Similarities Between Lincoln and Trump

[RJNorton]

Here are some Abraham Lincoln quotes on labor and work:

"No country can sustain, in idleness, more than a small percentage of its numbers. The great majority must labor at something productive." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, "Address before the Wisconsin State Agricultural Society, Milwaukee, Wisconsin" (September 30, 1859), p. 479.

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." Lincoln's First Annual Message to Congress, December 3, 1861.

"Upon this subject, the habits of our whole species fall into three great classes---useful labour, useless labour and idleness. Of these the first only is meritorious; and to it all the products of labour rightfully belong; but the two latter, while they exist, are heavy pensioners upon the first, robbing it of a large portion of it's just rights. The only remedy for this is to, as far as possible, drive useless labour and idleness out of existence." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume I, "Fragments of a Tariff Discussion" (December 1, 1847), p. 412.

"Work, work, work, is the main thing." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume IV, "Letter To John M. Brockman" (September 25, 1860), p. 121.

"If you intend to go to work there is no better place than right where you are; if you do not intend to go to work, you can not get along anywhere." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume II, "Letter To John D. Johnston" (November 4, 1851), p. 111.

"And, inasmuch [as] most good things are produced by labour, it follows that [all] such things of right belong to those whose labour has produced them. But it has so happened in all ages of the world, that some have laboured, and others have, without labour, enjoyed a large proportion of the fruits. This is wrong, and should not continue. To [secure] to each labourer the whole product of his labour, or as nearly as possible, is a most worthy object of any good government." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume I, "Fragments of a Tariff Discussion" (December 1, 1847), p. 412.

"...the working men are the basis of all governments, for the plain reason that they are the most numerous..." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume IV, "Speech to Germans at Cincinnati, Ohio" (February 12, 1861), p. 202.

"Beavers build houses; but they build them in nowise differently, or better now, than they did, five thousand years ago. Ants, and honey-bees, provide food for winter; but just in the same way they did, when Solomon referred the sluggard to them as patterns of prudence. Man is not the only animal who labors; but he is the only one who improves his workmanship." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume II, "First Lecture on Discoveries and Inventions" (April 6, 1858), p. 437.

"...half finished work generally proves to be labor lost." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume I, "Communication to the People of Sangamon County" (March 9, 1832), p. 5.

"Wanting to work is so rare a merit, that it should be encouraged." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume IV, "Letter to George D. Ramsay" (October 17, 1861), p. 556.

[L Verge]

Oh, man! I don't know where to begin when I'm trying to topple David from his bully pulpit... But, I would like it to be known that, personally, (even though he tends to get my dander up), I do learn some Lincoln things from his sermons (said with respect). However, when he can't make a Lincoln distinction and starts down the liberal path of suggesting things like nuclear war, I shut down.

As for reputable news sources, y'all already know my prejudices against the modern media. Don't lynch me, but I have cut out subscriptions to newspapers and news magazines over the past decade and only occasionally slip onto one of their online sources. It also depends on where one lives as to the news outlets that they prefer. However, to satisfy David's request to cite what I consider reputable sources: The Wall Street Journal (which some of our museum volunteers share with me); The Washington Post (even though I canceled them because some of their editorials kept ticking me off); usually anything run under an Associated Press byline; National Public Radio; occasionally catch BBC postings, and consider them a good source for the European world view of America.

Now, David, take a deep breath - when I really want to know in-depth coverage of an event, political debate, etc., I turn on Fox News! As of January 2018, it is considered the most trusted of the television news stations. CNN is second. I had heard about Fox News several years ago and just went online to Forbes, which verified that Fox still holds the title.

My question now is: Do these news sources get their show of support because conservatives and independents are the most likely to read/view them? Are liberals and millennials depending on social media and gossip more than traditional sources.

Roger - All of those Lincoln quotes strike to the heart of what I consider a major issue in our country today. There are too many citizens who feel the need to complain rather than get up every morning and head to work, or find crime a more lucrative way of support, or who just keep their hands stretched out for the government dole as generations before have. It appears to me that Trump and Lincoln think alike on that matter - when you really dig for the truth and stop worrying about scandals.

[Gene C]

All this talk about reputable news sources reminds me of a song

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtcoILsvgTE

[LincolnMan]

Wow Gene: you went deep to dig up that tune!

[L Verge]

As a sidebar to our discussions on the role of the press in politics (if that's what we're doing), I would like to comment on something that is brought out in the book that I am currently reading. The book is entitled One Nation Under Sex and is the work of co-authors Larry Flynt (remember Hustler magazine?) and the respected Dr. David Eisenbach, who teaches American political history at Columbia University.

And no, I am not a dirty old lady, and the book is not some filthy rag. It is very well-written, loads of cited sources, extesive bibliography, etc. The authors have tastefully (with a touch of humor) discussed how the private affairs of our leaders (and wives) have influenced American history -- from Ben Franklin (now there was a dirty old man!) to Bill Clinton.

However, my reason for posting about this here is that it shows a period when our reporters and journalists turned away from carrying all the dirt about politicians and their scandals and decided that it was best to be discreet for the sake of our country. While Cleveland's 1884 run was a huge smear campaign, thanks to his admission of having fathered a child by Maria Halpern - even though the father could have been Cleveland's law partner, Oscar Folsom. (Maria didn't know herself who the father was, so she named the child Oscar Folsom Cleveland.) Grover Cleveland saved his campaign by being honest and admitting to his scandal.

A few decades later, however, the press and the Democrats toned down their interest in illicit affairs when Woodrow Wilson proved that he was no prudish university professor, but Peck's Bad Boy instead. Google the name Mary Allen Hudbert Peck. And Mrs. Peck was just the lead-in to a more salacious affair with Edith Bolling Galt after the death of Wilson's wife. We all know Wilson married this mistress -- and she ruled the roost in the halls of government after his stroke.

At the turn-of-the-century, it appears that the news corps decided to take a different approach to protecting the private lives of politicians. Instead of being openly affiliated with certain political parties, the news people decided to be more independent and objective, and they frowned upon exposing dirty little secrets. In the 1920s, the American Society of Newspaper Editors published such pronouncements as, "...a newspaper should not invade private rights or feelings without sure warrant of public right as distinguished from public curiosity." We have mentioned Harding and Carrie Phillips and Nan Britton and illegitimate child previously on another thread here, but the new attitude of the press as well as the Democrats' failure to exploit Harding's sexual conquests benefited Harding enough to make him President.

Now, after all this meandering down the path, the point of my posting is to suggest that maybe it's time for news media of all kinds, as well as the American public, to go back to paying more attention to issues and less to scandals. Scandals run their course and are forgotten by most over time. John F. Kennedy's peccadilloes were covered up or forgotten after his death, and lord knows, former President Clinton's must have been forgotten because he became a shining star during the last campaign...

BTW: Lincoln takes a beating by innuendo in the book, and Buchanan takes a downright thrashing.

[My Name Is Kate]

One of the main similarities (if not the topmost one) between Lincoln and Trump is that Lincoln preserved the physical unity of this country when it was being divided by slavery (and other things), and kept the concept of democracy alive as a viable form of government. Now it is up to Trump to again save this country from descending into a third world, socialist/fascist/communist nanny state due to the agenda of left-wing liberals (and RINOs) who hate this country as founded.

Here is a movie that might be worth seeing, though I have not seen it yet, and may not. There is also a book of the same title by the same author.

https://www.dineshdsouza.com/films/death-of-a-nation/

(CNN is the least-trusted name in news!)

[David Lockmiller]

(08-13-2018 02:55 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Oh, man! I don't know where to begin when I'm trying to topple David from his bully pulpit... But, I would like it to be known that, personally, (even though he tends to get my dander up), I do learn some Lincoln things from his sermons (said with respect). However, when he can't make a Lincoln distinction and starts down the liberal path of suggesting things like nuclear war, I shut down.

I had written:

June 13, 2018 - Trump claims North Korea is "no longer a nuclear threat."

Since this statement is true, when does the transport of nuclear weapons from Korea to the United States for the confirmed destruction of these weapons begin?

Laurie, you then wrote in response:

However, to satisfy David's request to cite what I consider reputable sources: The Wall Street Journal (which some of our museum volunteers share with me); The Washington Post (even though I canceled them because some of their editorials kept ticking me off); usually anything run under an Associated Press byline; National Public Radio; occasionally catch BBC postings, and consider them a good source for the European world view of America.

Now, David, take a deep breath - when I really want to know in-depth coverage of an event, political debate, etc., I turn on Fox News! As of January 2018, it is considered the most trusted of the television news stations.

Laurie, as it is considered the most trusted of the television news stations, you may want to read this July 2, 2018 Fox News Report (published three weeks after President Trump's statement): "North Korea reportedly expands major missile plant: report." It lists in order as "trustworthy" sources: the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post, the Associated Press, and Fox News Sunday.

The North Korean government is reportedly putting the finishing touches on the expansion of a major missile plant just weeks after Kim Jong Un’s summit with President Trump in Singapore.

The Wall Street Journal reported that the plant’s satellite images were examined by researchers in Middlebury Institute of International studies in Monterey, Calif. The researchers told the paper that the completion of the plant happened at about the same time as Trump was meeting Kim.

A separate organization reported that it noticed that upgrades were also being made on the country’s main nuclear-research center.


The Washington Post on Saturday cited unnamed U.S. intelligence officials as concluding that North Korea does not intend to fully surrender its nuclear stockpile.

Evidence collected since the June 12 summit in Singapore points to preparations to deceive the U.S. about the number of nuclear warheads in North Korea’s arsenal as well as the existence of undisclosed facilities used to make fissile material for nuclear bombs, according to the report.

It said the findings support a new, previously undisclosed Defense Intelligence Agency estimate that North Korea is unlikely to denuclearize.

A U.S. official told The Associated Press that the Post’s report was accurate and that the assessment reflected the consistent view across U.S. government agencies for the past several weeks. The official was not authorized to comment publicly on the matter and requested anonymity.

John Bolton, a national security adviser for President Trump, told “Fox News Sunday” that he would not comment on these reports on intelligence that were apparently leaked to the media.

Laurie, my question to you is: Do you now agree with President Trump's statement claim of June 13, 2018 that North Korea is "no longer a nuclear threat" or the subsequent contrary statements made in the Fox News Report of July 2, 2018?

[L Verge]

(08-14-2018 10:46 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  

(08-13-2018 02:55 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Oh, man! I don't know where to begin when I'm trying to topple David from his bully pulpit... But, I would like it to be known that, personally, (even though he tends to get my dander up), I do learn some Lincoln things from his sermons (said with respect). However, when he can't make a Lincoln distinction and starts down the liberal path of suggesting things like nuclear war, I shut down.

I had written:

June 13, 2018 - Trump claims North Korea is "no longer a nuclear threat."

Since this statement is true, when does the transport of nuclear weapons from Korea to the United States for the confirmed destruction of these weapons begin?

Laurie, you then wrote in response:

However, to satisfy David's request to cite what I consider reputable sources: The Wall Street Journal (which some of our museum volunteers share with me); The Washington Post (even though I canceled them because some of their editorials kept ticking me off); usually anything run under an Associated Press byline; National Public Radio; occasionally catch BBC postings, and consider them a good source for the European world view of America.

Now, David, take a deep breath - when I really want to know in-depth coverage of an event, political debate, etc., I turn on Fox News! As of January 2018, it is considered the most trusted of the television news stations.

Laurie, as it is considered the most trusted of the television news stations, you may want to read this July 2, 2018 Fox News Report (published three weeks after President Trump's statement): "North Korea reportedly expands major missile plant: report." It lists in order as "trustworthy" sources: the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post, the Associated Press, and Fox News Sunday.

The North Korean government is reportedly putting the finishing touches on the expansion of a major missile plant just weeks after Kim Jong Un’s summit with President Trump in Singapore.

The Wall Street Journal reported that the plant’s satellite images were examined by researchers in Middlebury Institute of International studies in Monterey, Calif. The researchers told the paper that the completion of the plant happened at about the same time as Trump was meeting Kim.

A separate organization reported that it noticed that upgrades were also being made on the country’s main nuclear-research center.


The Washington Post on Saturday cited unnamed U.S. intelligence officials as concluding that North Korea does not intend to fully surrender its nuclear stockpile.

Evidence collected since the June 12 summit in Singapore points to preparations to deceive the U.S. about the number of nuclear warheads in North Korea’s arsenal as well as the existence of undisclosed facilities used to make fissile material for nuclear bombs, according to the report.

It said the findings support a new, previously undisclosed Defense Intelligence Agency estimate that North Korea is unlikely to denuclearize.

A U.S. official told The Associated Press that the Post’s report was accurate and that the assessment reflected the consistent view across U.S. government agencies for the past several weeks. The official was not authorized to comment publicly on the matter and requested anonymity.

John Bolton, a national security adviser for President Trump, told “Fox News Sunday” that he would not comment on these reports on intelligence that were apparently leaked to the media.

Laurie, my question to you is: Do you now agree with President Trump's statement claim of June 13, 2018 that North Korea is "no longer a nuclear threat" or the subsequent contrary statements made in the Fox News Report of July 2, 2018?

David - I think you have missed the gist of my statement entirely. I said that I will read your comments when they teach me something about Lincoln, but I will not engage with you on unrelated subjects.

Find me a Lincoln statement that mentions North Korea or nuclear war and I will read it... Sorry, but I am not the least bit interested in your modern, liberal viewpoints right now.

[Gene C]

WARNING:

Reading your newspaper or watching the nightly news may be hazardous to your health.
May cause nausea, constipation, diarrhea, headaches, disorders of the nervous system, depression, hot flashes, loss of appetite, dizziness, a decrease in cognitive brain function, and foot fungus.

Do not drink the Kool-Aid within 30 minutes prior to or after reading, watching or listening to the news. May inhibit your ability to discern fact from fiction.

[mikegriffith1]

Yes, Lincoln believed in protective tariffs, absolutely, and I think history shows that they work. They certainly worked for America when we had them. We became an industrial powerhouse behind high tariffs. China has had protective tariffs for decades.

I think Lincoln would like many of Trump's policies, but I don't think he would view Trump's conduct very highly, and I say this as someone who voted for Trump and who likes most of his policies.

[My Name Is Kate]

I think Lincoln would be appalled at many of the people today who claim to be fans of Lincoln and think they know all about him and understand who he was, but whose modern politics go against everything Lincoln stood for and worked for.

(I think Lincoln and Trump would be good friends.)

[L Verge]

I agree with both Mike and Kate. I think Lincoln would somewhat admire Trump's outspoken opinions on topics and people. He was the consummate politician, who knew how to make his decisions tolerable to others - even if it meant swaying a bit every now and then to suit the occasion. Even then, he was often the target of criticism (and not just from Southerners). While his four years were pretty much tied up in concentrating on the Civil War, I think he would feel sorry for Trump who is being attacked from so many sides for things that supposedly happened before he even assumed the Presidency.

I also think that both men have one common denominator - a genuine love for their country. That is one thing that I believe many of our current politicians and leaders in industry and society do not have. They love themselves and their power more than they do the principles of democracy on which our country depends.

[David Lockmiller]

(08-27-2018 09:01 PM)L Verge Wrote:  I also think that both men have one common denominator - a genuine love for their country. That is one thing that I believe many of our current politicians and leaders in industry and society do not have. They love themselves and their power more than they do the principles of democracy on which our country depends.

Donald Trump loves himself perhaps more than any other human being has ever loved himself. How many Trump Towers are there in this world? He even wanted to build one in Russia.

Donald certainly does not have much love for the truth. How many lies has Donald Trump told since he became President? I believe that the Washington Post is keeping a documented "running tab." As I recall, the last count was over two thousand.

We've all heard of the phrase in reference to Abraham Lincoln as being "Honest Abe." Has anyone ever referred to Donald Trump as "Honest Donald?" I don't think so, unless he or she has been well paid. Rudolph Giuliani is getting rich singing the Donald's virtues. Michael Cohen for many years was willing "to take a bullet for Donald Trump" until he realized that he was going to be the next in line to be thrown under the wheels of the bus by the Donald.

Maybe ask Donald's current wife about his fidelity to his marriage vows. Or, you can ask Stormy Daniels and Playboy model Karen McDougal.

Donald Trump has repeatedly and often said the he keeps his promises. When is he going to keep his oft-repeated promise to release his tax returns to the citizens of the United States?

Regarding Donald's genuine love for his country, talk about his repeated draft avoidance during the Viet Nam War and his statement that John McCain was only a war hero because he got captured, tortured, and refused to return ahead of his fellow prisoners out of order of capture. And, where was the proper respect due to Senator McCain following his very recent death by President Trump ordering the raising of the American flag to full staff over the White House after only a half day of respect?

And, speaking of the principles of democracy, President Trump could put an end to the murder of innocent children in Yemen by ordering the cessation of refueling Saudi jets in flight to and from the their targets in Yemen and by the end of smart bomb sales to the Saudi's. He can do this until the Saudi's are able to properly distinguish military targets from civilian targets such as hospitals, marriages, funerals, and children on a school outing. President Trump is now putting at risk American military personnel being accused justifiably of participation in war crimes. What distinguishes President Trump's inaction's in Yemen from Aung San Suu Kyi's inaction's in Myanmar? Both are silent as war crimes have been committed, and continue, within their sphere of influence. And, both appear to love themselves and their power more than they do the principles of democracy on which their respective countries depend.

[L Verge]

Thank you, David, for your personal assessment of Donald Trump. I would prefer that you respond to my next question via my email at work, rather than on this forum -- however, you are from San Francisco, I believe, what is your opinion of Nancy Pelosi?

laurie.verge@pgparks.com

[David Lockmiller]

(08-28-2018 09:22 AM)L Verge Wrote:  Thank you, David, for your personal assessment of Donald Trump. I would prefer that you respond to my next question via my email at work, rather than on this forum -- however, you are from San Francisco, I believe, what is your opinion of Nancy Pelosi?

laurie.verge@pgparks.com

Laurie, you can start a new thread - "RE: Similarities Between Pelosi and Trump"

In my opinion, there are many fewer dissimilarities between Pelosi and Trump than there are between Lincoln and Trump. I am certain that we will have many fewer disagreements on this new thread.

Should I respond to your posts on this new thread to your email at work or make my posts on this forum?