This is a crucial question. It could change our thinking - drastically.

If they did know, or didn't know, they were not involved in Lincoln's assassination,

Up until 1 April '65, the common goal was to abduct Lincoln. We all know that.

Then, on 1 April, Surratt and Slater left Richmond for Montreal. They were pretty much "out of touch" with headquarters. Next they departed from Montreal, for Elmira. If Montreal knew about Harney, then Surratt and Slater, were not involved and didn't need to know.

Also, on 1 April, Harney left Richmond for Mosby with his own set of orders. All went well until the 10th and Harney is captured.

Somewhere after the 10th, Booth went to New York (for Orders?) Upon his return, he wired Surratt "to Come here - immediately, the plan has changed." (No known reply). Later, Surratt learned of the assassination, but dallied in Elmira, and arrived back in Montreal on the 18th. (Booth had tried to rally his squad, for the new plan, but they balked. (( I'm beginning to understand their thinking)) Murder was not in their thinking)

Did Booth involve Mary Surratt, Dr. Mudd and the Secret Line - in the murder, after the fact?

Surratt and Slater never knew that there was to be an assassination - until it was a done-deal.

What are your thoughts on this?

(04-07-2016 03:43 PM)SSlater Wrote:  Somewhere after the 10th, Booth went to New York (for Orders?) Upon his return, he wired Surratt "to Come here - immediately, the plan has changed."
Surratt and Slater never knew that there was to be an assassination - until it was a done-deal.
What are your thoughts on this?

Hi John. I thought that Booth arrived in Washington on Saturday, April 8th, and was there through the 14th. My mind is blank on any trips Booth made to New York after April 8th.

My thoughts on whether Surratt knew of the Harney mission - I would think that the orders for a mission to blow up the White House came from the top - Davis and Benjamin. I would also think that as few people as possible would be told of such a mission. Secrecy would be paramount. My personal guess is that Surratt was not aware of Harney's mission or failure.

I suppose Surratt could have known about the Harney mission if Edwin G. Lee told him. But would Lee have known?

I agree with Roger, I think the Harney mission was a closely held Richmond plot, no need to let a low level courier, like Surratt, in on the secret.

As for the plot on Lincoln, I think the Confederate Government gave up on the kidnapping concept after Lincoln was re-elected.
As for Mosby's men, were they in place for Harney's benefit, Booth's or both? I doubt they knew the purpose of Harney or Booth, just that they were needed to help in getting someone further south.

But, you have looked into this more than I have. I am interested in your findings and ideas.

Where was Mosby on the day of, and following the assassination?

(04-07-2016 03:43 PM)SSlater Wrote:  This is a crucial question. It could change our thinking - drastically.

If they did know, or didn't know, they were not involved in Lincoln's assassination,

Up until 1 April '65, the common goal was to abduct Lincoln. We all know that.

Then, on 1 April, Surratt and Slater left Richmond for Montreal. They were pretty much "out of touch" with headquarters. Next they departed from Montreal, for Elmira. If Montreal knew about Harney, then Surratt and Slater, were not involved and didn't need to know.

Also, on 1 April, Harney left Richmond for Mosby with his own set of orders. All went well until the 10th and Harney is captured.

Somewhere after the 10th, Booth went to New York (for Orders?) Upon his return, he wired Surratt "to Come here - immediately, the plan has changed." (No known reply). Later, Surratt learned of the assassination, but dallied in Elmira, and arrived back in Montreal on the 18th. (Booth had tried to rally his squad, for the new plan, but they balked. (( I'm beginning to understand their thinking)) Murder was not in their thinking)

Did Booth involve Mary Surratt, Dr. Mudd and the Secret Line - in the murder, after the fact?

Surratt and Slater never knew that there was to be an assassination - until it was a done-deal.

What are your thoughts on this?

Howdy:

"Up until 1 April '65, the common goal was to abduct Lincoln. We all know that."

How do we all know that? Before answering, please recall that prior to 1492, just about everyone believed the world was flat.

John

John My head is running at capacity - trying to keep up with the Lincoln Story. I don't have room to worry about the people in 1492.

Gene, The Harney mission was a well guarded secret, but Booth knew, George Atzerodt knew. Who else may have known? Atzerodt was the only one who told us. Snyder told us a bit more. The point I am working on - Did Mary Surratt know? I think, she did not. She died anyhow. She did not participate in the assassination. If I ask you to get me a Hamburg, and you shoot the clerk, am I complicit? (That' s not like I drove the get away car.)

As for the "Escape Route" through Maryland. That was an established "Travel Route" for all Rebels. Stringfellow used it,exactly,
on April 1. It was there for Booth to carry Lincoln. It was there for his escape. Surratt and Slater used it to go to Canada General Magruder's daughter was a spy and went back and forth to Canada.The spy Josephine Brown had her own route, set up by her father, that went through Leonardtown.

According to Tidwell. Mosby's men were in Southern Maryland to prevent a chase party from catching up with the Abduction Party.

Last Question: where was Mosby during this week? Upperville. VA. +/-
Mosby had people active from Southern Maryland to the Appalachian Mountains. He had to be available to ALL OF THEM, so he was in the middle. I have also read that George Baylor, the man that lead the failed raid - "went back to Mosby" at Uppervillle. The North knew where he was, at this time, because they pleaded with him to Surrender.

Thanks SSlater.

If Atzerodt knew about Harney, I wonder if Atzerodt's involvement in other activities was greater than we give him credit for.
And if he got his info from Booth, that may mean that Booth was higher up on the information chain than we give him credit for. (So much for a well guarded secret)

Either way, Stanton was right.
"Damn the Rebels, This is their work!"

(04-14-2016 02:25 PM)Gene C Wrote:  Thanks SSlater.

If Atzerodt knew about Harney, I wonder if Atzerodt's involvement in other activities was greater than we give him credit for.
And if he got his info from Booth, that may mean that Booth was higher up on the information chain than we give him credit for. (So much for a well guarded secret)

Either way, Stanton was right.
"Damn the Rebels, This is their work!"

I believe that Booth told Atzerodt about the scheme out of frustration. Tidwell has told us that Booth was in a black mood. Thus, Booth let off steam at Atzerodt. Booth was probably upset by not having a role in the scheme.

(04-14-2016 12:56 PM)SSlater Wrote:  John My head is running at capacity - trying to keep up with the Lincoln Story. I don't have room to worry about the people in 1492.

Gene, The Harney mission was a well guarded secret, but Booth knew, George Atzerodt knew. Who else may have known? Atzerodt was the only one who told us. Snyder told us a bit more. The point I am working on - Did Mary Surratt know? I think, she did not. She died anyhow. She did not participate in the assassination. If I ask you to get me a Hamburg, and you shoot the clerk, am I complicit? (That' s not like I drove the get away car.)

As for the "Escape Route" through Maryland. That was an established "Travel Route" for all Rebels. Stringfellow used it,exactly,
on April 1. It was there for Booth to carry Lincoln. It was there for his escape. Surratt and Slater used it to go to Canada General Magruder's daughter was a spy and went back and forth to Canada.The spy Josephine Brown had her own route, set up by her father, that went through Leonardtown.

According to Tidwell. Mosby's men were in Southern Maryland to prevent a chase party from catching up with the Abduction Party.

Last Question: where was Mosby during this week? Upperville. VA. +/-
Mosby had people active from Southern Maryland to the Appalachian Mountains. He had to be available to ALL OF THEM, so he was in the middle. I have also read that George Baylor, the man that lead the failed raid - "went back to Mosby" at Uppervillle. The North knew where he was, at this time, because they pleaded with him to Surrender.

SSlater:

You misunderstood me. I was not asking you to worry about people in 1492. I was merely trying to illustrate that the number of people who believe something is not necessarily an indication of its truth. Your original statement was that "We all know..." that Booth's purpose was to kidnap Lincoln. Again I ask: How do we all know that?

John

(04-16-2016 05:37 AM)John Fazio Wrote:  

(04-14-2016 12:56 PM)SSlater Wrote:  John My head is running at capacity - trying to keep up with the Lincoln Story. I don't have room to worry about the people in 1492.

Gene, The Harney mission was a well guarded secret, but Booth knew, George Atzerodt knew. Who else may have known? Atzerodt was the only one who told us. Snyder told us a bit more. The point I am working on - Did Mary Surratt know? I think, she did not. She died anyhow. She did not participate in the assassination. If I ask you to get me a Hamburg, and you shoot the clerk, am I complicit? (That' s not like I drove the get away car.)

As for the "Escape Route" through Maryland. That was an established "Travel Route" for all Rebels. Stringfellow used it,exactly,
on April 1. It was there for Booth to carry Lincoln. It was there for his escape. Surratt and Slater used it to go to Canada General Magruder's daughter was a spy and went back and forth to Canada.The spy Josephine Brown had her own route, set up by her father, that went through Leonardtown.

According to Tidwell. Mosby's men were in Southern Maryland to prevent a chase party from catching up with the Abduction Party.

Last Question: where was Mosby during this week? Upperville. VA. +/-
Mosby had people active from Southern Maryland to the Appalachian Mountains. He had to be available to ALL OF THEM, so he was in the middle. I have also read that George Baylor, the man that lead the failed raid - "went back to Mosby" at Uppervillle. The North knew where he was, at this time, because they pleaded with him to Surrender.

SSlater:

You misunderstood me. I was not asking you to worry about people in 1492. I was merely trying to illustrate that the number of people who believe something is not necessarily an indication of its truth. Your original statement was that "We all know..." that Booth's purpose was to kidnap Lincoln. Again I ask: How do we all know that?

John

I apologize, John. I knew what you meant, I was trying to make you laugh. However, I will address "We all know that.."
Booth and others, including Rev. Kensey Johns Stewart, may have wanted to kill Lincoln, but they had their orders and they complied.
The thoughts that others favored were - that a dead Lincoln had no "trade value". Some of the plans for Lincoln were 1. He was to be used to accelerate the release of Confederate prisoners. or 2. He was to be traded for an immediate end of the war. or 3, he was to be traded for "favorable Terms", when the South surrendered.
Booth chastised himself, publicly, for not killing Lincoln at the inauguration, but be obeyed orders, then revolted and acted on his own, to gain fame and fortune.

"Booth chastised himself, publicly, for not killing Lincoln at the inauguration, but be obeyed orders, then revolted and acted on his own, to gain fame and fortune."

Or, as my grandmother used to repeat from her father, Eli Huntt, "Booth had to do something to save face, since half of Southern Maryland knew that his kidnap plot had failed."

When DID Booth decide that murder was the only option? A central question is one is developing charges to prosecute individuals. Who is guilty of Conspiracy to murder and whom is in a conspiracy to kidnap?

Mr. Fazio presented material in both his book (well done but I can't wholly agree with his conclusions) and in his conference presentation (so I'm informed as my age precluded my attendance) Jefferson Davis did not know or was unaware of shift to kill or perhaps kidnap. If my memory serves me, US Presidents have relied on "plausible deniability" as a mechanism to avoid or deflect responsibility. This has frequently caused them to falsify or otherwise lie about their knowledge. I would suggest that Jefferson Davis and other members of his cabinet have done the same.

A kidnapping ALWAYS has some risk of injury/ death to the vicim. This is either through the capture (resistance by victim or accidentally) or in escape, or even in a rescue attempt. Thusly injury or death to Lincoln was always a possibility.
I have always felt that JWB would have been comfortable with killing Lincoln at any time either during a kidnap or as he did on April 14th.
When Booth proposed to his co-conspirators in March to attempt a kidnap, was he placating them? The kidnap was to me at this point in time passe and he had made his mind up that Lincoln had to die. The "farce" that was the March kidnap attempt, suggests this i.e. Lincoln speaking at the National Hotel (Booths home in the District). was not a serious event. Herold down in the TB area a "dry run" for the escape ? The firepower that Booth assembled from his purchases in NYC was sufficient for both kidnap and murder with escape for both.
I am also informed that Mr. Fazio suggested that there was NEVER a kidnap plot. If this is so, why did Booth purchase handcuffs ( still extant in a Philadelphia museum)? Using them on Lincoln might have been more problematical.

From Booth (paraphrased) - I was close enough to have shot him (inaugural) post facto to assassination
Why don't you shoot him? - on White House Grounds

Harney sent to plant explosives (presumably he was only going to "wound" the occupants) implies an assassination event. Did Harney have section to act? If we believe Harney was sanctioned then why not JWB?

Realistically, if I were forced to set up a timeline, until December 1864, kidnap was the greater possibility. After December I would vote for assassination. What is unknown is if JWB met with the "NY crowd" during his Nov. 64 sojourn for the Julius Caesar performance. If he did, instructions from Ri****D could have have been relayed.

Unless Sarah Slater and John Surratt had similar missions, it would be unlikely they were briefed at the same time, they may have overlapped so shared common instructions would apply. A possibility is that both Sarah S and John S. were sent to communicate what to do when /if Davis and his cabinet had to flee or the Confederacy falls. "Come Retribution" could apply to Lincoln and his cabinet as a response to the "crushing" of the Confederate States. Did not Caesar die for his assumption of power? Lincoln, in Booth's mind usurped power and punished the southern States and for this had to be punished. John Surratt on April !, 1865 may have been assigned a order to implement ALL covert actions against the Federal Govt. and then "skedaddle". Sarah S. carried the escape orders and perhaps bank drafts, transfers. I would like to review all transactions at the Montreal Banks utilized by the Confederate Cabinet- not sure if anyone has ever looked at them. If anyone knows where these records are or if they are available on microfilm I would appreciate that information.

In summary:
Murder is ALWAYS a possibility to JWB
March kidnap action is not a credible attempt
Surratt and Slater probably carried instructions for escape and implementation of all covert actions against AL and Cabinet
JWB changed from kidnap to murder sometime between Nov 64 and April 65.
April 9,1865 forced JWB to act before Johnston surrendered and (to him not anyone else) all hope was lost

Need to know:
What means of communication between Richmond and Mosby existed between Jan and April 65?
Did Surratt or Slater make any stops in Virginia for meetings before reaching the District? Thinking Enoch Mason/ Mosby
Bank Transactions /accounts/ transfers for members of Confederate Cabinet in Canada
Were any of the funds for Booth in Canada left after his death and what became of the residue (if any)
What alias(s) did Booth ever use?

Thank- you for letting me ramble a bit here, I will try to become more frequent in my postings - I do enjoy the discussions

(04-17-2016 12:29 PM)Francis Farrell Wrote:  When DID Booth decide that murder was the only option? A central question is one is developing charges to prosecute individuals. Who is guilty of Conspiracy to murder and whom is in a conspiracy to kidnap?

Mr. Fazio presented material in both his book (well done but I can't wholly agree with his conclusions) and in his conference presentation (so I'm informed as my age precluded my attendance) Jefferson Davis did not know or was unaware of shift to kill or perhaps kidnap. If my memory serves me, US Presidents have relied on "plausible deniability" as a mechanism to avoid or deflect responsibility. This has frequently caused them to falsify or otherwise lie about their knowledge. I would suggest that Jefferson Davis and other members of his cabinet have done the same.

A kidnapping ALWAYS has some risk of injury/ death to the vicim. This is either through the capture (resistance by victim or accidentally) or in escape, or even in a rescue attempt. Thusly injury or death to Lincoln was always a possibility.
I have always felt that JWB would have been comfortable with killing Lincoln at any time either during a kidnap or as he did on April 14th.
When Booth proposed to his co-conspirators in March to attempt a kidnap, was he placating them? The kidnap was to me at this point in time passe and he had made his mind up that Lincoln had to die. The "farce" that was the March kidnap attempt, suggests this i.e. Lincoln speaking at the National Hotel (Booths home in the District). was not a serious event. Herold down in the TB area a "dry run" for the escape ? The firepower that Booth assembled from his purchases in NYC was sufficient for both kidnap and murder with escape for both.
I am also informed that Mr. Fazio suggested that there was NEVER a kidnap plot. If this is so, why did Booth purchase handcuffs ( still extant in a Philadelphia museum)? Using them on Lincoln might have been more problematical.

From Booth (paraphrased) - I was close enough to have shot him (inaugural) post facto to assassination
Why don't you shoot him? - on White House Grounds

Harney sent to plant explosives (presumably he was only going to "wound" the occupants) implies an assassination event. Did Harney have section to act? If we believe Harney was sanctioned then why not JWB?

Realistically, if I were forced to set up a timeline, until December 1864, kidnap was the greater possibility. After December I would vote for assassination. What is unknown is if JWB met with the "NY crowd" during his Nov. 64 sojourn for the Julius Caesar performance. If he did, instructions from Ri****D could have have been relayed.

Unless Sarah Slater and John Surratt had similar missions, it would be unlikely they were briefed at the same time, they may have overlapped so shared common instructions would apply. A possibility is that both Sarah S and John S. were sent to communicate what to do when /if Davis and his cabinet had to flee or the Confederacy falls. "Come Retribution" could apply to Lincoln and his cabinet as a response to the "crushing" of the Confederate States. Did not Caesar die for his assumption of power? Lincoln, in Booth's mind usurped power and punished the southern States and for this had to be punished. John Surratt on April !, 1865 may have been assigned a order to implement ALL covert actions against the Federal Govt. and then "skedaddle". Sarah S. carried the escape orders and perhaps bank drafts, transfers. I would like to review all transactions at the Montreal Banks utilized by the Confederate Cabinet- not sure if anyone has ever looked at them. If anyone knows where these records are or if they are available on microfilm I would appreciate that information.

In summary:
Murder is ALWAYS a possibility to JWB
March kidnap action is not a credible attempt
Surratt and Slater probably carried instructions for escape and implementation of all covert actions against AL and Cabinet
JWB changed from kidnap to murder sometime between Nov 64 and April 65.
April 9,1865 forced JWB to act before Johnston surrendered and (to him not anyone else) all hope was lost

Need to know:
What means of communication between Richmond and Mosby existed between Jan and April 65?
Did Surratt or Slater make any stops in Virginia for meetings before reaching the District? Thinking Enoch Mason/ Mosby
Bank Transactions /accounts/ transfers for members of Confederate Cabinet in Canada
Were any of the funds for Booth in Canada left after his death and what became of the residue (if any)
What alias(s) did Booth ever use?

Thank- you for letting me ramble a bit here, I will try to become more frequent in my postings - I do enjoy the discussions

Francis:

"Mr. Fazio has suggested that there was NEVER a kidnap plot. If this is so, why did Booth purchase handcuffs?" A good question and one that deserves an answer.

Recall that Booth began gathering his action team for "kidnapping" in early August, 1864. Recall, further, that he did not return to Baltimore with "arms and tools" (including the handcuffs) until January, 1865. There were therefore no arms and tools for "kidnapping" for approximately six months. Further, what happened to the arms and tools? He gave them to Arnold and O'Laughlen, who took them to Washington and parked them with a friend, after which we hear nothing more about them until John Surratt, Atzerodt and Herold deposited two carbines and some tools with Lloyd on March 18, which were then not used for "kidnapping", but to aid the fugitives' escape after the assassination. I conclude, therefore, that Booth picked up a few arms and tools for appearances sake, to give his ostensible purpose plausibility to those of his action team who were not privy to his real purpose (everyone but John Surratt and Lewis Powell). There is no indication that they were used or ever would be used to kidnap anyone. Recall that Arnold's statement as to his role in the kidnapping was related to the Commissioners at the trial. His role, he said, was to receive the 6' 4" Lincoln (Arnold was 5' 10") when he was lowered 12 feet from the upper box by the 5' 6" Booth, secure him (presumably with the handcuffs) and then somehow transport him across the stage and down the passageway that led to the rear door and into Baptist Alley (while 1,700 of his friends sat motionless) where he would be bundled into a carriage or buggy and then carried through thousands of Union troops, the A. C. Richards's Metropolitan Police and Lafayette Baker's Secret Police. When this story was related to the Commissioners, everyone in the courtroom burst out laughing, including Arnold. Clearly, Booth's "kidnapping" scheme, and therefore his handcuffs, were all hot air. Arnold described the scheme as "quixotic"..."and with the last, no overt act was committed...".

John

John, wasn't Richard M. Smoot's boat acquired specifically to be used in the kidnapping plan?

(04-18-2016 04:02 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  John, wasn't Richard M. Smoot's boat acquired specifically to be used in the kidnapping plan?

Roger:

The boat was described as a skiff, which is defined as a small, light sailboat or rowboat. Such a boat would appear to be suitable for transporting two or three men across the Potomac (i.e. Booth, Herold and Atzerodt, if he had decided to follow them, which was the original plan according to Smoot), but not a party of men and the President of the United States (assuming the conspirators could have managed the all-but-impossible feat of getting Lincoln that far). A boat can be acquired for any number of reasons, and one can give any reason he wishes to as to why he is acquiring a boat. Recall that Smoot said that Booth, Herold and Atzerodt were to have taken flight together after the assassination (which fits with the evidence indicating that Powell headed for Baltimore) and were to make their way to the seaboard where they would board a vessel that would take them to a country that had no extradition treaty with the U.S. (which fits with Herold's telling his friends in T.B. that the next time they heard from him, he would be in Spain with a barrel of money, and also fits with Ste. Marie's reference to Spain in his Affidavit). Recall, further, that Mary Surratt told Smoot on the day of the assassination that she was sure the skiff would be used that night. Conclusion: There is no evidence indicating the skiff was to be used incident to kidnapping, but good evidence that it was acquired and to be used incident to the assassination, i.e. by Booth, Herold and Atzerodt in their escape. Atzerodt, of course, decided that he was better off with friends and relatives on a farm near Baltimore than he was with Booth and Herold, due in part, no doubt, to his failure to assassinate Johnson.

John

Thanks, John. Mary Surratt also asked the pickets guarding the road to Surrattsville how late they would be staying that night. Doesn't this indicate she knew the boat would not really be needed that night? (In other words she knew Booth's intended route.) Thus, I would think the boat was only for the kidnapping plan (yes, I realize you feel it didn't ever exist), and not the assassination plan. Thus, I am thinking Mary just wanted Smoot out of her house and lied to him about the boat in an effort to "hurry him on his way."