?id=BkA6Uc...22&f=false

[L Verge]

For an interesting "history" of the use of the word "lavender" in describing social culture, sexuality, etc. go here https://lgbt.wikia.org/wiki/Lavender_(color) It appears to be very much a 20th-century term -- just like "racism," which I fuss with people when they use it to describe culture of the 1800s and before. BTW: This article will tell you that the color "mauve" was used more to describe homosexual tendencies in the 19th century.

[ELCore]

(04-21-2019 12:52 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Have any of the authors who are attempting to find new things to say about Lincoln considered the fact most bedrooms in the colder climes of the U.S. were very cold places from probably mid-September to early-June?

My mother grew up a few miles from where we live now, in southwestern Pennsylvania. Born in 1936, she still remembers how on winter mornings she would have to break the ice on the basin of water in her bedroom so she could wash her face right after getting up.

[LincolnMan]

(04-22-2019 02:06 PM)Rob Wick Wrote:  

Quote:Well OK, as long as you're respectful

Only for you, Gene. After all, you and Joy introduced me to the only onion rings that I don't find disgusting.

Quote:Any thoughts on what Sandburg might have been by his comment then?

Bill,

Anything I could come up with would be pure speculation on my part. When I was going through Sandburg's papers, I tried to keep an eye open for any references to Lincoln and Speed, but the main thing I was looking for was in regards to Sandburg's friendship with James G. Randall. After all, there were 26 boxes of research material on Abraham Lincoln: The Prairie Years alone.

To me, Sandburg was a poet, and wrote like a poet. His poetry (and his prose) was sometimes overwrought when he was trying to make a point, especially compared to our standards today. It's possible that Sandburg was sending a coded message to his readers, although I would argue its just as likely he was suggesting that two men of the wild prairie were able to overcome their roughness and rude background and develop a friendship that was full of kindness and tenderness. Given the notion that Lincoln was very difficult to know fully (a point pregnant in Sandburg's oeuvre on Lincoln), that kind of friendship would have been extraordinary indeed.

Anyone who would want to do serious research on this would also need to look at Sandburg's poetry for references to lavender. Given his ties to the Chicago arts scene of the late teens and early 20s, there can be no doubt that Sandburg was familiar with homosexuality and knew several. Penelope Niven even makes a reference to Sandburg's encounter while riding the rails of being propositioned by a bum he referred to as the "Noo Yawkah." "Charlie stayed away from the Noo Yawkah after he made a homosexual advance, and quickly became astute in judging his compatriots in hobo jungles from Iowa to Colorado." (Penelope Niven, Carl Sandburg: A Biography, 35).

For it to be sustained that Sandburg was talking about Lincoln and Speed engaging in homosexual behavior, one would have to search through Sandburg's papers and correspondence to find evidence, something neither Tripp nor Gannett did. In looking through Tarbell's papers, I only found one reference to homosexuality when Tarbell referred to a professor at a woman's college who was accused of lesbianism as being accused of "deviance." Now, there is some suggestion that Tarbell and her sister, Sarah, destroyed many of her personal letters before Tarbell's death in 1944. I tend to believe this, given that most of the letters in Tarbell's extant papers deal with business and writing. The only personal letters of any merit that I've read don't exist in Tarbell's papers, but rather in the papers of Ada Pierce McCormick, who knew Tarbell in her later years. The letters are those written by Tarbell to her family while she was in Paris in the 1890s. Interestingly, none of the letters sent to Tarbell survive. Where McCormick got the letters isn't clear from the finding aid to her papers, but it is very clear that they do not exist in Tarbell's papers at Allegheny College. McCormick had planned to write a biography of Tarbell, which never materialized.

Best
Rob

Rob:
Thank you for taking the time to thoughtfully provide some background to my question. In my thinking, I don’t know what Sandburg was referencing when he spoke of lavender. I think also that it exceeds sound research and study to conclude that Lincoln was gay. In the end we may never know.

[L Verge]

(04-22-2019 04:16 PM)L Verge Wrote:  For an interesting "history" of the use of the word "lavender" in describing social culture, sexuality, etc. go here https://lgbt.wikia.org/wiki/Lavender_(color) It appears to be very much a 20th-century term -- just like "racism," which I fuss with people when they use it to describe culture of the 1800s and before. BTW: This article will tell you that the color "mauve" was used more to describe homosexual tendencies in the 19th century.

Talk about coincidence. Alan Hunter, who is finishing a biography on Osborn Oldroyd, was doing research at the Surratt Hall Center today, and in a separate conversation we were discussing the attitudes of Robert Lincoln in general. We both agreed that he inherited the Todds' rather snobby genes.

In one story, Alan told about the U.S. visit of the rather flamboyant Oscar Wilde and his invitation to dine with Mrs. Lincoln and Robert and his wife at their home. Oscar was being Oscar from garb to comments, including references to the MAUVE movement. Robert showed his homophobic tendencies by standing up from the table, throwing down his napkin, announcing his dislike of Mr. Wilde to his face and stomping out of the room.

[LincolnMan]

(04-23-2019 06:49 PM)L Verge Wrote:  

(04-22-2019 04:16 PM)L Verge Wrote:  For an interesting "history" of the use of the word "lavender" in describing social culture, sexuality, etc. go here https://lgbt.wikia.org/wiki/Lavender_(color) It appears to be very much a 20th-century term -- just like "racism," which I fuss with people when they use it to describe culture of the 1800s and before. BTW: This article will tell you that the color "mauve" was used more to describe homosexual tendencies in the 19th century.

Talk about coincidence. Alan Hunter, who is finishing a biography on Osborn Oldroyd, was doing research at the Surratt Hall Center today, and in a separate conversation we were discussing the attitudes of Robert Lincoln in general. We both agreed that he inherited the Todds' rather snobby genes.

In one story, Alan told about the U.S. visit of the rather flamboyant Oscar Wilde and his invitation to dine with Mrs. Lincoln and Robert and his wife at their home. Oscar was being Oscar from garb to comments, including references to the MAUVE movement. Robert showed his homophobic tendencies by standing up from the table, throwing down his napkin, announcing his dislike of Mr. Wilde to his face and stomping out of the room.

Great story!

[Eva Elisabeth]

(04-23-2019 06:49 PM)L Verge Wrote:  

(04-22-2019 04:16 PM)L Verge Wrote:  For an interesting "history" of the use of the word "lavender" in describing social culture, sexuality, etc. go here https://lgbt.wikia.org/wiki/Lavender_(color) It appears to be very much a 20th-century term -- just like "racism," which I fuss with people when they use it to describe culture of the 1800s and before. BTW: This article will tell you that the color "mauve" was used more to describe homosexual tendencies in the 19th century.

Talk about coincidence. Alan Hunter, who is finishing a biography on Osborn Oldroyd, was doing research at the Surratt Hall Center today, and in a separate conversation we were discussing the attitudes of Robert Lincoln in general. We both agreed that he inherited the Todds' rather snobby genes.

In one story, Alan told about the U.S. visit of the rather flamboyant Oscar Wilde and his invitation to dine with Mrs. Lincoln and Robert and his wife at their home. Oscar was being Oscar from garb to comments, including references to the MAUVE movement. Robert showed his homophobic tendencies by standing up from the table, throwing down his napkin, announcing his dislike of Mr. Wilde to his face and stomping out of the room.

Wow, I have never heard of that. I admit I love it...I wonder where it comes from?
Obviously Wilde lectured in Springfield in February 1882 but didn't even stay overnight. This was a few month before Mary died, when she stayed at her sister's. I thought she wasn't reconciled with Robert earlier than June (if at all). However Mary TL. I guess would have liked Wilde...
http://oscarwildeinamerica.org/lectures-...field.html

[L Verge]

(04-24-2019 04:18 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  

(04-23-2019 06:49 PM)L Verge Wrote:  

(04-22-2019 04:16 PM)L Verge Wrote:  For an interesting "history" of the use of the word "lavender" in describing social culture, sexuality, etc. go here https://lgbt.wikia.org/wiki/Lavender_(color) It appears to be very much a 20th-century term -- just like "racism," which I fuss with people when they use it to describe culture of the 1800s and before. BTW: This article will tell you that the color "mauve" was used more to describe homosexual tendencies in the 19th century.

Talk about coincidence. Alan Hunter, who is finishing a biography on Osborn Oldroyd, was doing research at the Surratt Hall Center today, and in a separate conversation we were discussing the attitudes of Robert Lincoln in general. We both agreed that he inherited the Todds' rather snobby genes.

In one story, Alan told about the U.S. visit of the rather flamboyant Oscar Wilde and his invitation to dine with Mrs. Lincoln and Robert and his wife at their home. Oscar was being Oscar from garb to comments, including references to the MAUVE movement. Robert showed his homophobic tendencies by standing up from the table, throwing down his napkin, announcing his dislike of Mr. Wilde to his face and stomping out of the room.

Wow, I have never heard of that. I admit I love it...I wonder where it comes from?
Obviously Wilde lectured in Springfield in February 1882 but didn't even stay overnight. This was a few month before Mary died, when she stayed at her sister's. I thought she wasn't reconciled with Robert earlier than June (if at all). However Mary TL. I guess would have liked Wilde...
http://oscarwildeinamerica.org/lectures-...field.html

According to what Alan Hunter said, Mary was enjoying every minute of Oscar's conversation and stories. This evidently made her son even madder. Go here for an article that Alan wrote several years ago about Wilde's travels in America. The last paragraph contains the Lincoln anecdote. If you keep reading down, you will get a sample of Alan's research on Oldroyd. https://alanehunter.com/tag/robert-todd-lincoln/

[Susan Higginbotham]

Is there a contemporary source for this story? I read an account of it on the author's site that had it taking place at Robert's estate of Hildene--which didn't exist at the time of Wilde's visit. And assuming the visit took place at Springfield, Mary Lincoln was in pretty poor shape at the time--I doubt she would have come downstairs even for Oscar Wilde.

I suspect the author is confusing Robert Lincoln with Jefferson Davis. During Wilde's visit to the Davis house, Jefferson Davis excused himself early and later declared that he did not like Wilde. Varina Davis, however, was quite taken with him.

By the way, those who are refusing to read the novel that is the subject of the thread are missing a great read. I started it yesterday and am enjoying it thoroughly.

[L Verge]

(04-24-2019 06:43 PM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote:  Is there a contemporary source for this story? I read an account of it on the author's site that had it taking place at Robert's estate of Hildene--which didn't exist at the time of Wilde's visit. And assuming the visit took place at Springfield, Mary Lincoln was in pretty poor shape at the time--I doubt she would have come downstairs even for Oscar Wilde.

I suspect the author is confusing Robert Lincoln with Jefferson Davis. During Wilde's visit to the Davis house, Jefferson Davis excused himself early and later declared that he did not like Wilde. Varina Davis, however, was quite taken with him.

By the way, those who are refusing to read the novel that is the subject of the thread are missing a great read. I started it yesterday and am enjoying it thoroughly.

I'm ashamed that I did not catch that erroneous mention of the event happening at Hildene, which is an early-20th century masterpiece. Since the sentences above refer to Wilde's visit with the Davises, I'm certain you must be correct that Mr. Hunter confused the subjects of the story. I suspect that Robert Lincoln and Jefferson Davis had very similar dispositions.

[LincolnMan]

Well some time has now passed since this thread was posted. Has anyone read the book? I have not. Just wondering.

[Susan Higginbotham]

I read it ("Courting Mr. Lincoln") and thoroughly enjoyed it. The article that inspired this thread is overblown--the author of the novel, Louis Bayard, doesn't posit that either man was gay. There's the faintest hint of a homoerotic attraction between Lincoln and Speed, but that's as far as it goes. If there's one nonfiction book that seems to have influenced this novel heavily, it's Charles Strozier's "Your Friend Forever, A. Lincoln," not Tripp's.

[LincolnMan]

Thanks Susan. I’m glad about that.

[Amy L.]

I didn't catch that this Thread was about Courting Mr. Lincoln.  I read and very much enjoyed the book. Fought with the truthfulness, and through varifying or debunking - learned more about their lives '40-'42.
(Although I disagree with one opinion I'd read, saying the author did a good job capturing Victorian language and dialog.  I think after hearing Tony Kushner's dialog, no depiction could be more convincing.)