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JB Banning · 11-27-2013, 01:05 PM

(11-27-2013 08:06 AM)Gene C Wrote: What is the estimate on the length of time from when Lincoln was shot until he was taken out of the theater? 15 minutes?

Gene,

Dr. Leale said in less than 20 minutes after he was shot that Lincoln was placed in the bed in the Petersen house.

Joe

11-27-2013, 06:32 PM

(11-27-2013 09:10 AM)J. Beckert Wrote: I agree, it's strange and I don't know what to make of it. At one point however, to explain all the "sorry stains" on her, she had to be in contact with Lincoln or Rathbone. It's been said Lincoln was carried out on a shutter, so someone had to support his head. Maybe she was allowed to do this for a short time and used the flag to do so?

Maybe, just maybe, Miss Keene seized on the publicity value of having Lincoln's blood on her dress and she went back to the empty theater box, put her hands in the remaining blood, and then wiped her bloody hands on her dress.
Didn't she show off her bloody dress onstage at several of her theater appearances over the next few weeks???

HerbS · 11-27-2013, 07:29 PM

The part of the "flag ordeal"that irks me the most is.When I went to observe the display a few years ago at the Bloomfield,NY Historical Society.The Pike County Historical Society charged $2000 for the display! Rip-off ??????

11-28-2013, 04:28 AM

(11-27-2013 07:29 PM)HerbS Wrote: The part of the "flag ordeal"that irks me the most is.When I went to observe the display a few years ago at the Bloomfield,NY Historical Society.The Pike County Historical Society charged $2000 for the display! Rip-off ??????

Possibly the $2,000 was needed for the cost of moving and special insurance coverage?

RJNorton · 11-28-2013, 05:06 AM

(11-27-2013 06:32 PM)Hess1865 Wrote:
(11-27-2013 09:10 AM)J. Beckert Wrote: I agree, it's strange and I don't know what to make of it. At one point however, to explain all the "sorry stains" on her, she had to be in contact with Lincoln or Rathbone. It's been said Lincoln was carried out on a shutter, so someone had to support his head. Maybe she was allowed to do this for a short time and used the flag to do so?

Maybe, just maybe, Miss Keene seized on the publicity value of having Lincoln's blood on her dress and she went back to the empty theater box, put her hands in the remaining blood, and then wiped her bloody hands on her dress.
Didn't she show off her bloody dress onstage at several of her theater appearances over the next few weeks???

Mr. Hess, I read a similar account in a book one time. I cannot recall which book, though. The author made the claim that the whole thing was a publicity stunt to revive a fading stage career. Although my personal opinion is that this may be a stretch, I do find it curious that she made no public comment on her role. As Joe Banning posted (from Dr. Reck's book), "No statement from Miss Keene about the alleged occurrence has been seen." I agree with Laurie that Dr. Reck's book is excellent, and if Dr. Reck could not find a statement by Laura Keene regarding what she did that night then I really doubt one exists. I continue to lean to Clara Harris's account.

Gene C · 11-28-2013, 07:52 AM

If they threw a lot of the cast and crew in prison, and they confiscated Ford's Theater, this is probably a time when you want to get as much distance away from JWB as possible and limit any involvement (however innocent) in Lincoln's assassination. The put a lot of people in jail that had nothing to do with the assassination, and Ms Keene was probably smart enough to know that for the time being, it was best to say as little as possible. No sense in ruining her career due to bad publicity.

Where did many of the actors and crew gather after the President was taken across the street?

BettyO · 11-28-2013, 09:14 AM

They may have been backstage.....I'm still reading Tom Bogar's book....great stuff!

I know that one of the actors, I think Hawk, said that for hours after the assassination that he and others of the cast were still in their costumes and grease paint - don't quote me, but seems I've read that somewhere -

Rsmyth · 11-28-2013, 09:33 AM

Me too Betty. Jeannie Gourlay, her father, sister and brothers gathered at a backstage door. oh, and Bill Withers.
In regards to The Lincoln Flag, Mr. Hess is correct. Most of the cost was for insurance premiums to cover moving and coverage while it was on display away from Milford.

HerbS · 11-28-2013, 02:41 PM

Insurance premiums on my,house,38'boat,and car combined were not that high!It was a way to make$$$$$!

RJNorton · 11-28-2013, 03:19 PM

I know Dr. John Sotos asked the Grand Army of the Republic Museum if he could examine its strip of a pillowcase stained with the blood of Abraham Lincoln. Dr. Sotos wanted to do DNA testing on the blood. However, it didn't happen as Dr. Sotos' request was rejected. He is the doctor who is trying to prove that Lincoln was dying from a rare cancer syndrome called multiple endocrine neoplasia type 2B. Did Dr. Sotos ever approach the Pike County Historical Society about examining the Lincoln flag held there? Anyone know?

Eva Elisabeth · (This post was last modified: 11-28-2013 05:45 PM by Eva Elisabeth.)

Sorry that I harp on about this again - if a DNA test would unexpectedly show that there's only one person's blood on each fragment, and it's also the same person's blood on both the fragments, it would most likely (only) be Rathbone's. Would in this case the fragment of Keene's dress be less attractive and thus less valuable for the owner? I assume, they claim and promote it was Lincoln's blood they display (if it's on display)?!

J. Beckert · (This post was last modified: 11-28-2013 08:24 PM by J. Beckert.)

Keene's cuff is in the collection of the Smithsonian. It's displayed as Laura Keene's bloody cuff from the night of the assassination, purportedly stained with Lincoln's blood. A purported dress fragment is also owned by the Chicago Historical Society. I guess if it were proven to be Rathbone's blood, it would be a little disappointing, but it's still a bloody relic of that night.

http://www.civilwar.si.edu/lincoln_keenecuff.html

http://chicagohistory.org/wetwithblood/b...ments4.htm

Eva Elisabeth · (This post was last modified: 09-10-2014 03:52 PM by Eva Elisabeth.)

(11-26-2013 12:07 PM)RJNorton Wrote: Excellent question, Herb. I still do not know where I stand on Laura Keene's whereabouts as I cannot figure out why Clara Harris was so adamant Keene never entered the State Box at all. We have people who said Keene was in the box, and we have Clara Harris who denies it. Maybe someone can refresh my memory, but right now I am blank on whether or not Keene herself ever went on record and made a specific statement on this matter.

I just read the following on p.226 in "Backstage at the L. Assass.", and was reminded of this discussion:
"Keene, too, refused to discuss the assassination after issuing an initial statement on April 29, which was printed in the 'Clipper' and other newspapers. In it, she restricted herself to narrating her own actions that evening:...heard a call for water, and then made her way...to the president's box, remaining with him until he was carried out."

RJNorton · 12-29-2013, 05:41 AM

I am still on the fence on this. In an interview in 1878 Clara Harris stated, "No, that was a falsehood: Laura Keene did not enter the box from first to last. She might have been with the crowd who were trying to get in at the door, but only a very few were admitted, and she was not among the number." Certainly Clara was in the box and an eyewitness to the goings-on. I just cannot come up with a logical reason why she would deny Keene's presence if she were really there cradling the president's head.

Eva Elisabeth · 12-29-2013, 06:34 AM

I, too, still doubt she held Lincoln's head. It would be interesting to read that article from the "Clipper" to see if she stated such herself, and what exactly she reported.