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Rick Smith · 12-15-2014, 03:37 PM

Robert James, father of Frank & Jesse, died in California around 1850 and Gene is correct, he was a highly educated Baptist minister.

The white supremacist tag is an easy one to assign to Southerners when feelings run high, but there was plenty to go around from Northerners and Union people as well. Some of Mr. Lincoln's comments regarding blacks could be tagged as racist or supremacist.

A little thoughtfulness is called for, I think, on the issue.

HerbS · 12-15-2014, 04:58 PM

Gene C and Wild Bill,I agree with your opinion 100%.

Jim Garrett · 12-15-2014, 08:38 PM

(12-15-2014 10:38 AM)Don1946 Wrote:
(12-12-2014 08:06 AM)Jim Garrett Wrote: A couple of quick thoughts.....Norfolk was an occupied city, same as New Orleans. While the occupying forces were stringent, they were nothing like Butler. One thing the US Government did to antagonize the citizens of Norfolk was the use of US Colored Troops as part of their occupying forces. This caused an altercation between a leading citizen, Dr. David Minton Wright and the occupying forces. The result was the death of a Union officer and Dr. Wright being hanged.

The James Gang chose to rob one particular bank, partly because Butler and his son-in-law had large deposits there.

Ben Butler had a home in Rockport Massachusetts that is still in the family. The descendants are not well liked by many in the Rockport community.

The account I read on this, by UNC historian William Powell, indicates that Dr. Wright was shouting insults to black Union soldiers patrolling the streets in 1863, and then shot and killed a white Union officer who demanded that he desist. http://ncpedia.org/biography/wright-david-minton Martial law had been imposed, and Wright seemed to resent black soldiers enforcing it. Sounds like he earned his punishment.

Back to Butler, shall Jesse James be our moral standard bearer here?
Regarding Rockport, do today's residents not like the descendants of Ben Butler because of something they are currently doing to annoy their neighbors, or because of some kind of bigotry against their ancestry?
I'm reminded that Ben Butler was elected time and again from his Massachusetts district, was elected governor of Mass (1883-84), was nominated by the Greenback Party for president, and by all accounts was admired as an advocate of progressive policies affecting blacks, women, and civil liberty for all. Isn't that why he is/was unpopular among white Southerners or those sympathetic with their cause?

No doubt, Dr. Wright was guilty of killing the white officer intervening in defense of his colored troops. The point is that the colored troops were posted in Norfolk as a measure to antagonize, bait, humiliate and berate the white citizens of Norfolk. Dr. Wright, by all accounts, a worthy and upstanding citizen of Norfolk had an exemplary record of public service including being on of the few doctors to stay and attend to yellow fever victims in 1855. He was well imbibed from celebrating his birthday and instead of defusing the situation, the issue became more heated. Unfortunate all the way around.

As to the Butler descendants in Rockport, not many up there even know the negative reputation of "the beast".

HerbS · 12-16-2014, 06:57 AM

What goes around,comes around!

Linda Anderson · 12-16-2014, 02:31 PM

I don't know what your source about the Rockport Butlers is, Jim, but I wonder what their reaction would be if, say, one of their kids does some research on the forum and reads your comment.

I know that there are strong points of views on this forum but can we stick to the historical figures when expressing these views?

Jim Garrett · 12-16-2014, 03:39 PM

(12-16-2014 02:31 PM)Linda Anderson Wrote: I don't know what your source about the Rockport Butlers is, Jim, but I wonder what their reaction would be if, say, one of their kids does some research on the forum and reads your comment.

I know that there are strong points of views on this forum but can we stick to the historical figures when expressing these views?

Point well taken.

HerbS · 12-16-2014, 04:48 PM

My source is my grand-father's diary and he feels that Butler and Banks were poor leaders of the troops.So no offense here Linda!

Linda Anderson · (This post was last modified: 12-16-2014 05:12 PM by Linda Anderson.)

(12-16-2014 04:48 PM)HerbS Wrote: My source is my grand-father's diary and he feels that Butler and Banks were poor leaders of the troops.So no offense here Linda!

Hi Herb, I'm not concerned with what is said about Butler, or Banks for that matter, but about what is said about Butler's descendants now living in Rockport. I think they should be off limits.

HerbS · (This post was last modified: 12-16-2014 06:34 PM by HerbS.)

I agree 100% Linda.Thanks!

Jim Garrett · 12-16-2014, 07:32 PM

Linda is absolutely correct and I forward my apologies for my post.

Linda Anderson · (This post was last modified: 12-16-2014 08:24 PM by Linda Anderson.)

(12-16-2014 07:32 PM)Jim Garrett Wrote: Linda is absolutely correct and I forward my apologies for my post.

Thanks, Jim.

Don1946 · 12-17-2014, 01:04 PM

(12-15-2014 03:37 PM)Rick Smith Wrote: Robert James, father of Frank & Jesse, died in California around 1850 and Gene is correct, he was a highly educated Baptist minister.

The white supremacist tag is an easy one to assign to Southerners when feelings run high, but there was plenty to go around from Northerners and Union people as well. Some of Mr. Lincoln's comments regarding blacks could be tagged as racist or supremacist.

A little thoughtfulness is called for, I think, on the issue.

Rick, I gather you concede that Jesse James was a violent murderer and robber? But you are concerned that he is unfairly branded as a pro-slavery white supremacist? I don't think there is any debate over which side he was on, is there? According to Stiles, who was cited earlier as an authority, he and his gang were aligned with the Klan, wore hoods, repudiated emancipation, shot blacks on sight. Lincoln's views on race, James's father's piety, or northern attitudes on race are completely irrelevant to this matter.

Do you really want to defend Jesse James?!

I'm curious why so many posters who seem hostile to Lincoln's ideals and so eager to vindicate the Confederacy are drawn to this forum. Am I alone in finding this strange?

Rsmyth · 12-17-2014, 01:26 PM

The original topic of this thread was Butler and his actions during and after the war. I would like to ask the board members to compare Butler to his counterpart in the Confederacy - Nathan Bedford Forrest.

Don, in part, Lincoln owes his fame to being president during the Civil War which I believe was a direct result of the raid on Harpers Ferry. I would love to discuss John Brown here but the answers would be quite predictable.

Don1946 · 12-17-2014, 01:48 PM

Great! Let's go from Jesse James to Nathan Bedford Forrest, another Confederate hero, slave trader, founder of the KKK, commanding officer at the Fort Pillow massacre.

Why should this forum be given over to these subjects? Am I alone in finding these neo-Confederate discussions tiresome and pointless?

Let's keep this forum to talk about Lincoln, his life, his presidency, and what he stood for, not give it over to defending historical figures who despised him and everything he stood for. There are many other sites on the web to vent those points of view. Here, as they said in 1861, We are Lincoln Men (and women!)

Onward

Gene C · (This post was last modified: 12-17-2014 02:01 PM by Gene C.)

Don, you are not alone, but I didn't read into Rick's comment what you did. It is a subject with many facets, and some of the posts can be easily misunderstood or misinterpreted. I've made the mistake of misreading someone's comments.

The war brought out the best and worst in peoples character, north and south. It was the Pinkerton's detectives (protecting northern interest in banks and railroads) that bombed the James's home and killed Jesse's half brother and almost killed his mother. http://www.history.com/this-day-in-histo...es-mother. Neither side, north or south, was innocent.