Did Robert Lincoln Ride the Funeral Train to Baltimore?

[Eva Elisabeth]

(01-12-2015 10:10 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  I wonder why RTL gave him the vault keys instead of keeping them himself?

Since Robert was about to live in Chicago I suppose he left the key in Springfield in case something happens that requires immediate access (e.g. a fire). Plus J.T.S. wasn't only a relative but also a lawyer and would know what cases would justify to use it.

[loetar44]

(01-13-2015 06:53 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(01-12-2015 10:10 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Wasn't John Todd Stuart a cousin of Mary's?

Hi Toia. Yes, indeed! Please see Donna's post here.

John Todd Stuart was a 1st cousin to Mary Todd Lincoln. He was the son of a Presbyterian minister (Rev Robert Stuart) and Mary’s aunt (Hannah Todd). Mary Todd Lincoln and John Todd Stuart had the same grandparents (Levi David Todd and Jane Logan Briggs). So RTL was a 1st cousin once removed (1C1R) to John Todd Stuart.

[Eva Elisabeth]

(01-13-2015 08:45 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  

(01-12-2015 10:10 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  I wonder why RTL gave him the vault keys instead of keeping them himself?

Since Robert was about to live in Chicago I suppose he left the key in Springfield in case something happens that requires immediate access (e.g. a fire). Plus J.T.S. wasn't only a relative but also a lawyer and would know what cases would justify to use it.

Another reason - the key was in Springfield at any time a close friend or relative came to visit the grave.

[loetar44]

(01-11-2015 05:42 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(01-11-2015 05:24 PM)loetar44 Wrote:  Additional question: where was Tad? Was he with RTL or with his mother in the White House?

I think Tad stayed back with Mary. Dr. Wayne C. Temple writes, "That evening (May 3), Capt. Robert T. Lincoln arrived (in Springfield), accompanied by John George Nicolay, Lincoln's secretary. They were close friends. Robert immediately went to the residence of John Todd Stuart where he had been invited to stay."

Just read that early Lincoln biographer Josiah G. Holland wrote in his “Life of Abraham Lincoln” (published 1866) on p. 534: “ By the side of it placed the coffin of ‘little Willie;’ while the living sons, Robert and Thomas, standing by the tomb, were objects of an affectionate interest only equaled by the deep sorrow for their own and their country’s loss". This indicates that Tad was not in Washington.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/l/lincoln2/abx...e&size=100

   

[RJNorton]

I would be curious as to the source. Kees, if true, a lot of books are then wrong. I have read many times that Robert was the only immediate family member to attend. For example, in Twenty Days, the Kunhardts write, "Other than Robert, Lincoln's only blood relative present that day was his cousin, John Hanks..."

[Eva Elisabeth]

Interesting find, Kees. Like Roger I'd like to know his source as I've always only read of Robert attending the funeral. So Mary would have remained alone in the White House?
I've always wanted to read Holland's Lincoln bio, thanks for this reminder, Kees!
Here's an interesting article about Holland and his bio:
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jala/2629860...q1=holland

[HerbS]

Hey,we all must prove our sources.Sometimes things are very difficult to prove!

[STS Lincolnite]

(01-24-2015 07:17 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  So Mary would have remained alone in the White House?

I agree on the need for a definitive and credible source for Tad being there as it disagrees with everything else I have read. I may be influenced by my gut feeling which tells me that there is no way Mary would have let Tad out her site.

[loetar44]

(01-24-2015 08:23 PM)STS Lincolnite Wrote:  

(01-24-2015 07:17 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  So Mary would have remained alone in the White House?

I agree on the need for a definitive and credible source for Tad being there as it disagrees with everything else I have read. I may be influenced by my gut feeling which tells me that there is no way Mary would have let Tad out her site.

I agree with you, Scott (and the others) and also am asking: what was Holland’s source? Thanks for the link Eva! Remember that Holland published his words in 1866 and all other accounts are dated later, so maybe his account is true. I personally tend to believe as a possibility that Tad accepted the situation and maybe realized that he was obliged to be there, though his mother struggled with overwhelming emotions and did not want that. After all it was the funeral of his father ! Of course contemporary local newspapers reported the funeral in full detail and if Robert and Tad were indeed there, the papers of Springfield would have mentioned that. Maybe an idea to check that and put that on your list too Scott, when you are visiting Springfield and a newspaper repository. I understood from your earlier post that you are planning a visit next month.

BTW. Doing research on the net I came across this very interesting article:

http://illinoistimes.com/mobile/articles...w/id:14079

[RJNorton]

Regarding newspapers, here are a few possibilities.

Dr. Wayne C. Temple writes, "To the left of the Vault's gates had been erected a platform for the speakers and the press. To the right was one for the choir singers. Robert T. Lincoln - the only member of the President's immediate family who attended the services - took a seat near the open door of the Vault. Other dignitaries were seated nearby."

Two newspapers are footnoted:

Chicago Tribune May 6, 1865 p. 2 c. 4
and
New York Herald, May 5, 1865 p. 1 c. 3

Also, the information could be in one of the editions of the Illinois Daily State Journal for early May, 1865. Lots of Dr. Temple's footnotes regarding Lincoln's Springfield funeral refer to editions of that paper May 4, 1865 - May 8, 1865.

[STS Lincolnite]

Hopefully the weather (and my job) will be kind and I will make it over to Springfield in the next few weeks. Kees and Roger, I will add these to the list of things to look up!!

[loetar44]

I'm trying to build a picture of the funeral and the exact order in which things happened. Does anyone know which coffin was placed first in the vault, Willie’s or Lincoln’s? Thanks Scott, for your help!

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(01-13-2015 03:32 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  

(01-13-2015 08:45 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  

(01-12-2015 10:10 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  I wonder why RTL gave him the vault keys instead of keeping them himself?

Since Robert was about to live in Chicago I suppose he left the key in Springfield in case something happens that requires immediate access (e.g. a fire). Plus J.T.S. wasn't only a relative but also a lawyer and would know what cases would justify to use it.

Another reason - the key was in Springfield at any time a close friend or relative came to visit the grave.

I wonder, was the vault not only closed, but also sealed?

[Eva Elisabeth]

Kees, please forgive this stupid question - why should the vault have been sealed if it was locked? Wasn't it still family property? And why sould the family more than lock the door? The only reason that comes to my mind right now ito seal a places sealing sites of crimes during investigations.

[STS Lincolnite]

A couple of thoughts.

Kees, when you speak of "the vault" are you talking about the receiving vault or the temporary tomb?

The receiving vault would not have been sealed as it was only temporary storage for the deceased before moving to their final interment space.

I am not sure about the temporary vault/tomb that Lincoln was in before his final interment in the permanent tomb. Sealing the tomb, from what I understand, is typically done for security (and maybe to help protect against weathering depending on location). To provide more protection from desecration or grave robbery. It would certainly provide more protection that a lock which could be broken. And with what we know in retrospect about attempts to steal Lincoln's body, it would have been wise.

[loetar44]

Thanks Eva for your remark, but grave robbery, maybe it’s better to speak here of vault robbing was not an uncommon practise in the 19th century. Not in the first place to steal Lincoln’s or Willie’s corpse but to steal artifacts, personal effects or other objects. Body snatching (by "resurrectionists" or "resurrection-men”) was even common purpose, to sell the corpse for dissection or anatomy lectures in medical schools. Remember that the body of Ohio congressman John Scott Harrison, son of president William Henry Harrison, was snatched in 1878 and sold to the Ohio Medical College, where it was discovered by his son president Benjamin Harrison. I know that Lincoln’s vault was guarded, but not all the time and not for years. So, I think it is not unrealistic to think that “certain men” could steal something out of the vault and sell it, simply by unlocking the door with a false key or so, and locking it again after stealing some objects. Or they could break the lock. So, I thought that “locking alone” was not sufficient, that more protection was necessary, because it was Abraham Lincoln, who rested in the vault. Just a thought.

Scott, I thought of the receiving vault in the first place, but it also goes for the temporary vault.