Did Robert Lincoln Ride the Funeral Train to Baltimore?

[LincolnToddFan]

I still think Mary Harlan was wrong.

If I disliked my mother-in-law so much that even death couldn't resolve my petty hate, I would simply have arranged that my coffin not be buried anywhere near hers in the Tomb. I would not have overridden my husband's expectation, expressed explicitly in writing, that he would be interred in the grand Lincoln Tomb with his birth family. Despite the fact that Robert was not as close to his parents as his siblings he took great pride in his father and his family name.

When Jack died he made a point to bring him all the way to Springfield...to the LINCOLN TOMB. Why would he do that? And how dare Mary disinter him after Robert had already lain the boy to rest?? Robert lived a very long time, past the age of eighty. That is plenty of time for he and Mary to have discussed alternative burial arrangements. Apparently Robert did not have an alternative wish so Mary came up with one when he was no longer in a position to oppose her. Spouses who love one another don't normally do such a thing.

She allegedly wanted to give Robert his "place in the sun" but she achieved just the opposite. Most people don't even notice his gravesite on the way to view JFK's.

If Mary Harlan had died before Robert, there is no doubt in my mind that her remains would now be at the Lincoln Tomb, at the side of her husband.

[LincolnToddFan]

I would definitely want to be interred next to a beloved spouse. But the Lincoln Tomb is not exactly a cramped little space. MHL could have chosen a separate area within that rather large edifice for her little family.

I would simply never ever disregard my spouse's burial instructions, no matter what I wanted. Robert, by his own admission, suffered a lot of pain in Washington D.C. Now he is there for eternity.

I guess I have little sympathy for Mary Harlan because I have never disliked anyone in my family that much. I don't understand antipathy/bitterness that even death does not resolve. Maybe if I'd experienced it I'd feel differently.

[L Verge]

I tend to agree with Toia on this one. I know very little about Mary Harlan, but I do remember reading that she would run home to her parents when things got tough. I think that I have also read that Mary Lincoln loved her and was generous with her. It doesn't seem to me that Mary Harlan had issues with being buried near her mother-in-law; the "place in the sun" comment appears to have stemmed from her jealousy of Abraham's legacy that left Robert standing in the shade.

A similar situation occurred in my own family. Great-grandfather Huntt (that you've heard me talk about ad nauseum) had one son and three daughters (all of whom married). The son went on to be a medical doctor and married into a well-to-do family. Even though the whole family got along well, when the time came to bury Uncle Joe, Aunt Naomi took him to a prestigious cemetery in D.C. - Rock Creek The family's private cemetery that had been established in 1858 wasn't good enough.

It happened again in the next generation, when Mr. Huntt's last daughter (my grandmother) had only a son and daughter to survive to adulthood. The son's wife did not feel that the family cemetery was up to her standards (I see that it is well-maintained to this day!), so she had him buried in her church's graveyard in her family's plot. Then, she refused to put a tombstone at his grave, so his name was shown nowhere until she died twenty years later. And yet, she claimed to have loved him.

Having never been to the Lincoln Tomb, I have one question - how close to their parents are Eddie, Willie, and Tad buried? At their sides?

[LincolnToddFan]

Hi Laurie,

Unfortunately I've never visited the Tomb in person but I have taken "virtual tours" online. Abraham Lincoln is, of course, encased in a cement block about a foot behind the large red marker bearing his name.

Mary is in the South Wall directly opposite, surrounded by the three boys. I have to believe she would not have been pleased. Her letters from 1865 onward express a longing to lie NEXT to "him...the Worshipped One" for eternity. Which is exactly where she was until Robert came up with his infamous Concrete Plan in 1901.

That's a very sad story about your Huntt ancestors.

BTW..I've never thought much about the idea that Mary Harlan might have been jealous of her legendary father-in-law's influence and fame not being shared by her husband. I think you have a point.

[HerbS]

Family Dynamics can be tough,even after a death in a family!Sometimes there is no mercy on both sides of a family.

[L Verge]

(05-03-2015 09:56 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Hi Laurie,

Unfortunately I've never visited the Tomb in person but I have taken "virtual tours" online. Abraham Lincoln is, of course, encased in a cement block about a foot behind the large red marker bearing his name.

Mary is in the South Wall directly opposite, surrounded by the three boys. I have to believe she would not have been pleased. Her letters from 1865 onward express a longing to lie NEXT to "him...the Worshipped One" for eternity. Which is exactly where she was until Robert came up with his infamous Concrete Plan in 1901.

That's a very sad story about your Huntt ancestors.

BTW..I've never thought much about the idea that Mary Harlan might have been jealous of her legendary father-in-law's influence and fame not being shared by her husband. I think you have a point.

Well, now I dislike Robert even more for separating his father and mother. Even though the marriage vows do say, "Til death do us part," I don't think he should have parted them that much! Can we hire a medium to channel Mr. Lincoln and his thoughts on this burial situation? Somehow, I think he would want his wife and his sons closer to him.

[LincolnToddFan]

In Kunhardt's "Looking for Lincoln" it states that both MTL and her husband are in the cement block together.

But I think that's a mistake...they aren't.

[HerbS]

I have always felt that RTL had his OWN agenda!

[RJNorton]

(05-03-2015 10:54 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  In Kunhardt's "Looking for Lincoln" it states that both MTL and her husband are in the cement block together.

But I think that's a mistake...they aren't.

Right! On p. 362 it says, "Finally Lincoln and Mary were sealed into their concrete tomb and covered by cement." I wish there was (were?) a footnote for that statement. That is certainly not what I have read elsewhere.

[loetar44]

(05-03-2015 09:01 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  If Mary Harlan had died before Robert, there is no doubt in my mind that her remains would now be at the Lincoln Tomb, at the side of her husband.

I never completely understood why the both Mary Lincolns (Mary Todd Lincoln & Mary Harlan Lincoln) could not live together. MTL was unquestionably a difficult woman , but I think MHL was difficult too. In the beginning MTL corresponded regularly and affectionately with MHL. But, after the marriage, something happened, but what exactly has never been determined. However, from that day on the both Mary’s could not stand each other anymore. MHL made it very clear that she would never return (in the same house) to her mother-in-law. After MTL was dead for forty years, MHL denied any animosity between them. She even told biographer Katherine Helm that she loved her mother-in-law, thus sanitizing the record for historians. But it is my strong belief that actions speak louder than words and I believe that MTL was never really a part of MHL’s life and in return MHL was never really a part of MTL's. In life no house was large enough for two Mary Lincolns. In death no tomb would be large enough for two Mary Lincolns. RTL must have known this.

[Gene C]

This conflict between Mary and Mary kind of reminds me of a song

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r93hIW9v3mI

[LincolnToddFan]

(05-04-2015 05:09 AM)loetar44 Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 09:01 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  If Mary Harlan had died before Robert, there is no doubt in my mind that her remains would now be at the Lincoln Tomb, at the side of her husband.

I never completely understood why the both Mary Lincolns (Mary Todd Lincoln & Mary Harlan Lincoln) could not live together. MTL was unquestionably a difficult woman , but I think MHL was difficult too. In the beginning MTL corresponded regularly and affectionately with MHL. But, after the marriage, something happened, but what exactly has never been determined. However, from that day on the both Mary’s could not stand each other anymore. MHL made it very clear that she would never return (in the same house) to her mother-in-law. After MTL was dead for forty years, MHL denied any animosity between them. She even told biographer Katherine Helm that she loved her mother-in-law, thus sanitizing the record for historians. But it is my strong belief that actions speak louder than words and I believe that MTL was never really a part of MHL’s life and in return MHL was never really a part of MTL's. In life no house was large enough for two Mary Lincolns. In death no tomb would be large enough for two Mary Lincolns. RTL must have known this.

Perfectly stated Kees. MTL was (famously) domineering and self-absorbed. I've read rumors that she offended MHL by bossing around her servants. But would something like that cause such a serious rift? MHL sound passive-aggressive and spoiled. I kind of feel for RTL, stuck between these two women.

But as for the burial project, I still agree that Laurie's theory of why MHL rejected Oak Ridge in favor of Arlington makes the most sense.

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(05-04-2015 05:09 AM)loetar44 Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 09:01 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  If Mary Harlan had died before Robert, there is no doubt in my mind that her remains would now be at the Lincoln Tomb, at the side of her husband.

I never completely understood why the both Mary Lincolns (Mary Todd Lincoln & Mary Harlan Lincoln) could not live together. MTL was unquestionably a difficult woman , but I think MHL was difficult too. In the beginning MTL corresponded regularly and affectionately with MHL. But, after the marriage, something happened, but what exactly has never been determined. However, from that day on the both Mary’s could not stand each other anymore. MHL made it very clear that she would never return (in the same house) to her mother-in-law. After MTL was dead for forty years, MHL denied any animosity between them. She even told biographer Katherine Helm that she loved her mother-in-law, thus sanitizing the record for historians. But it is my strong belief that actions speak louder than words and I believe that MTL was never really a part of MHL’s life and in return MHL was never really a part of MTL's. In life no house was large enough for two Mary Lincolns. In death no tomb would be large enough for two Mary Lincolns. RTL must have known this.

Perfectly stated Kees. MTL was (famously) domineering and self-absorbed. I've read rumors that she offended MHL by bossing around her servants. But would something like that cause such a serious rift? MHL sound passive-aggressive and spoiled. I kind of feel for RTL, stuck between these two women.

But as for the burial project, I still agree that Laurie's theory of why MHL rejected Oak Ridge in favor of Arlington makes the most sense.

[Juan Marrero]

I understand the security concerns, but it seems sad that AL is encased in cement. Not meaning to be morbid, but such a heavy load might, one would think, crush whatever lies underneath. RTL engaged in "overkill" here.

I read in several books that MTL had some objection to what she saw as too much reliance on spirits (the bottled kind) by MHL; for all we know, MHL might have felt MTL over-relied on spirits too (the summoned kind). Unreconcialble differences.

As an aisde, we drove to D.C. this weekend to view the "Silent Witness" and Lincoln Barouche exhibits. Mary's coat and the barouche looked hardly a year old. Impressive that the hardware on the barouche is solid silver. Did Mary ride home on that same coach to the White House the next morning?

[RJNorton]

(05-04-2015 07:39 AM)Juan Marrero Wrote:  Did Mary ride home on that same coach to the White House the next morning?

That's an excellent question, Juan. I do not think I have ever seen anything specific on this; usually what is said is something like "a carriage arrived to take Mary and Robert back to the White House." Many books have her looking across to Ford's and saying, "That dreadful house - that dreadful house!" I don't think I've ever even read the name of the driver of the coach that took Robert and Mary to the White House.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Truth to be told I feel a bit frustrated as I tried to make the same points as Kees did but received opposition.

Toia, re. the "rumors that she offended MHL by bossing around her servants", please go here to the bottom of p. 157 and the top of the following page:
https://books.google.de/books?id=3XLTAAA...CA4Q6AEwAQ
I had posted that already yesterday, but this morning decided to withdraw.