Lloyd Ostendorf's Book of Mary Lincoln Photos

[Susan Higginbotham]

Has anyone read Lloyd Ostendorf's Photographs of Mary Lincoln? Having bought his "Lincoln's Unknown Private Life," and discovered that the authenticity of the recollection is greatly in doubt, I'm a little wary of buying the Mary Lincoln book now

[Gene C]

I didn't find it in the Internet Archives.
But I did find this book by Ostendorf you can maybe compare it to.

Lincoln in Photographs
https://archive.org/stream/lincolninphot...0/mode/2up

Off subject, but anyone seen the photo on page 105 & 116 before?

[RJNorton]

(06-09-2016 02:01 PM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote:  Has anyone read Lloyd Ostendorf's Photographs of Mary Lincoln? Having bought his "Lincoln's Unknown Private Life," and discovered that the authenticity of the recollection is greatly in doubt, I'm a little wary of buying the Mary Lincoln book now

Susan, I have this book. It's really more of a pamphlet than a book. Donna McCreary once posted that some of Ostendorf's dates are wrong for some of the pictures of Mary.

(06-09-2016 03:15 PM)Gene C Wrote:  Off subject, but anyone seen the photo on page 105 & 116 before?

Gene, I also have this book. I do not recall seeing that photo in any other book. The photo bothers me --> to my aging eyes it looks like Lincoln's image has been added at a later time to the original photo. Look at how the soldiers are ignoring him (they are "lounging" and don't even seem to notice him), and he's the President of the United States! I just think there's something wrong with that photo (although it apparently passed Ostendorf's "inspection"). I am NOT a photo expert, but I am leery of that photo being genuine. It just does not seem right to my eyes.

[Eva Elisabeth]

(06-09-2016 02:01 PM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote:  Has anyone read Lloyd Ostendorf's Photographs of Mary Lincoln? Having bought his "Lincoln's Unknown Private Life," and discovered that the authenticity of the recollection is greatly in doubt, I'm a little wary of buying the Mary Lincoln book now

Susan, I'm very certain I once found it online when researching a particular dress. I will try to find again.

---

(06-09-2016 04:28 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(06-09-2016 03:15 PM)Gene C Wrote:  Off subject, but anyone seen the photo on page 105 & 116 before?

Gene, I also have this book. I do not recall seeing that photo in any other book. The photo bothers me --> to my aging eyes it looks like Lincoln's image has been added at a later time to the original photo. Look at how the soldiers are ignoring him (they are "lounging" and don't even seem to notice him), and he's the President of the United States! I just think there's something wrong with that photo (although it apparently passed Ostendorf's "inspection"). I am NOT a photo expert, but I am leery of that photo being genuine. It just does not seem right to my eyes.

Same here - I've not seen it anywhere else, and it is definitely fishy. Just look at how close the ear is to the collar compared to all other photos. The neck has mystically shrunk.

[ELCore]

(06-09-2016 03:15 PM)Gene C Wrote:  Lincoln in Photographs
https://archive.org/stream/lincolninphot...0/mode/2up

Off subject, but anyone seen the photo on page 105 & 116 before?

I cannot find it in the "Gallery" chapter in the Kunhardts' Looking for Lincoln. Published in 2008, it's supposedly a complete collection, roughly chronological, of all 114 Abraham Lincoln photos. I don't have any reason to question that. The only photos of Lincoln posing with soldiers that I see are six Alexander Gardner photos taken at Antietam, October 3, 1862: their Ostendorf numbers are O-62 through O-67. Perhaps I'm just showing my ignorance, but I find it unlikely that a lieutenant would be in, apparently, sole possession of a Lincoln photo.

[Eva Elisabeth]

(06-09-2016 02:01 PM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote:  Has anyone read Lloyd Ostendorf's Photographs of Mary Lincoln? Having bought his "Lincoln's Unknown Private Life," and discovered that the authenticity of the recollection is greatly in doubt, I'm a little wary of buying the Mary Lincoln book now

I cannot find again where I found it. It was provided for pdf download
I have the downloaded pdf file and tried to send Roger to forward, but it's too huge to send.

[Eva Elisabeth]

I've tried to look into how to use a drop box (Kees used to provide download that way), but obviously it's not possible just on a phone, even if you download the app.

---

Victory - here it should be:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mryyt1pftw8fks...f.pdf?dl=0
Hope it works...please try soon and let me know (I won't leave the dropox app and file forever on my phone for storage space reasons, don't known if the link would still work then.)

[Gene C]

It worked Eva, That was great. Thanks to you and Kees.

I've always wondered about the authenticity of the photo on page 289, ML O-7, by William Mumler.
She appears so plain compared to other pictures. No jewelry or flowers.

Noticed the colorful dresses and low neckline disappear after Willie's death. Did she ever wear that style again after his death, but never photographed that way anymore?

[RJNorton]

There is a page on Mary Lincoln's neckline here.

(Gene, the page does not answer your question, though)

[Susan Higginbotham]

Thanks, Eva and Roger!

[Houmes]

(06-09-2016 05:02 PM)ELCore Wrote:  

(06-09-2016 03:15 PM)Gene C Wrote:  Lincoln in Photographs
https://archive.org/stream/lincolninphot...0/mode/2up

Off subject, but anyone seen the photo on page 105 & 116 before?

I cannot find it in the "Gallery" chapter in the Kunhardts' Looking for Lincoln. Published in 2008, it's supposedly a complete collection, roughly chronological, of all 114 Abraham Lincoln photos. I don't have any reason to question that. The only photos of Lincoln posing with soldiers that I see are six Alexander Gardner photos taken at Antietam, October 3, 1862: their Ostendorf numbers are O-62 through O-67. Perhaps I'm just showing my ignorance, but I find it unlikely that a lieutenant would be in, apparently, sole possession of a Lincoln photo.

Lloyd Ostendorf occupies a unique position in the list of Lincoln photograph historians. He was persistent, even obsessive in finding and researching previously unknown images of Abraham Lincoln. He was also known to make wild assumptions and at times publish incorrect information. In his book The Photographs of Mary Todd Lincoln he included prints that he attributed to photographs which had never been previously seen, probably because they don't exist except as an engraving made by an artist, for popular consumption. He once laid claim to owning an image in his large collection which is only a cheap copy made at a local copy shop. The legendary Lincolnophile and book store owner Ralph Newman told me more than once--and he was a close friend of Lloyd--that he "wanted to believe so bad that a treasure in his collection was real, even't if it wasn't." Mr. Ostendorf, with his research and sharing images with the world, did a great service to Lincoln historians, collectors, and admirers of the president, but at times his information should be considered suspect.

[RJNorton]

(06-13-2016 09:51 AM)Houmes Wrote:  and at times publish incorrect information.

I know he made a mistake on the John B. Bachelder "Lincoln in Death" image. He called it a photo, but it's actually a drawing.

[Eva Elisabeth]

For completion - here are some other probable errors we discussed:
http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...f#pid19614

http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...f#pid43873

See Roger's post #8 here, and Donna's reply to it, #18 on the following page:
http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...s#pid29789

[Donna McCreary]

(06-10-2016 06:24 AM)Gene C Wrote:  It worked Eva, That was great. Thanks to you and Kees.

I've always wondered about the authenticity of the photo on page 289, ML O-7, by William Mumler.
She appears so plain compared to other pictures. No jewelry or flowers.

Noticed the colorful dresses and low neckline disappear after Willie's death. Did she ever wear that style again after his death, but never photographed that way anymore?

Yes, Mary was as woman of fashion and wore what was fashionably appropriate for the occasion. There were several evening events at the White House which called for a lower neckline, and Mary wore gowns fitting the style.
Low necklines were only worn as formal, evening wear for a ball -- they were never worn as day wear or for semi-formal events.

---

Lloyd Ostendorf's book of Mary's photos is good resource material. He did an excellent job of cataloging the photos, and he did the best he could when dating them. Lloyd's focus was photography - not fashion. By studying the fashions in the photos, we can better date them. There are also changes in some of the photographs dates based on family letters. For example, Lloyd dated one photograph as January 1862. The dress that Mary wore in the photograph was given to Elizabeth Grimsley when she returned to Springfield after her six month stay in Washington. Elizabeth left the White House in September 1861; therefore, the photo had to have been taken prior to Elizabeth's departure.

Copies of this book are rather expensive on the secondary market. I have an extra copy that I am willing to sell. If interested, please send me a private message.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Re.: "There were several evening events at the White House which called for a lower neckline, and Mary wore gowns fitting the style."

Donna, what kind of events would have called for a lower neckline (how low?), and since when in history?

What do you think about her husband's alleged comment: "Whew, our cat has a long tale to-night…it is my opinion that if some of that tail were nearer the head, it would be a better style” - do you think he was ignorant about fashion, just kidding, or was he right and Mary too fashy?