Does the bloodstained flag still exist? I asked this once, but try again: Has ever any DNA analysis been done of the blood on Clara Harris' and L. Keene's dress fragments? (And the flag, if still existent?) That would show if the blood on both dresses was from the same (Rathbone) or from two different persons. Or if possibly even blood from two different persons stained Keene's dress fragment.

It does, Eva. Here's the best picture I could find.

The blood on the flag tested positive for human blood, but to my knowledge, no DNA tests were ever conducted on any piece of blood evidence.

The flag is in the Pike County Historical Society in Pennsylvania. I agree with Joe that no DNA tests were ever conducted on either of the garments.

Watch a video on the flag. http://www.tbd.com/articles/2011/04/-lin...58681.html

Great picture, Joe! Touching to see. I wonder why no such tests have been conducted. Wouldn't be a big issue, but probably provide answers.

I think the issue, Eva, is finding a reliable source of Lincoln's DNA and taking the chance of possibly defiling that source to conduct a test that may be inconclusive. The Booth family are on the same path with regard to authenticating the vertibrae that were removed during Booth's autopsy. I think that due to the length of time that has passed and the questionable reliability of any DNA sources that may be used, our questions will forever be unanswered. Stinks, don't it?

Even if you have no reliable source of Lincoln's DNA to compare to, you could find out if there was two different people's blood on the garmets, especially on Keene's dress fragment. And no, dried blood is an excellent source, and the DNA would most likely not lose reliability due to the length of time. Just recently, 19 living descendants of a 5000 year old mummy ("Ötzi"), discovered in the Alps, could be found and proved via DNA tests, and AFAIK mainly dried blood from the mummy's wounds was used therefor.

(11-26-2013 06:26 PM)J. Beckert Wrote:  The Laura Keene in the box issue was kicked around here before and one of the things that makes it so confusing is the Clara Harris/ Dr. Leale accounts being polar opposites. Even though Leale's account is from 44 years later, he was not an old man at that time.

Joe, thanks for calling a man of 67 "not old." Some assassination books say that Dr. Leale employed both mouth-to mouth artificial respiration and closed chest cardiac massage. I have had contact with a New Zealand intensivist who feels Leale did not actually use mouth-to-mouth artificial respiration. This doctor gives three main reasons for his opinion: (1) Leale makes no mention of mouth-to mouth artificial respiration in his 1867 report to Congress. Only in 1909, when Leale gave another account, do we first learn of his claim of artificial respiration and a crude form of closed chest cardiac massage. In 1909 Leale was 67 and trying to recall events from 44 years previous. (2) According to this doctor's study of the history of critical care and resuscitation, mouth-to-mouth artificial respiration was totally out of favor as a resuscitation maneuver in 1865. (3) None of the other people who rushed to Lincoln's aid, including the other doctors who arrived in the state box, independently corroborated Leale's claims.

Back in 1995, Dr. Richard A. R. Fraser, writing in "American Heritage," noted that "Leale’s account of the assassination submitted in 1867 made no mention of resuscitation, but in 1909 he delivered an address in New York giving a detailed description of practicing mouth-to-mouth resuscitation on Lincoln after he probed the wound. It is strange that Leale did not include this in his first account, which omitted no other important details of the President’s treatment. I am more inclined to give credence to this earlier version, recorded in Leale’s own hand the day Lincoln died."

All of this is not meant to discredit Dr. Leale and his efforts on Abraham Lincoln's behalf. I certainly consider Dr. Leale a hero. However, it seems as least possible that he did not do everything he claimed to do. I will admit that this doctor's letter to me may be influencing my feeling on the possibility of Laura Keene not really being in the box. If the doctor is right, and Leale embellished on his treatment of Lincoln in his 1909 address, could he also have embellished on who was present in the State Box? I do not know; I simply offer this doctor's opinion to the group as food for thought.

I agree, Roger. The facts are strange. It seems Leale was quiet for 44 years and then let loose in one grand statement. :

What is the estimate on the length of time from when Lincoln was shot until he was taken out of the theater? 15 minutes?

(11-27-2013 07:09 AM)J. Beckert Wrote:  I agree, Roger. The facts are strange. It seems Leale was quiet for 44 years and then let loose in one grand statement. :

Here is a capsule of the research this doctor sent me:

***********************************************

If I can go on to you about M-to-M (because that is what I will be writing about) then the chequered history is:

1. Used by midwives, apparently since antiquity
2. 1732 Re-introduced by Wm Tossach's effective demonstration
3. Mid C18, adopted by Humane Socs, including the late-founded ones in the USA (and endorsed in 1788 by Mass. Humane Soc [HS] and 1791 by Philadelphia HS). Yet
4. 1782. Advised against by [what later became] the Royal HS (London)
5. Condemned, in effect, by French Academy of Sciences, Paris, 1829, after they accepted their commissioned studies findings that all positive pressure ventilation was dangerous
6. 1837 Condemned by the Royal HS also
7. thereafter until "rediscovery" in the 1940s, virtually abandoned and forgotten except among midwives, some obstetricians and some C20 anaesthetists.

So we have CAL fitting in between 6 &7. Hence my surprise and wonderment as to however did he come by such an out-of-favour method of resus, being just medically qualified...

I have heard Dr. Houmes talk about the mouth-to-mouth issue, so I hope he chimes in here. As far as the Laura Keene issue, I still have reservations about her being in the box based on pure female logic. First, as I stated a long time ago, she was really over-stepping social bounds of that time to have the gumption to enter the presidential box and ask to cradle his head - especially when physicians were attempting to resuscitate Lincoln.

Second, Mrs. Lincoln's and Miss Harris's hoop skirts were taking up enough room in that limited space without Laura inserting herself, sitting on the floor (thus taking up more space and making people move around her), and performing no earthly assistance. I just can't imagine that it happened.

I agree, it's strange and I don't know what to make of it. At one point however, to explain all the "sorry stains" on her, she had to be in contact with Lincoln or Rathbone. It's been said Lincoln was carried out on a shutter, so someone had to support his head. Maybe she was allowed to do this for a short time and used the flag to do so?

(11-27-2013 08:42 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 07:09 AM)J. Beckert Wrote:  I agree, Roger. The facts are strange. It seems Leale was quiet for 44 years and then let loose in one grand statement. :

Here is a capsule of the research this doctor sent me:

***********************************************

If I can go on to you about M-to-M (because that is what I will be writing about) then the chequered history is:

1. Used by midwives, apparently since antiquity
2. 1732 Re-introduced by Wm Tossach's effective demonstration
3. Mid C18, adopted by Humane Socs, including the late-founded ones in the USA (and endorsed in 1788 by Mass. Humane Soc [HS] and 1791 by Philadelphia HS). Yet
4. 1782. Advised against by [what later became] the Royal HS (London)
5. Condemned, in effect, by French Academy of Sciences, Paris, 1829, after they accepted their commissioned studies findings that all positive pressure ventilation was dangerous
6. 1837 Condemned by the Royal HS also
7. thereafter until "rediscovery" in the 1940s, virtually abandoned and forgotten except among midwives, some obstetricians and some C20 anaesthetists.

So we have CAL fitting in between 6 &7. Hence my surprise and wonderment as to however did he come by such an out-of-favour method of resus, being just medically qualified...

Thank you very much for posting this info, Roger! That is most interesting! I found it quite amazing and strange when I first read that Dr. Lale did m-t-m ventilation. Despite that the method is mentioned in the Bible in a more metaphorical way (II Kings, 4, 32-35), I read that it was first scientifically developed and established primarily at the coasts to rescue drowned people, and only practiced by specially trained doctors. (And just that a method was known doesn't necessarily mean it was commonly taught and practiced.)

---

As for Laura Keene, that she held Lincoln's head in her lap like Mary Magdalene washed Jesus' feet reminds IMO a bit of a movie. But what I personally find very odd is that jealous Mary allowed a strange woman, famous or not, to do this (and to take over a role for which Mary herself - if any woman despite a nurse - would have been predestined).

Dr. Leale hadn't been out of medical training long when Lincoln was shot, who really knows what he was taught or might have learned to do in emergency life threatening situations. Anything that has a chance of getting the president to breath is worth a try. Based upon the above 7 items of chequered history think about this, how many times have the medical "experts" changed their belief on something as simple as weather you let a baby sleep on its back or its stomach?
(which way is it now?)