Threaded Mode | Linear Mode

L Verge · 11-13-2015, 11:39 AM

Betty will have to help me here, but I don't remember any speculation going on about the sexual proclivities of any of the conspirators until sometime in the 1980s -- and, to this day, I know of no evidence to support any of the speculation. My personal feelings are that one is treading on very slippery grounds to try and espouse such thoughts about any of the conspirators or Weichmann or to make it a factor in the assassination story.

RJNorton · 11-13-2015, 11:59 AM

(11-13-2015 11:34 AM)John Fazio Wrote: Weichmann's sexual orientation: Kauffman, "American", p. 362. I am not in my library, so I cannot tell you his source.

John, I am not absolutely certain on this, but I think Mike Kauffman was going by his own interpretation of what was said in the "Clara letter."

John Fazio · 11-13-2015, 12:14 PM

(11-13-2015 11:39 AM)L Verge Wrote: Betty will have to help me here, but I don't remember any speculation going on about the sexual proclivities of any of the conspirators until sometime in the 1980s -- and, to this day, I know of no evidence to support any of the speculation. My personal feelings are that one is treading on very slippery grounds to try and espouse such thoughts about any of the conspirators or Weichmann or to make it a factor in the assassination story.

Laurie:

You will be pleased to know that I agree with you completely. I merely repeated Kauffman's assertion. I have no independent confirmation and I do not plan to look for any, because I really don't care what Weichmann's or anyone else's sexual orientation was. As for Weichmann and Surratt sleeping together, it is a well known fact that it was very common in centuries preceding the 20th for people of the same sex to share beds inasmuch as bedding was frequently in short supply.

John

Gene C · 11-13-2015, 12:26 PM

Thank you John for clarifying earlier comments. I apologize for misunderstanding.

John Fazio · (This post was last modified: 11-13-2015 12:42 PM by John Fazio.)

(11-13-2015 11:59 AM)RJNorton Wrote:
(11-13-2015 11:34 AM)John Fazio Wrote: Weichmann's sexual orientation: Kauffman, "American", p. 362. I am not in my library, so I cannot tell you his source.

John, I am not absolutely certain on this, but I think Mike Kauffman was going by his own interpretation of what was said in the "Clara letter."

Roger:

Please refresh my recollection of "the Clara letter".

John

(11-13-2015 12:26 PM)Gene C Wrote: Thank you John for clarifying earlier comments. I apologize for misunderstanding.

Gene:

No apology is necessary. Language is a very imperfect tool, but it's all we have.

John

RJNorton · 11-13-2015, 03:33 PM

John, the Clara letter was a letter to Weichmann allegedly written by a woman named Clara. I believe Mike Kauffman thinks it was a plant, actually written by Sarah Slater (at the request of Booth or J. Surratt) in an attempt to embarrass Weichmann. I will post what I have, but in the actual letter some words were underlined which won't show here. Although addressed to Weichmann the letter was found with Booth's belongings. My best guess is that Weichmann never read it if the theory that it was a plant is correct. I think the letter implies Weichmann's bisexuality (or at least possible to interpret it as such), and that is the probable basis for what Mike says in AB.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

NY Feby 15, 1865

Yr hurried note Mr. Weichmann just before your return ^ from Philada ^ to W City ^ Jany 7th^ gave promise of one of your ever welcome “lengthy” letters which has not as yet reached me. I hope you could not possibly have been offended by any part of my reply on Jany 9th, which I suppose our mutual friend Mr. S --- tt found in same envelop with his little note. How sorry I should be to have anything disturb the disinterested friendship existing between us. Mr. Weichmann -- I regretted to hear of any annoyances to you that gave so little leisure & caused yr trip to Philda. Is it all “sunshine” again with you, & how did you enjoy yr trip to Baltimore end of Jany? Will you please write to me directly & explain why Mr. S has not been to NY or if he is still at Home. I have often thought of you lately, and sincerely hope yr prospects are fair for gaining the heart you seemed to covet. You see I understood your affectionate remark about Mr. S --- tt & the conclusion, “I love him, indeed I do, & his _____ too.” Now I hope you wont mind telling me if your suit is favored. I will promise to keep it a profound secret, so ‘do tell.’ You know none would rejoice more sincerely than I over any event you desired. Allow me to congratulate you on yr apointment abroad. Do you pass through Philda or N Y ^ in July^ to embark? Will you oblige me by an immediate reply to this, especially about Mr. S --- tt, for I shall bid adieu to N Y on the 21st inst. & desire yr reply on 20th if possible. Now before you read the next page promise yrself not to tell anyone. [next p.] I expect to pass through W. City n the 23rd or 24th, ^P.M> ^ & if you will ony write in reply to all my questions the hour this reaches you, I promise to send you a line on arrival to inform you where to find me. The Dr. & Mrs. R dont know yet if we shall be at Willard’s or elsewhere, or I would tell you now; however you can find out even if yr letter dont come, but I should prefer the answer requested. I shall probably leave again on 25th & dont wish a word of this spoken of. Will you oblige me by sending information of the health of my Uncle & his family. I have not written him of my visit, but shall arrange to see him if ‘all’s well.’ We will talk over :surprising” him. I hope you will bring dear Miss S --- tt with you to call on me. I could love her for yr sake & her brother’s; two of my best kindest, and most sincere W. City friends.
Watch the papers for name of R in “arrivals” on 23rd. I hope our friendly relation obviates the necessity of apology for addressing you without an unanswered letter to reply to. The distance that will separate us after our possible interview on the 23rd or 24th will be far greater than ever before, we shall no longer be able to correspond, though the ties of friendship will ever remain unchanged, I hope & feel it will be so if you are willing.
May yr future be all you wish. I know & feel Miss S --- tt is worthy of you, & they are all favorably disposed towards you I believe. Give my kindest regards to all friends. Love to Cousin L & Mrs. D & Mrs. M----r’s family.
The early reply I ask will be esteemed a great favor. Hoping your health is improving, I am as ever
Most sincerely yr Friend
Clara

John Fazio · 11-13-2015, 11:34 PM

(11-13-2015 03:33 PM)RJNorton Wrote: John, the Clara letter was a letter to Weichmann allegedly written by a woman named Clara. I believe Mike Kauffman thinks it was a plant, actually written by Sarah Slater (at the request of Booth or J. Surratt) in an attempt to embarrass Weichmann. I will post what I have, but in the actual letter some words were underlined which won't show here. Although addressed to Weichmann the letter was found with Booth's belongings. My best guess is that Weichmann never read it if the theory that it was a plant is correct. I think the letter implies Weichmann's bisexuality (or at least possible to interpret it as such), and that is the probable basis for what Mike says in AB.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

NY Feby 15, 1865

Yr hurried note Mr. Weichmann just before your return ^ from Philada ^ to W City ^ Jany 7th^ gave promise of one of your ever welcome “lengthy” letters which has not as yet reached me. I hope you could not possibly have been offended by any part of my reply on Jany 9th, which I suppose our mutual friend Mr. S --- tt found in same envelop with his little note. How sorry I should be to have anything disturb the disinterested friendship existing between us. Mr. Weichmann -- I regretted to hear of any annoyances to you that gave so little leisure & caused yr trip to Philda. Is it all “sunshine” again with you, & how did you enjoy yr trip to Baltimore end of Jany? Will you please write to me directly & explain why Mr. S has not been to NY or if he is still at Home. I have often thought of you lately, and sincerely hope yr prospects are fair for gaining the heart you seemed to covet. You see I understood your affectionate remark about Mr. S --- tt & the conclusion, “I love him, indeed I do, & his _____ too.” Now I hope you wont mind telling me if your suit is favored. I will promise to keep it a profound secret, so ‘do tell.’ You know none would rejoice more sincerely than I over any event you desired. Allow me to congratulate you on yr apointment abroad. Do you pass through Philda or N Y ^ in July^ to embark? Will you oblige me by an immediate reply to this, especially about Mr. S --- tt, for I shall bid adieu to N Y on the 21st inst. & desire yr reply on 20th if possible. Now before you read the next page promise yrself not to tell anyone. [next p.] I expect to pass through W. City n the 23rd or 24th, ^P.M> ^ & if you will ony write in reply to all my questions the hour this reaches you, I promise to send you a line on arrival to inform you where to find me. The Dr. & Mrs. R dont know yet if we shall be at Willard’s or elsewhere, or I would tell you now; however you can find out even if yr letter dont come, but I should prefer the answer requested. I shall probably leave again on 25th & dont wish a word of this spoken of. Will you oblige me by sending information of the health of my Uncle & his family. I have not written him of my visit, but shall arrange to see him if ‘all’s well.’ We will talk over :surprising” him. I hope you will bring dear Miss S --- tt with you to call on me. I could love her for yr sake & her brother’s; two of my best kindest, and most sincere W. City friends.
Watch the papers for name of R in “arrivals” on 23rd. I hope our friendly relation obviates the necessity of apology for addressing you without an unanswered letter to reply to. The distance that will separate us after our possible interview on the 23rd or 24th will be far greater than ever before, we shall no longer be able to correspond, though the ties of friendship will ever remain unchanged, I hope & feel it will be so if you are willing.
May yr future be all you wish. I know & feel Miss S --- tt is worthy of you, & they are all favorably disposed towards you I believe. Give my kindest regards to all friends. Love to Cousin L & Mrs. D & Mrs. M----r’s family.
The early reply I ask will be esteemed a great favor. Hoping your health is improving, I am as ever
Most sincerely yr Friend
Clara

Roger:

Thanks. I do not believe I ever read it before.

Why would Booth and Surratt want to embarrass Weichmann? The evidence indicates that they did not respect him very much ("he could neither ride nor shoot") and did not trust him (he was "nosy"). And they had no idea, obviously, that he would one day testify against Mrs. Surratt, though it must be said that it was not his testimony, so much, as Lloyds's, that sent Mary to the gallows.

John

Pamela · 11-14-2015, 12:00 AM

Just what is a "disinterested friendship"? I wonder if the writer or Booth had any idea how creepy (probably intentional spy-like talk?) this letter sounds with abbreviations like "Jany", "Feby", "yr" and "S---tt". There are a lot of dates thrown in and the letter itself is dated "Feby" 15, which could be the date it was written or not, but that was about a month before the failed kidnapping or phony failed kidnapping attempt. The letter referenced the trip taken by Surratt and Weichmann to Baltimore, each with different agendas, so the letter was written after that event.

The next to last paragraph is very obtuse, at least to me. I wonder if it was meant to sound like spy talk in order to suggest that Weichmann was a spy. Booth or Surratt or both, who commissioned the letter, must have planned to plant it in Weichmann's possession, which is also creepy. For that to be the case, Booth, Surratt, or even Mary would have possibly buried it in one of Weichmann's trunks in his room, in a way that he wouldn't have been likely have come across it, but that authorities would when the house and everything in it was searched following a crime that would draw suspicion on the house. I think the motive for the letter was more than to embarrass Weichmann; rather it was to compromise him as a potential witness.

Because Booth got sloppy and failed to follow through with the planting of the letter and it was found with his belongings rather than Weichmann's, it serves to provide evidence of Weichmann's innocence of the conspiracy and the conspirators' fear of him and his loyalty to the Union.

The sentence that Michael Kaufmann interpreted as bisexuality sounds simply like the writer guessed that "& his _____ too." referenced Anna who afterward was referred to as "Miss S___tt", Weichmann's love interest. An "affectionate remark" about a friend followed by a sentence that sounds like a rhyme, "I love him, indeed I do, and his _____, too." sounds to me like the writer's excuse to guess, ("you see I understood") that Weichmann's expression of love and fondness for John hinted at the real object of his affection, Anna. It sounds like "Clara" was trying to be playful with her pal, or the person she had a "disinterested friendship" with, Weichmann. I wonder what Freud would make of that phrase?

Even if you'd rather interpret the sentence as Kauffmann does, it's mighty thin evidence to support a conclusion of bisexuality. But I guess it's enough if you want to.

John Fazio · 11-14-2015, 03:55 AM

(11-12-2015 07:26 PM)Pamela Wrote: First, before I complain!, I must say that I think your book is terrific. I appreciate your approach of organizing and analyzing evidence and versions of events.

I do have a problem with your characterization of Louis Weichmann as a milquetoast, "One has only to look at a photograph of Weichmann to realize he was something of a milquetoast. For that reason, and also, perhaps, because he was bisexual, he was shunted aside and made to feel inferior by those who fancied themselves macho men who had "bloody work" to do and who knew how to ride and shoot."

From Dictionary.reference.com: noun, ( sometimes initial capital letter)
1.
a very timid, unassertive, spineless person, especially one who is easily dominated or intimidated

First, I don't know how to divine those qualities from a photograph exactly (maybe a small chin/ jawline, large eyes with a "deer in a headlight" look? However, like you, I have experience studying faces, for me, it's for portraiture, and if anything, I would say that Weichmann's face expresses strength to the point of stubbornness or resoluteness.

As for the bisexual reference as a reason for "being shunted aside" by "macho men"--aren't we in a more enlightened age where we know that gay or bisexual men, or transsexuals can be every bit as fierce and macho as heteros. Note all the athletes coming out of the closet, as transexuals or gay, including Bruce, now Caitlyn Jenner, who won an Olympic gold medal, had three marriages and six children, military men like the transgender Navy Seal who helped kil Bin Ladin, Kristen Beck, and historically, Alexander the Great, who was homosexual. Two hundred years ago these men would have done their "macho" work and stayed in the closet, unknown to their friends and associates as to their real sexual orientations.
Not to mention, the lack of evidence that Weichmann was homosexual or bisexual. A minor point, apparently.

And for the sake of argument, if we're going to decide someone is a milquetoast because of a photograph, my vote goes to John Surratt dressed as a Papal Zuoave or wearing his Garibaldi jacket, or even the youngest photo of him. But, I would not judge him for those photos. However, he was a member of the Society of Angels at St. Charles, a group that Weichmann said he was much too wild to be accepted by, in the Townsend interview. And Surratt showed weakness by becoming enthralled by Booth and abandoning good sense and a sensible job at the Adams Express Company, to do Booth's bidding, to join a venture that he described as, "utterly impracticable" and a "wild scheme" in the Hanson Hiss interview. Surratt hid behind the skirts of priests in Canada while his mother and men he brought into the conspiracy--Herold, Atzerodt and Powell, endured the trial and died on the scaffold, and his friend Mudd suffered in the Dry Tortugas; he murdered unarmed, starving union men to impress his sneaky, rebel spy girlfriend, and was never man enough to tell the truth about the conspiracy. I'd say Surratt was a much better fit for the definition of milquetoast.

And I don't know where you find the evidence that Weichmann was made to feel inferior. If you can direct me to it, I'd like to study that information. Weichmann was two years older that Surratt, was intelligent and talented, an upper classman in school and someone who Surratt asked help for in obtaining a teaching position after his father died. It was Surratt who sought Weichmann's company and whom Weichmann treated with courtesy and friendship, and introduced John to accomplished men, fellow boarders, when he visited him in Washington City. Weichmann hoped to help Surratt obtain "sensible" employment as he did for St. Marie.

In regards to your suggestion that Weichmann gave information to Augustus Howell, in order to deflect "ostracism and belittlement" in the Surratt boarding house--that's simply your imagination. Weichmann explained the conversation he had with Howell in the Evidence and the source of the information he shared, which was available in newspapers, and there is no reason to believe that Weichmann wasn't truthful. However, there was plenty of reason to discount Howell.

Pamela:

A few comments.

First, thank you for your expression of appreciation of my approach to organizing and analyzing evidence and versions of events. I tried to be objective. Truth should be more important than prevailing. But, regrettably, elephants rule (Jonathan Haight).

My impression, and it is only that, is that Weichmann was quite different from the conspirators, that he was relatively intelligent, mature, sensible and mild mannered, whereas they were, or in some cases fancied themselves to be, macho types, wired, reckless, designing, stupid and mercenary. I think the evidence supports that judgment, and though I might have chosen a better word to describe him than "milquetoast", the word does differentiate one type from the other, so I think it is OK. The word does not have to be a pejorative, and I did not intend it to be.

As for his bisexuality, observe that I did not state it categorically, but conditionally ("...and also, perhaps, because he was bisexual...")

Alexander homosexual? It seems to me that one will have a hard time establishing that with any degree of certainty from this distance. Is there a source that asserts it unequivocally? If so, I would like to have it.

Surratt was not a milquetoast in any sense of the word. Quite the opposite. "If you knew all the things I've done, it would make you stare (or gape)", he said to McMillan. He waved a gun and told McMillan that he hoped he would live another two years so that he could serve Andrew Johnson the way Abraham Lincoln was served. (Can you picture Weichmann doing that?) He lied about nearly everything, including his whereabouts between April 6 and 19 and including his "escape" in Italy; he was a cold-blooded killer of helpless and emaciated Union escapees and others, which he made no attempt to conceal from McMillan (being outside American jurisdiction); and he abandoned his co-conspirators and his mother to the hangman to save his skin, which infuriated Powell and doubtless the others.

I think there is enough evidence to conclude that Weichmann was never part of the in-crowd at the boardinghouse, that he was made to feel inferior and shunted aside by the "macho" men, and that he resented such treatment in some degree. Surratt himself admitted that he was not part of the conspiracy because he could neither ride nor shoot. He also said he was too nosy. Recall that Kauffman said that Weichmann was the last person Booth would have made a member of his action team. He just wasn't the type.

John

RJNorton · 11-14-2015, 05:17 AM

(11-14-2015 12:00 AM)Pamela Wrote: The next to last paragraph is very obtuse, at least to me. I wonder if it was meant to sound like spy talk in order to suggest that Weichmann was a spy.

Yes. Pam, on p. 362 of AB Mike Kauffmann writes, "More to the point, though, she (Clara) was a Confederate insider, and the letter strongly implies that the prosecution's star witness was one as well. Had the defense known of it, they might have neutralized Lou Weichmann's effectiveness on the stand."

It seems apparent to me that if Mike K. is right, and this letter was a plant written by Sarah Slater, the intent of the letter was to embarrass/discredit Weichmann on multiple levels (not just his alleged bisexuality).

Pamela · (This post was last modified: 11-14-2015 11:49 AM by Pamela.)

"I think there is enough evidence to conclude that Weichmann was never part of the in-crowd at the boardinghouse, that he was made to feel inferior and shunted aside by the "macho" men, and that he resented such treatment in some degree. Surratt himself admitted that he was not part of the conspiracy because he could neither ride nor shoot. He also said he was too nosy. Recall that Kauffman said that Weichmann was the last person Booth would have made a member of his action team. He just wasn't the type.-- John"

There is not a snowball's chance in Saudi Arabia that Weichmann could ever been made to feel inferior by a group that included Atzerodt, Herold (macho men?) and probably Powell, for that matter. Booth's presence was another matter since he apparently sucked the air out of a room and the ladies were all starstruck, including Anna, and her brother. I can imagine Weichmann feeling jealous in a limited way, of Booth. And Weichmann was the "last person" who would have wanted to join Booth's "action team", but he did want to know what they were up to.

You couldn't throw a stovepipe hat across the street without hitting a soldier of some rank, so the "gang" and their horses and guns weren't exactly a novelty or very impressive in Washington City. There is evidence that Weichmann had a lot of confidence in his own talents, personality and intelligence, and physically he had stature and good looks according to Pitman and Wallace. If you remember, while John was driving into the city in a wagon laden with produce to sell like a country bumpkin, Weichmann held the principal teaching position at St. Matthew's school.

I didn't say that I think Surratt was a milquetoast, just that he was a better fit for the term than Weichmann, for whom I don't think it applies at all. I agree, John wasn't a milquetoast, which sounds like a negative term to me, but he was far from impressive. Surratt talked big, accomplished some sneaky courier/spy stuff with the help of others, was a cowardly killer who hid behind Catholic priests, and kept away from the decapitation actions in DC that he facilitated, knowing that others would pay for what he got them involved in, among other lame actions.