And you know - if you think about it, the plight of the Germans and the plight of the Sioux Indians over a century before are very much alike. Hostile take-overs breed hostile retaliation - and the men with the biggest toys win.

Well said. Reminds me of how a friend's father, who is an archeologist, defines his job: "to find out why empires broke down and vanished in order to prevent history (mankind) from further breakdowns and constant repetition of men's mistakes". (Try to at least - but hope dies last.)

Thank you for your story, Eva! That is what I was hoping for, that someone with personal experiences would chime in, so I could compare it to what the history books (etc.) say.

Just a couple questions: Why were the refugees from East Prussia unwelcome in western Germany? Were most Germans unaware of the magnitude of Hitler's atrocities (concentration camps, etc.) until later in the war?

(10-12-2014 12:56 PM)My Name Is Kate Wrote:  Why were the refugees from East Prussia unwelcome in western Germany?

For exactly the same reasons many in the north feared the freed slaves to come north: the refugees came with nothing, needed to be fed, needed accomodation, competed on the labor market.

Re: "Were most Germans unaware of the magnitude of Hitler's atrocities (concentration camps, etc.) until later in the war?"
I feel not competent to answer this for entire Germany. As I said, my grandma used to say "We knew so little until it was too late". My (mother's) family lived in a little village in East Prussia, which most Germans regarded a kind of backwoods region. Maybe they also couldn't/didn't want to believe (what still seems unimaginable) - information didn't spread like nowadays, and there was not such as live interviews with surviving victims on TV. AFAIK they also didn't personally know any Jewish people and had no interest in harming any.

However, as I said I don't feel competent to give a general answer. In Aachen I had friends whose grandparents were avoved Nazis, still I can't say when and how much they learned of such as concentration camps. One certainly knew, the father of my arts teacher, Ernst-Günther Schenck, who was a Nazi doctor and used humans as guinea pigs for experiments (and my teacher was an alcoholic as he had never got over his father's history and deeds):
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst-G%C...er_Schenck

And the same situation continues today in many parts of the globe, especially the Middle East and parts of Africa. Time does not change a lot of things.

(10-12-2014 03:04 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  

(10-12-2014 12:56 PM)My Name Is Kate Wrote:  Why were the refugees from East Prussia unwelcome in western Germany?

For exactly the same reasons many in the north feared the freed slaves to come north: the refugees came with nothing, needed to be fed, needed accomodation, competed on the labor market.

I would hazard to guess that slavery was not nearly as widespread and was abolished sooner in the North, in part because a largely industrial economy didn't provide a ready-made means to house slaves, as the large plantations in the South did.

Great discussion, everybody. As regards the Sioux Uprising, how can a person access the very same trial records that Lincoln reviewed before he approved the 38 executions? Is this possible?

Hi Larry. Please take a look here. I hope that link might be helpful.

Larry - I haven't read the book yet "38 Nooses", but it seems to have good reviews and it is reasonably priced.
http://www.amazon.com/38-Nooses-Lincoln-...P5H24KKW8C

amazon says the author can be contacted through his web site, so he may be able to assist you
http://www.scottwberg.com/

I can see why the white people wanted all the Sioux hung (if they did even some of the things stated in those trial records), but that would have been just as wrong as letting them all go free. And that is why it so important that everyone is presumed "innocent until proven guilty" and that justice be determined from a fair trial with an impartial judge and jury.

The Dakota Trials Homepage is excellent with quite a bit of information that might not easily be found elsewhere - at least in one place. And I think I will contact Scott Berg and ask him a few questions. Just outside of my hometown of Slayton, Minnesota there is a state park that features a couple cabins where settlers lived, and a monument to those who were killed in the uprising. The area is known as "Slaughter Slough." One settler who survived (but lost his wife and family) was given the "honor" of releasing the mechanism that sprung the trap door at the mass hanging in Mankato. A brand new historic marker went up two years ago at Slaughter Slough on the 150th anniversary of the uprising. Thanks, everyone.

Many thanks to Blaine Houmes for sending these photos and accompanying information:

Little Crow: Sioux Chief and Co-Leader with Chief Red Iron. Initially fled and escaped trial, returning in 1863 to steal horses and was shot dead by a settler.



Old Bets: Sioux squaw who took care of Minnesota captives. Probably the most photographed native involved in the Sioux uprising.



Other Day (ANPETU-TOKECA): He rescued 62 settlers from massacre.



Standing Buffalo (TA-TANKA-NAZIN): Hereditary Chief of the Sioux. He did not take part of the Sioux Uprising and tried to convince Little Crow not to fight. He also contacted Gen. Henry Sibley his band desired peace.



Cut Nose: Sioux tribe, murdered 18 women and children and 5 men. Executed; his body was scavenged by Dr William Mayo for anatomical dissection. He was father to the Mayo Brothers (as in the Mayo Clinic).

I just sent the following proposed "letter to the editor" to the NYTimes.


“[] A Hangman’s Scaffold and a Debate Over Cultural Appropriation” NYTimes May 31, 2017.

I should like to have the New York Times print the following letter in defense of President Abraham Lincoln. Artistic freedom should not be used as an excuse to misstate history.

Sam Durant’s sculpture “Scaffold” is a composite of the gallows used in seven United States government-sanctioned hangings from 1859 to 2006 includes the 1862 execution of 38 Dakota men in Mankato, Minn., ordered by President Abraham Lincoln — the largest mass execution in the nation’s history.

Mr. Durant says that he intended the work “as a learning space for people like me, white people who have not suffered the effects of a white supremacist society and who may not consciously know that it exists.”

The following is an abbreviated history of President Lincoln's response from "Abraham Lincoln: A Life” Volume II, pages 480-84, by Professor Michael Burlingame, 2008:

President Lincoln authorized the execution of only 37 of the 303 condemned men (35 were found guilty of murder and 2 were convicted of rape). Lincoln explained his reasoning: "Anxious not to act with so much clemency as to encourage another outbreak on one hand, nor with so much severity as to be real cruelty on the other, I caused a careful examination of the records of the trials to be made, in view of first ordering the execution of such as had been proved guilty of violating females." He further sought to discriminate between those involved in massacres and those involved only in battles. At the last minute before the executions, President Lincoln pardoned Round Wind, who had helped some whites to escape.

On December 26, 1862, the convicted rapists and killers died on the gallows while a peaceful crowd of more than 5,000 looked on. In 1864, Minnesota Governor Ramsey told President Lincoln that if he had executed all 303 Indians, he would have won more backing for his reelection bid. “I could not afford to hang men for votes," came the reply.

(05-31-2017 09:10 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  In 1864, Minnesota Governor Ramsey told President Lincoln that if he had executed all 303 Indians, he would have won more backing for his reelection bid. “I could not afford to hang men for votes," came the reply.

I agree, David. In his diary, on December 4, 1862, Gideon Welles wrote, "The Members of Congress from Minnesota are urging the President vehemently to give his assent to the execution of three hundred Indian captives, but they will not succeed."