President Lincoln and the Sioux Indian uprising in Minnesota in 1862

[Eva Elisabeth]

(09-23-2014 02:03 PM)My Name Is Katthis. id=38566 Wrote:Yes, but that is after the Civil War ended. What got him through all that hell? How could anyone face the prospect of being president in wartime without a strong faith?

I believe his faith grew with and due to the war events and Willie's death, and was at any time strong enough to serve as the source from which he drew his strength. This is what Mary told Herndon in Sept.1866:

"...he said — 'I shall rule myself — shall obey my own Conscience and follow God in it.' Mr Lincoln had no hope & no faith in the usual acceptation of those words: he never joined a Church: he was a religious man always, as I think: he first thought — to say think — about this subject was when Willie died — never before. he felt religious More than Ever about the time he went to Gettysburg: he was not a technical Christian: he read the bible a good deal about 1864."

In his fairwell address in Springfield, he already said: "Without the assistance of the Divine Being...I cannot succeed", and in his First Inaugural Address: "Intelligence, patriotism, Christianity, and a firm reliance on Him who has never yet forsaken this favored land are still competent to adjust in the best way all our present difficulty."

Please also check out this site: http://abrahamlincolnsclassroom.org/abra...lns-faith/

[STS Lincolnite]

(09-23-2014 02:27 PM)Gene C Wrote:  That's a good question that deserves a good answer.
I'm at work right now, and have an appointment this evening, so I can't give it the attention and thought it deserves.
Hopefully someone wiser and more knowledgeable will answer, if not I'll try later tonight.

Like Gene, I am at work and can't devote the time needed to answer a question like the one posed and do it the justice it deserves. I have have several thoughts to add when I can get back to my home office and maybe some suggested reading. (Probably won't be until tomorrow night for me to get back to it as I have a late night of work tonight).

[Gene C]

I believe Lincoln had a strong faith. Eva mentioned his farewell address in Springfield made before the war breaks out.
Here is the entire address, it's short.
http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/linc...rewell.htm

He was raised with a conservative Baptist background. He knew and understood the scriptures. If you examine
his actions and how he treats others, from boyhood to New Salem, from Springfield to Washington, for the most part he treats others with the characteristics and actions we generally attribute to religious, God fearing men. He's not perfect so he made mistakes. If you've heard the saying, "I would rather see a sermon than hear one", that's Lincoln's behavior. He isn't caught up in the outward appearance of being religious, but (and some will disagree with me here) his actions show a genuine concern for others, - love your neighbor as yourself.

Throughout his life his faith in God is challenged, and probably waivered at some point. He really struggled with Willie's death. The promise of life after death becomes extremely important to him, and there is only one being who can keep that promise. God is his only hope, and because of Lincoln's great love for his son that promise has a greater and more personal importance, it now means more to him than it ever did before. Mary is caught up in her grief, Abraham turns to God's promise of life after death.

That's about as simple and short as I can make it. Remember Lincoln's treatment of others, even as a young man, and the statements he makes in regards to God. IMO that is evidence of his long term faith. I believe Herndon and Ward Hill Lamon are a key source regarding Lincoln's lack of faith or belief in God. For whatever reason they promote that view, I think they got that wrong. Herndon certainly misjudged Mary and the Lincoln's marriage.

I know I left out a lot, there are some good books, and some bad ones, that can add more information.

[Eva Elisabeth]

(09-23-2014 11:38 AM)L Verge Wrote:  I feel that Mr. Lincoln had no qualms about executing at least some of the "rebelling" Sioux - just as he knew that the "rebelling" Southerners had to be defeated - no matter the cost.

From what I read I would veto this.

Not to forget - more than 350 whites had been killed by the Indians. Gen. Pope and Minnes. Senator M. Wilkinson pressed on all 303 convicted men to be executed. Lincoln himself deliberately went through the record of each of the 303 convicted men (how the record was collected is another point he couldn't influence much then anymore), and of the remaining 37, 35 were found guilty of murder and 2 were convicted of rape. He carefully wrote down all names (such as "Te-he-hdo-ne-cha") himself and warned the telegraph officer not to make the slightes error when wiring the list to the military authorities as this might kill the wrong man. Why such efforts when it was just about "executing at least some of the "rebelling" Sioux"?

When in 1864, Minnesota Governor Ramsey told President Lincoln that if he had executed all 303 Indians, he would have won a larger majority for his reelection, Lincoln replied: “I could not afford to hang men for votes." This is also IMO but little compatible with "he knew that the 'rebelling' Southerners had to be defeated - no matter the cost".

[LincolnToddFan]

That's an excellent point Eva. How many leaders would sit down and carefully write out all those names-phonetically-to make certain that no one was executed in error? That struck me when I first read it.

Rape and murder were crimes that even White men would have been put to death for. Other than simply pardon all the accused, I'm not sure how else AL could have proceeded.

[My Name Is Kate]

(09-24-2014 02:17 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Other than simply pardon all the accused, I'm not sure how else AL could have proceeded.

He could have ordered that all the accused be assigned an attorney. I'm not saying he should have done that, but that is another option besides letting them all go free.

Thank you all for your comments. The link Eva posted about Lincoln and his religion was especially interesting. I had read somewhere that at one time, Lincoln had written an article denouncing the Scriptures, or maybe the Bible in general, so that had me wondering what, if anything, he believed in of a religious nature. I can fully understand that he was actually a "religious" person, though not in the church-going sense.

[RJNorton]

(09-24-2014 04:00 PM)My Name Is Kate Wrote:  I had read somewhere that at one time, Lincoln had written an article denouncing the Scriptures, or maybe the Bible in general, so that had me wondering what, if anything, he believed in of a religious nature.

Hi Kate. I have read this, too, but I don't know how true the story is. Essentially it says that in 1834 Lincoln wrote his own pamphlet about religion in which he expressed his personal religious skepticism. Samuel Hill, a New Salem friend and miller to whom Lincoln showed the small book, was totally shocked by what Lincoln had to say and tried to persuade Lincoln to destroy it. But Lincoln wanted to publish it. Thinking it would destroy Lincoln's future, Hill is said to have snatched it from Lincoln's hands and to have thrown it into the fire.

If the story is true, I think we would know a lot more about Lincoln's early skepticism if that small book had not been destroyed.

IMO, no matter the truth or untruth of this story, Lincoln had developed a strong faith by the 1860's. He was very different by the 1860's than he was in the 1830's.

[LincolnToddFan]

Roger, wasn't the anti-Christian screed by Lincoln called "Infidel" or something?

Kate
Assigning attorneys to each of the 300+ of the accused would perhaps have not been feasible but yes I absolutely agree with you that they should have had at the very least one attorney to look out for their interests and defend them. Was this at least considered? Did their status as non-citizens prohibit it?

Very tragic situation.

[RJNorton]

Toia, I found this in a letter from Hardin Bale to W. Herndon dated May 29, 1865:

"About the year 1834 A Lincoln wrote a work on infidelity, denying the divinity of the Scriptures and was persuaded by his friends — particularly by Saml to burn it which was done —"

[LincolnToddFan]

Right, thanks Roger...but I vaguely remember an interview with the late novelist Gore Vidal where he mentioned a title to the anti-Christian pamphlet allegedly written by AL?

[Linda Anderson]

(09-25-2014 01:08 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Right, thanks Roger...but I vaguely remember an interview with the late novelist Gore Vidal where he mentioned a title to the anti-Christian pamphlet allegedly written by AL?

Toia, I found the article you are referring to in the Gore Vidal Pages.

"From "First Note on Abraham Lincoln," by Gore Vidal, The Los Angeles Times, February 8, 1981:

"It will come as a terrible shock to many of those who have been twice-born in the capacious bosom of Jesus to learn that Lincoln not only rejected Christianity but wrote a small book called "Infidelity" (meaning lack of faith in God). [Herndon writes that] Lincoln:

"read his manuscript to Samuel Hill, his employer (who) said to Lincoln: 'Lincoln, let me see your manuscript.' Lincoln handed it to him. Hill ran it in a tin-plate stove, and so the book went up in flames. Lincoln in that production attempted to show that the Bible was false: first on the grounds of reason, and, second, because it was self-contradictory; that Jesus was not the son of God any more than any man."

http://www.gorevidalpages.com/1981/02/ab...vidal.html

[L Verge]

To me, that would indicate that Lincoln rejected Christ, but not necessarily a Supreme Being. I believe that several of our leading forefathers had the same feelings (and likely quite a few today!).

[Gene C]

Herndon again....why am I not surprised

"Herndon was responsible for some Lincoln controversies about Mr. Lincoln's alleged atheism and his romance with Anne Rutledge - which he created from some facts and arrogant reliance on his own "intuition" and "dog sagacity."

from - David Herbert Donald, "Lincoln's Herndon: A Biography"
http://www.mrlincolnandfriends.org/insid...ubjectID=3

[LincolnToddFan]

Linda, is there anything you can't find for us around here?? THANKS!!

Gene, I tend to agree with David Donald here. I don't claim to know if AL had "found Christ" by the end of his life, but the author of the Second Inaugural was no atheist, imo.

[My Name Is Kate]

Here is what it says in Eva's link above:

"Mr. Lincoln made an interesting argument regarding sin shortly before the Civil War. “Isaac Cogdal, who had known Lincoln from the time of the New Salem period, recalled a discussion on religion in Lincoln’s office in 1859. Herndon was in the office at the time.

...Lincoln expressed himself in about these words: ‘all that was lost by the transgression of Adam was made good by the atonement; all that was lost by the fall was made good by the sacrifice...’"

That sounds like he believed in Christ, unless he was speaking of some other atonement that I know nothing of.

But according to this article, Isaac Cogdal is not particularly trustworthy:

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jala/2629860...w=fulltext

After doing a little more research, I find that the writer of the article on Isaac Cogdal, C.A. Tripp, wrote a book on Lincoln's supposed gayness.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/thepreside...gayabe.htm

(OK, I've had enough of this. Too many alleged historians and writers with their own agendas.)