Decapitation of the Union

[L Verge]

(06-30-2015 05:38 PM)HerbS Wrote:  Amen Laurie,think of all the sleepless nights RS caused for everyone!

I think you were one of the first to be taken advantage of, Herb. He was certainly an interesting and frustrating person.

[John Fazio]

(06-30-2015 04:30 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Rick Stelnick (god rest his soul) caused me many a sleepless night about five or six years ago, but yes, I think you should check out Dixie Reckoning. While he and I had different views on a variety of things, I can truthfully say that I don't think all of his work should be trashed. You and he remind me a lot of each other - especially now that you are bringing in the New York money and the Peace Democrats.

We are on the same page as far as Fernando Wood is concerned, however. I have asked so many people what they think of him - and never gotten an answer. He and that Texas Senator or (Congressman?) who hung around the halls of Congress for so long as a Confederate before resigning his seat (can't think of the name) have always bugged me.

As for Herold, I'm not sure he ever made it to St. Mary's County, Maryland, let alone Canada. You cite Dr. James B. Merritt as placing Herold in Canada, but I thought that Dr. Merritt was one of the "gentlemen" who, along with Charles Dunham (aka Sanford Conover) and Richard Montgomery, was later proven to have perjured himself during the 1865 Conspiracy Trial?? Didn't he testify later before some committee that he had been paid a good sum of money to lie in order to implicate the Canadian Cabinet?

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(06-30-2015 04:30 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Rick Stelnick (god rest his soul) caused me many a sleepless night about five or six years ago, but yes, I think you should check out Dixie Reckoning. While he and I had different views on a variety of things, I can truthfully say that I don't think all of his work should be trashed. You and he remind me a lot of each other - especially now that you are bringing in the New York money and the Peace Democrats.

We are on the same page as far as Fernando Wood is concerned, however. I have asked so many people what they think of him - and never gotten an answer. He and that Texas Senator or (Congressman?) who hung around the halls of Congress for so long as a Confederate before resigning his seat (can't think of the name) have always bugged me.

As for Herold, I'm not sure he ever made it to St. Mary's County, Maryland, let alone Canada.

Louis Wigfall is the Texas Senator I was trying to think of. I have always thought he managed to bungle both Union and Confederate governments, but I know very little about him.

Laurie and Herb:

OK, I'll pick up a copy of Stelnick's book, not that I need more stimulation. I just finished Burkhardt's Confederate Rage, Yankee Wrath, which knocked my socks off. I knew the war was bad, but I didn't realize how bad.

The evidence for Herold in Canada is far from conclusive, but not because it came from Merritt, but because he was uncertain himself ("I think..."). Yes Merritt, Montgomery and Dunham were exposed as perjurers, but they mixed truth with their perjury (they had to, or be laughed out of court) and we now know that their appearances were arranged by Sanders and their perjury was planted for the purpose of being exposed as such, thereby causing the case against the Confederate leadership (principally Davis) to collapse, which was its purpose. Ask Tidwell and Hall, when you get to heaven, and Gaddy, Hanchett and Winkler. You can ask me too.

John

[HerbS]

Don't waste your time or money on the RS. book John!

[John Fazio]

(07-01-2015 06:37 AM)HerbS Wrote:  Don't waste your time or money on the RS. book John!

Herb:

Thanks for the advice. Laurie seemed to think it was worth a read. In any case, it appears to be a controversial piece. Can you summarize it for me? What is the theme of the book? Its salient points? Its arguments?

John

[Wild Bill]

Buy it, John. As a retired attorney, you can afford it, I dare say. Stop relying on others to do your homework. He basically looks at the Lincoln assassination through the eyes of an Alabama man from unseceded Winston County (home of the 1st Ala Union Cavalry, Sherman's bodyguard in the March to the Sea) who acted as a spy for Grant, gave Booth his derringer in Montgomery (why he had only one instead of the usual pair), was familiar with Texas Unionists like AJ Hamilton, was familiar with the so-called New York faction which competed with Booth for the assassination (I believe it was Atzerodt who mentioned them), and looks at the Old Dutch and European Netherlands financial connections to the American Civil War. It is as outlandish as your book, and he is as positive he is correct as you are. You will love and despise him at the same time--you know, sort of like you and me.

[L Verge]

There have been very few people in this field that I have been literally afraid of, but Rick Stelnick was one of them. I was threatened several times by him in private and at least once on a public forum such as this. Despite this, I cannot casually discount some of the ideas that he proposed. I do need to add here that I have not read the final publication - only parts of his original manuscript.

I will never read the final publication because the manuscript nearly did me in! However, there were points that I consider possible and worthy of more consideration. Take Alka Seltzer and choose to read the book in the middle of winter when there is nothing else to do because it will force you to continue reading.

Rick's style of writing and his way of insinuating that the reader is ignorant if he doesn't already know this material is very hard to digest. He did know a lot about a lot of things and decided to throw it all at you in this work to prove how smart he was. I told you recently that I get exhausted reading Decapitating; Dixie Reckoning put me in a stupor - and remember that I did not read it page for page! I felt like I needed to go on oxygen everytime I finished a chapter!

If you do read it, I want to know your thoughts.

[Gene C]

That's two interesting viewpoints.
Your descriptions make Dark Union sound rather tame.
I think I can survive without reading Dixie Reckoning, I'm following Herb's advice.

[RJNorton]

I have not read Dixie Reckoning; all I remember is what I read many years ago in the Surratt Courier. As I recall, Stelnick had Booth working for a group of Northern businessmen plus Judah Benjamin (who was secretly in cahoots with the Northern businessmen). The plan was for Booth to kidnap Lincoln on Easter Sunday, but Booth wrecked the plan by assassinating Lincoln instead. Don't know how accurate my memory is, but that's what I recall.

[John Fazio]

(07-01-2015 11:01 AM)Wild Bill Wrote:  Buy it, John. As a retired attorney, you can afford it, I dare say. Stop relying on others to do your homework. He basically looks at the Lincoln assassination through the eyes of an Alabama man from unseceded Winston County (home of the 1st Ala Union Cavalry, Sherman's bodyguard in the March to the Sea) who acted as a spy for Grant, gave Booth his derringer in Montgomery (why he had only one instead of the usual pair), was familiar with Texas Unionists like AJ Hamilton, was familiar with the so-called New York faction which competed with Booth for the assassination (I believe it was Atzerodt who mentioned them), and looks at the Old Dutch and European Netherlands financial connections to the American Civil War. It is as outlandish as your book, and he is as positive he is correct as you are. You will love and despise him at the same time--you know, sort of like you and me.

Wild Bill:

Let me correct a couple of misstatements: 1) I do not rely upon others to do my homework, unless you feel that reading the works of others on the subject of April 14 (part or all of about 125 books) is that. I see no harm or anything unethical in mining the works of others (they were, after all, written to be read), as long as they are not simply regurgitated, but supplemented with original material and/or re-interpreted in the light of evidence, reason and an understanding of human nature. 2) My book is not outlandish; it is a fine work of scholarship, the result of five years of research and writing, well spoken of by almost all who have thus far read it, though some have said the detail makes it a heavy read. "I would rather be right than President".

It WAS Atzerodt who mentioned the New York crowd, in his confession of May 1 (Joan Chaconas's find), and nothing he said about them can be reasonably interpreted by any sane person as referring to kidnapping, another nail in the coffin of the Great Kidnapping Myth.

I cannot speak for you, but let me say to you and the world that I do not despise you, not even close. Actually, I find you very funny, and humor endears me to just about everyone and anyone. I would be endeared to even a Nazi if he made me laugh. Laughter is the universal tonic for all ills. I'll bet that's how that honeytalking John Parker got out of all his scrapes.

I'll read the book, but I have to say that threatening Laurie is like threatening the Pope. Bad form.

John

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(07-01-2015 02:45 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  I have not read Dixie Reckoning; all I remember is what I read many years ago in the Surratt Courier. As I recall, Stelnick had Booth working for a group of Northern businessmen plus Judah Benjamin (who was secretly in cahoots with the Northern businessmen). The plan was for Booth to kidnap Lincoln on Easter Sunday, but Booth wrecked the plan by assassinating Lincoln instead. Don't know how accurate my memory is, but that's what I recall.

Roger:

Good to hear from you.

I have to read Stelnick's book before commenting on it, except for the business about kidnapping. You have heard me say it before, but let me repeat it for anyone who may have missed it: BOOTH NEVER INTENDED TO KIDNAP ANYONE. I would detail the proof, but Laurie would not like another tome in this medium.

John

[L Verge]

(07-01-2015 02:57 PM)John Fazio Wrote:  

(07-01-2015 11:01 AM)Wild Bill Wrote:  Buy it, John. As a retired attorney, you can afford it, I dare say. Stop relying on others to do your homework. He basically looks at the Lincoln assassination through the eyes of an Alabama man from unseceded Winston County (home of the 1st Ala Union Cavalry, Sherman's bodyguard in the March to the Sea) who acted as a spy for Grant, gave Booth his derringer in Montgomery (why he had only one instead of the usual pair), was familiar with Texas Unionists like AJ Hamilton, was familiar with the so-called New York faction which competed with Booth for the assassination (I believe it was Atzerodt who mentioned them), and looks at the Old Dutch and European Netherlands financial connections to the American Civil War. It is as outlandish as your book, and he is as positive he is correct as you are. You will love and despise him at the same time--you know, sort of like you and me.

Wild Bill:

Let me correct a couple of misstatements: 1) I do not rely upon others to do my homework, unless you feel that reading the works of others on the subject of April 14 (part or all of about 125 books) is that. I see no harm or anything unethical in mining the works of others (they were, after all, written to be read), as long as they are not simply regurgitated, but supplemented with original material and/or re-interpreted in the light of evidence, reason and an understanding of human nature. 2) My book is not outlandish; it is a fine work of scholarship, the result of five years of research and writing, well spoken of by almost all who have thus far read it, though some have said the detail makes it a heavy read. "I would rather be right than President".

It WAS Atzerodt who mentioned the New York crowd, in his confession of May 1 (Joan Chaconas's find), and nothing he said about them can be reasonably interpreted by any sane person as referring to kidnapping, another nail in the coffin of the Great Kidnapping Myth.

I cannot speak for you, but let me say to you and the world that I do not despise you, not even close. Actually, I find you very funny, and humor endears me to just about everyone and anyone. I would be endeared to even a Nazi if he made me laugh. Laughter is the universal tonic for all ills. I'll bet that's how that honeytalking John Parker got out of all his scrapes.

I'll read the book, but I have to say that threatening Laurie is like threatening the Pope. Bad form.

John

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(07-01-2015 02:45 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  I have not read Dixie Reckoning; all I remember is what I read many years ago in the Surratt Courier. As I recall, Stelnick had Booth working for a group of Northern businessmen plus Judah Benjamin (who was secretly in cahoots with the Northern businessmen). The plan was for Booth to kidnap Lincoln on Easter Sunday, but Booth wrecked the plan by assassinating Lincoln instead. Don't know how accurate my memory is, but that's what I recall.

Roger:

Good to hear from you.

I have to read Stelnick's book before commenting on it, except for the business about kidnapping. You have heard me say it before, but let me repeat it for anyone who may have missed it: BOOTH NEVER INTENDED TO KIDNAP ANYONE. I would detail the proof, but Laurie would not like another tome in this medium.

John

If it is the current Pope that I am being classified with, that's okay. The previous one would have me challenging you to a duel! My apologies if I have offended anyone.

I can also handle another tome on your beliefs that the kidnap scheme did not exist (at least Booth's version of it) because that's one of the hazards of my job. However, if you outline your reasons here, your publisher will admonish you for hurting sales of your book.

I hope that you are sincere in enjoying Bill's wry sense of humor (and not saying it as ridicule). Bill and I argue all the time and manage to remain friends. I consider him one of the wisest historians that I know and one who doesn't give a darn about political correctness - just the facts, ma'am. When he knocks me down with book titles, quotes, page citations, etc., I know to behave myself. Is he an ornery old cuss? Yep, and enjoys the moniker.

[Wild Bill]

John,

"I would rather be right than President".

I remind you that Henry Clay was neither.

I surely hope that you are not comparing me to a Nazi. My father would not return to Germany in the 1930s from Latin America and came to the USA because part of his side of the family was Jewish. Be careful.

And while you may have read 125 books for your research, you missed a great many, especially articles easily accessed, including everything written by either Rick Smith or me or both of us, many which handled your topics. But then, I suppose none of them were up to your high standards.

Bill

[John Fazio]

(07-01-2015 03:55 PM)Wild Bill Wrote:  John,

"I would rather be right than President".

I remind you that Henry Clay was neither.

I surely hope that you are not comparing me to a Nazi. My father would not return to Germany in the 1930s from Latin America and came to the USA because part of his side of the family was Jewish. Be careful.

And while you may have read 125 books for your research, you missed a great many, especially articles easily accessed, including everything written by either Rick Smith or me or both of us, many which handled your topics. But then, I suppose none of them were up to your high standards.

Bill

Wild Bill:

No way was I making such a comparison. I was merely trying to illustrate the value of humor, so I chose the worst I.D. I could think of to make my point. Maybe ISIS and the Taliban are worse. I do not recall that the Nazis destroyed ancient ruins and cultural artifacts, the common heritage of all mankind. As for Jews, the only reason ISIS and the Taliban haven't murdered 6 million of them is because they can't get their hands on them. I have a great, great Uncle Isadore, by the way. Though outwardly Christian, it was said that he disappeared on Friday evenings and did not reappear until Saturday night. No one knew where he went.

John

[L Verge]

It has been awhile since we've heard from John Fazio. I suspect that he's basking in the limelight from the great reviews that Decapitating the Union has been getting on Amazon, Goodreads, and other sites. Congratulations, John. Your hard work and years of research are paying off.

[Eva Elisabeth]

While I don't agree with all conclusions I, too, say kudos to the research and appreciate the elaborate compilation and wealth of sources and thoughts on all topics/keywords assassination.

[HerbS]

John Fazio's book was a tremendous read!