I know this has been discussed a lot and there have been great books about it like Conroy's, but I'm still very confused.

The multiple names and positions, formally and informally, held by the staff are hard to sort out. Is there a way to access online the personnel files? I know some of the info is reported in the Collected Works and other areas. (Btw, does anyone know if there is a planned update to the Collected Works?) But some of it is very confusing.

For example, who was steward? There was the original one Mary fired, and Edmund Bourke, and maybe Edward Burke as well, although I think he was actually a coachman and they are confusing him with Bourke. Then there's Cuthbert and Stackpole. Then there was Mary acting as stewardess. And was Watt's wife a stewardess also at one point?

Who were the gardeners, once Watt left? It seems one was a holdover from Buchanan. But then Mary writes to Williamson after Lincoln's death and appears to refer to Stackpole as being an ex-gardener, although the exchange is kind of confusing. She then later says she begs to remembered to the gardeners, who are all her friends.

What on earth happened with Edward McManus, and was he also the one known as Jimmy, or were they different? French didn't fire him for months afterward.

For many of these people, I can find references to them in newspapers at the time. Obituaries, or the obituary of a family member. Advertisements for them at other businesses. Interviews about their time with the Lincolns. Arrest records. But some fall right off the earth, to a rather strange degree. William S. Wood is one of them. Where did he go, after all that? McManus was another.

I'm particularly confused by Mary Ann Cuthbert. How do we know her name is Mary Ann? I assume there is a record somewhere. And wasn't she French? The name doesn't sound French, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. But I can't find a reference to any Cuthberts, male or female, that seem to match up to her or her husband, at any time during or after the war. I currently don't have an active ancestry.com subscription, but I'm not sure if perhaps she's there somewhere. I know Browning wrote about seeing her in 1866, so it seems she was still in DC a while. Mary's letters reference her for a while after Lincoln's death, but the references abruptly end without explanation.

It seems like more telegraphs periodically surface that cover the goings on at the Executive Mansion. Does anyone have good tips as to where more may be found?

With a few notable exceptions, the Lincolns seem to have had really close relationships with their servants. Clara Harris said Mary sent her hellos in the late 1870s I think.

Is there an article about who Johnson decided to keep? I know he kept Slade, and it seems Pendel and Crook. What happened to Aunt Mary? French was also kept around for a while, as was Newton.

Kerry,

While I know absolutely nothing about the White House staff, I can answer your question about the Collected Works. There is no updating planned for the series, given that the state of Illinois is working on the Papers of Abraham Lincoln project. The Collected Works served its purpose, but what the state is trying to do will be the most comprehensive (provided they can pay for it) collection of Lincoln material available.

Best
Rob

(06-05-2018 09:19 AM)Rob Wick Wrote:  Kerry,

While I know absolutely nothing about the White House staff, I can answer your question about the Collected Works. There is no updating planned for the series, given that the state of Illinois is working on the Papers of Abraham Lincoln project. The Collected Works served its purpose, but what the state is trying to do will be the most comprehensive (provided they can pay for it) collection of Lincoln material available.

Best
Rob

Thank you - that makes sense - seems like it may take a while, but it should be great when it's done.

I guess this is in part difficult because many people of the class who left records didn't really recognize servants as people worth mentioning. Then you read the servants' accounts and you realize there was this whole other colorful life going on.

You've probably come across it already, but some of the African-American White House servants were interviewed for the book "They Knew Lincoln."

(06-05-2018 06:52 PM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote:  You've probably come across it already, but some of the African-American White House servants were interviewed for the book "They Knew Lincoln."

Yes, thank you, I did purchase that book. Very interesting, but not a ton of concrete information since they were interviewed so late in the game or were descendants with second-hand stories that are somewhat contradictory. It's interesting that all the people who knew Keckley never spoke about her elsewhere, as she remained active for decades. It's hard to tell if those quoted are remembering correctly, but allegedly she and Mary did exchange letters after the book publication, and they spoke in a "roundabout way" many times that led her to believe Mary had no hard feelings about the book. This could have been a reference to spiritualist communication, or they did have mutual friends like the Bradwells who might have passed on messages. Strangely, Keckley was in Congress the first day Mary's pension was debated. And she said in the late 1870s that she did not believe Mary was insane (or "not more than she ever was"), suggesting she maybe had some insight into her life at that time. It is too bad Slade and Johnson did not live long enough to write their memoirs.

I just finished the manuscript for a book I hope will be published. It is a question/answer format, and one of the questions is about which servants had the most contact with Mary. My information will not answer your question completely, but it will help.

(06-05-2018 11:03 PM)Donna McCreary Wrote:  I just finished the manuscript for a book I hope will be published. It is a question/answer format, and one of the questions is about which servants had the most contact with Mary. My information will not answer your question completely, but it will help.

That sounds really interesting - I look forward to it!

I reactivated my ancestry.com account and actually found answers to a lot of this in government records. The weirdest thing is how frequently people switched jobs - I think a lot of people held jobs in name only and got paid directly or did different jobs than what is on record, for reasons that aren't totally clear, but probably involve typical minor corruption and the need to maintain everything despite the craziness of the war.

The big report in Jan. 1865 was "Jimmy" McManus getting fired after being there since Jackson's time. Edward McManus, according to his family, went by Ned. Idk if he also went by Jimmy, but one person wrote in he was getting confused with Jemmy O'Neal, Jackson's doorkeeper, who had been long since gone. Records do not indicate that he was consistently employed at the White House - he was a doorkeeper during the Pierce administration, and sometimes in a more minor position. So I think that story was largely a press attack. Some years are incomplete so I can't tell for sure (most of the 1860s and early 1870s - then they got serious about records - there are also detailed records from the 50s, but I guess the war derailed that). Her correspondence with Wakeman regarding that issue still baffles me and I'm not sure why it's not mentioned anywhere else. I'm not entirely certain that Edward is who was being referred to, but it would make sense.

I don't know that Cuthbert is officially named anywhere on the payroll, but I did find records of her existing into the 1870s in DC.

There were a ton of grounds staff listed as laborers who were called gardeners.

I still have no idea where William S. Wood went to.

ETA: Thought that just occurred to me. In place of McManus and Burns, Pendel and Dunn/Donn were hired from the police force as ushers/doorkeepers. Pendel claims he was clearly intended as a bodyguard - I forget if Dunn was as well. But Lincoln wanted no fuss and plain clothes, so they seem to have initially posed as ushers. Perhaps this was an intentional deception? And the other doorkeepers were somehow taken care of elsewhere? I don't see Crook mentioned much.

(06-08-2018 05:42 PM)kerry Wrote:  ETA: Thought that just occurred to me. In place of McManus and Burns, Pendel and Dunn/Donn were hired from the police force as ushers/doorkeepers. Pendel claims he was clearly intended as a bodyguard - I forget if Dunn was as well. But Lincoln wanted no fuss and plain clothes, so they seem to have initially posed as ushers. Perhaps this was an intentional deception? And the other doorkeepers were somehow taken care of elsewhere? I don't see Crook mentioned much.

Kerry, I checked to see what names I had regarding the White House policemen, and here's what I found:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

In the fall of 1864 it was decided that a detail of the Washington Metropolitan Police force would be assigned to protect the President. This was at the request of Ward Hill Lamon, United States Marshall for the District of Columbia and a close friend of Lincoln's. Lamon had become increasingly fearful for the President's life. On November 3, 1864, the initial detail was composed of John R. Cronin, Alphonso Dunn (or Donn), Thomas F. Pendel, and Alexander (or Andrew) C. Smith. Changes were occasionally made, although the detail was never more than 5 officers at any one time. Other officers who served in the detail included William S. Lewis, William H. Crook, George W. McElfresh, Thomas T. Hurdle, Joseph Shelton, John F. Parker, and D. Hopkins. Parker was assigned to the detail sometime between late February and early April, 1865.

SOURCE: "The Mystery of Lincoln's Guard" by James O. Hall in the May, 1982, issue of the Surratt Society News, and "Lincoln's Missing Guard" by Frederick Hatch in the April 2006 edition of the Journal of the Lincoln Assassination.

(06-09-2018 04:00 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(06-08-2018 05:42 PM)kerry Wrote:  ETA: Thought that just occurred to me. In place of McManus and Burns, Pendel and Dunn/Donn were hired from the police force as ushers/doorkeepers. Pendel claims he was clearly intended as a bodyguard - I forget if Dunn was as well. But Lincoln wanted no fuss and plain clothes, so they seem to have initially posed as ushers. Perhaps this was an intentional deception? And the other doorkeepers were somehow taken care of elsewhere? I don't see Crook mentioned much.

Kerry, I checked to see what names I had regarding the White House policemen, and here's what I found:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

In the fall of 1864 it was decided that a detail of the Washington Metropolitan Police force would be assigned to protect the President. This was at the request of Ward Hill Lamon, United States Marshall for the District of Columbia and a close friend of Lincoln's. Lamon had become increasingly fearful for the President's life. On November 3, 1864, the initial detail was composed of John R. Cronin, Alphonso Dunn (or Donn), Thomas F. Pendel, and Alexander (or Andrew) C. Smith. Changes were occasionally made, although the detail was never more than 5 officers at any one time. Other officers who served in the detail included William S. Lewis, William H. Crook, George W. McElfresh, Thomas T. Hurdle, Joseph Shelton, John F. Parker, and D. Hopkins. Parker was assigned to the detail sometime between late February and early April, 1865.

SOURCE: "The Mystery of Lincoln's Guard" by James O. Hall in the May, 1982, issue of the Surratt Society News, and "Lincoln's Missing Guard" by Frederick Hatch in the April 2006 edition of the Journal of the Lincoln Assassination.

Thanks! So far, I've only found evidence that Pendel and Dunn were announced in the newspapers, both times specifying they were replacing doorkeepers. Crook was definitely on the payroll for a long time after Lincoln's death, in various high level positions.

One source lists ushers and Sewards:

Richard Goodchild
Usher to James Buchanan, 1859–61
Usher to Abraham Lincoln, 1861

This is the steward Mary fired, but I'm not sure he was a steward.

Jane Watt
“Stewardess” to Abraham Lincoln, 1861–62


Pierre Vermereu
Steward to Abraham Lincoln, 1862 (?)

He was in a ton of administrations and held a ton of positions. I don't recall him being mentioned as a steward.

Mary Ann Cuthbert
Stewardess to Abraham Lincoln, 1862–63

If she still wasn't paid in 1866, that was a long time to go without complaining. She is listed as a housekeeper in directories after 1865, and then became a treasury clerk. She was generally referred to as a housekeeper when she worked for the Lincolns.


Thomas Stackpole
Steward to Abraham Lincoln, 1863–65
Steward to Andrew Johnson, April–June 1865

Stackpole seems to possibly have been steward in name only, but he had worked for several administrations in many positions, while also working outside the government in ships and engineering. He was also in charge of the WH grounds at some point. I am inclined to think the accusations of corruption against him are exaggerated. However, he was reportedly fired for displaying a WH punch bowl in a saloon, and then went into his ship business full time. In early 1866, when he was blamed for the White House plundering, he claimed, "I was appointed steward soon after the death of the late President," which is somewhat confusing, suggesting there had been no steward for some time.

William Slade
Steward to Andrew Johnson, 1865–69

Lincoln enjoyed kidding with the people who worked at the White House. I originally heard this story from Dave Taylor, and it has stuck with me ever since. The story was related by Tom Pendel, and it's in his book titled Thirty-Six Years in the White House.

"On one occasion, President Lincoln, when riding near the Soldiers' Home, said to his footman, named Charles Forbes, who had but recently come from Ireland, "What kind of fruit do you have in Ireland, Charles?" To which Charles replied, "Mr. President, we have a good many kinds of fruit: gooseberries, pears, apples, and the like. "The President then asked, "Have you tasted any of our American fruits?" Charles said he had not, and the President told Burke, the coachman, to drive under a persimmon tree by the roadside. Standing up in the open carriage, he pulled off some of the green fruit, giving some of it to Burke and some to Charles, with the advice that the latter try some of it. Charles, taking some of the green fruit in his hand, commenced to eat, when to his astonishment he found that he could hardly open his mouth. Trying his best to spit it out, he yelled, "Mr. President, I am poisoned! I am poisoned!" Mr. Lincoln fairly fell back in his carriage and rolled with laughter."

What was the tole of the “footman?”
Mr. Forbes was employed specifically as such?

(06-10-2018 08:19 AM)LincolnMan Wrote:  What was the tole of the “footman?”
Mr. Forbes was employed specifically as such?

Find-A- Grave defines him as "the personal attendant, messenger, and valet to President Abraham Lincoln." IMO, that is accurate.

There is a page on Forbes here:

http://www.mrlincolnswhitehouse.org/resi...es-forbes/

It originally meant, "A servant who runs in front of his master's carriage." I don't know why anyone would need to do that.

I think Roger's definition is accurate as to the role of Charles Forbes.

In 1864, he was listed as a laborer at the White House in the City Directory. In 1865, he was listed as a messenger.

Forbes was reported to be the driver during Mary's carriage accident.

On January 16, 1865, Mary requested that Forbes be made messenger in the place of William Johnson (who I think had died?)

In 1866, he was referred to as Lincoln's body servant.

He seems to have done a lot of errands for Mary and been a favorite of hers. He may have been a kind of unofficially employed servant. I can't remember what he is listed as on the books, if he is listed. I think he was listed as messenger, not footman, but I could be wrong. After Lincoln's death he was listed as messenger, and then as a clerk in various departments.

(06-10-2018 07:09 PM)kerry Wrote:  On January 16, 1865, Mary requested that Forbes be made messenger in the place of William Johnson (who I think had died?)

Yes. Johnson went to Gettysburg with Lincoln, and both became ill (smallpox or a form of it) afterwards. Lincoln recovered, but Johnson died in January 1864. Johnson came to know the Lincoln family in Springfield, and he was Lincoln's valet on the inaugural train. In Washington Johnson was a messenger for the Treasury Department but also did tasks for Lincoln when asked.

Educational as always!