Did Surratt and Slater know about Harney's Mission?

[John Fazio]

(04-18-2016 07:43 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Thanks, John. Mary Surratt also asked the pickets guarding the road to Surrattsville how late they would be staying that night. Doesn't this indicate she knew the boat would not really be needed that night? (In other words she knew Booth's intended route.) Thus, I would think the boat was only for the kidnapping plan (yes, I realize you feel it didn't ever exist), and not the assassination plan. Thus, I am thinking Mary just wanted Smoot out of her house and lied to him about the boat in an effort to "hurry him on his way."

Roger:

Why should one preclude the other? I have no doubt that Mrs. Surratt knew Booth's intended escape route. Thus her question to the pickets. But why does a stop at the tavern for rifles, whiskey, field glasses, etc., preclude a continuation of the escape by crossing the Potomac in Smoot's skiff? Was Smoot's skiff the craft they used to cross from Dent's Meadow? Thomas A. Jones led them to it at Dent's Meadow. It was said to be waiting for them and to be 14 feet long. That's not very long for a boat. It certainly could have been Smoot's skiff; I really don't know. But I believe the likelihood that it was Smoot's skiff is greater than the likelihood that Mrs. Surratt shooed Smoot out of her boardinghouse on the 14th with a ***** and bull story about the use of the skiff that night. Conclusion: There is nothing to indicate that the skiff was to be used in a kidnapping plot. If it was used at all, it was used to facilitate the escape of Booth and Herold after the assassination.

John

[RJNorton]

John, thank you very much for replying to my questions!

Please bear with me as the idea there was never a serious kidnap plot is contrary to what I've read in most (if not all) books except for yours.

[John Fazio]

(04-18-2016 10:38 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  John, thank you very much for replying to my questions!

Please bear with me as the idea there was never a serious kidnap plot is contrary to what I've read in most (if not all) books except for yours.

Roger:

Error takes on a life of its own, like the name of the Lincolns' carriage driver; the way in which the Lincolns, Rathbone and Harris made their way to the theater on the fateful night; what Herold did and did not do on the fateful night; Booth's broken leg; and the simple conspiracy theory, the rogue operation myth that has persisted into our own time. The simple truth is that there is only one original source, one horse's mouth, for the kidnapping story, and that of course is Booth, and, more specifically, reference to the same in his diary and in one of his letters to Asia. All others who speak of it were merely repeating what Booth told them. If the story is a cover story concocted by the Secret Service to conceal the true purpose of Booth's conspiracy and to facilitate the recruitment of an action team, then Booth is lying, in which case every member of his action team who repeats the story and who was not privy to Booth's true purpose (I believe that only John Surratt and Powell knew his true purpose) is also perpetuating falsehood, though they don't know it. By extension, every historian, scholar, researcher, writer and enthusiast who reads Booth's diary entry and/or the reference in one of his letters to his sister, or one of the references to the story made by John Surratt, Powell, Arnold, Herold, Atzerodt or O'Laughlen, and who then puts the same out as fact, is also unknowingly perpetuating falsehood. Thus does error become entrenched over a period of 150 years, despite compelling, indeed overwhelming, evidence to the contrary for those who take the time to dig it out.

John

[L Verge]

(04-18-2016 10:19 AM)John Fazio Wrote:  

(04-18-2016 07:43 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Thanks, John. Mary Surratt also asked the pickets guarding the road to Surrattsville how late they would be staying that night. Doesn't this indicate she knew the boat would not really be needed that night? (In other words she knew Booth's intended route.) Thus, I would think the boat was only for the kidnapping plan (yes, I realize you feel it didn't ever exist), and not the assassination plan. Thus, I am thinking Mary just wanted Smoot out of her house and lied to him about the boat in an effort to "hurry him on his way."

Roger:

Why should one preclude the other? I have no doubt that Mrs. Surratt knew Booth's intended escape route. Thus her question to the pickets. But why does a stop at the tavern for rifles, whiskey, field glasses, etc., preclude a continuation of the escape by crossing the Potomac in Smoot's skiff? Was Smoot's skiff the craft they used to cross from Dent's Meadow? Thomas A. Jones led them to it at Dent's Meadow. It was said to be waiting for them and to be 14 feet long. That's not very long for a boat. It certainly could have been Smoot's skiff; I really don't know. But I believe the likelihood that it was Smoot's skiff is greater than the likelihood that Mrs. Surratt shooed Smoot out of her boardinghouse on the 14th with a ***** and bull story about the use of the skiff that night. Conclusion: There is nothing to indicate that the skiff was to be used in a kidnapping plot. If it was used at all, it was used to facilitate the escape of Booth and Herold after the assassination.

John

Are we trying to turn two boats into one here? The boat that was to be involved in the kidnap plot was a large, flat-bottomed boat capable of carrying a carriage (with wheels removed) and a number of men. Smoot, Brawner, Bateman (and probably lawyer Frederick Stone) knew that it was being held up King's Creek, which is several river miles from Dent's Meadow.

Thomas Jones had a rowboat to offer the fugitives at the foot of the banks above on Dent's Meadow. I believe Jones had his hired man out in that boat pretending to be fishing for several days as a cover for later use of the boat. April is shad running time in our area, and both the fish and its roe were valuable food stock. Yankee patrols would get used to seeing the boat and hopefully forget about it.

I'm not familiar with nautical terms, so I only know there are boats and ships. Not sure what a skiff is, but David Herold rowed an old-fashioned rowboat for two nights. When finally captured, he complained about his hands being sore, and they were covered with blisters.

BTW: Why would Booth go to the trouble and expense of acquiring that flat-bottomed boat and involving more people in his plans if he never intended to kidnap the President?

[John Fazio]

(04-18-2016 11:56 AM)L Verge Wrote:  

(04-18-2016 10:19 AM)John Fazio Wrote:  

(04-18-2016 07:43 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Thanks, John. Mary Surratt also asked the pickets guarding the road to Surrattsville how late they would be staying that night. Doesn't this indicate she knew the boat would not really be needed that night? (In other words she knew Booth's intended route.) Thus, I would think the boat was only for the kidnapping plan (yes, I realize you feel it didn't ever exist), and not the assassination plan. Thus, I am thinking Mary just wanted Smoot out of her house and lied to him about the boat in an effort to "hurry him on his way."

Roger:

Why should one preclude the other? I have no doubt that Mrs. Surratt knew Booth's intended escape route. Thus her question to the pickets. But why does a stop at the tavern for rifles, whiskey, field glasses, etc., preclude a continuation of the escape by crossing the Potomac in Smoot's skiff? Was Smoot's skiff the craft they used to cross from Dent's Meadow? Thomas A. Jones led them to it at Dent's Meadow. It was said to be waiting for them and to be 14 feet long. That's not very long for a boat. It certainly could have been Smoot's skiff; I really don't know. But I believe the likelihood that it was Smoot's skiff is greater than the likelihood that Mrs. Surratt shooed Smoot out of her boardinghouse on the 14th with a ***** and bull story about the use of the skiff that night. Conclusion: There is nothing to indicate that the skiff was to be used in a kidnapping plot. If it was used at all, it was used to facilitate the escape of Booth and Herold after the assassination.

John

Are we trying to turn two boats into one here? The boat that was to be involved in the kidnap plot was a large, flat-bottomed boat capable of carrying a carriage (with wheels removed) and a number of men. Smoot, Brawner, Bateman (and probably lawyer Frederick Stone) knew that it was being held up King's Creek, which is several river miles from Dent's Meadow.

Thomas Jones had a rowboat to offer the fugitives at the foot of the banks above on Dent's Meadow. I believe Jones had his hired man out in that boat pretending to be fishing for several days as a cover for later use of the boat. April is shad running time in our area, and both the fish and its roe were valuable food stock. Yankee patrols would get used to seeing the boat and hopefully forget about it.

I'm not familiar with nautical terms, so I only know there are boats and ships. Not sure what a skiff is, but David Herold rowed an old-fashioned rowboat for two nights. When finally captured, he complained about his hands being sore, and they were covered with blisters.

BTW: Why would Booth go to the trouble and expense of acquiring that flat-bottomed boat and involving more people in his plans if he never intended to kidnap the President?

Laurie:

The King's Creek boat was Smoot's boat, not a different one. The fact that Smoot's name is associated with it indicates, does it not, that this is the boat that he refers to in his 1908 pamphlet. That it was to be used incident to assassination rather than kidnapping may be deduced from his writings, as follows:

1. Surratt told Smoot that "...the need of the boat would be the consequence of an event of unprecedented magnitude in the history of the country, which would startle and astound the entire world."
2.Smoot turned the boat over to Atzerodt, who placed it in charge of Bateman, who took it up King's Creek. Three months passed without Smoot being paid for the boat.
3. Smoot went to the boardinghouse at 9:30 Friday night (14th). Mary informed him "that she was positive that the boat would be used that night, and that I would get my money in a day or two.
4. After Smoot learned of the assassination, he "understood the significance of Surratt's remark when he said that there was to be an event of unprecedented importance and magnitude take place. I understood why my boat was purchased and the use it was to be put to."
5. Smoot said that "...it was the intention of Booth , Atzerodt and Herold, to ride from Washington, after the shooting, to what was known as Lock Eleven farm, located near where King's Creek crosses the public road in Charles County, there turn their horses loose, and walk to the point on King's Creek where the boat was concealed, and cross the Potomac in it". (He adds that the route of escape was changed because of Booth's broken leg, which necessitated the trip to Dr. Mudd. He adds, further, that when Booth and Herold finally crossed the river, they did not use his boat, because of the change of plans, and were forced to "put up with the first boat they found at hand".

I conclude that Smoot's boat was to be used incident to the assassination, not kidnapping, which is consistent with all the other evidence and reason I offered in my presentation.

John

[L Verge]

(04-18-2016 01:05 PM)John Fazio Wrote:  

(04-18-2016 11:56 AM)L Verge Wrote:  

(04-18-2016 10:19 AM)John Fazio Wrote:  

(04-18-2016 07:43 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Thanks, John. Mary Surratt also asked the pickets guarding the road to Surrattsville how late they would be staying that night. Doesn't this indicate she knew the boat would not really be needed that night? (In other words she knew Booth's intended route.) Thus, I would think the boat was only for the kidnapping plan (yes, I realize you feel it didn't ever exist), and not the assassination plan. Thus, I am thinking Mary just wanted Smoot out of her house and lied to him about the boat in an effort to "hurry him on his way."

Roger:

Why should one preclude the other? I have no doubt that Mrs. Surratt knew Booth's intended escape route. Thus her question to the pickets. But why does a stop at the tavern for rifles, whiskey, field glasses, etc., preclude a continuation of the escape by crossing the Potomac in Smoot's skiff? Was Smoot's skiff the craft they used to cross from Dent's Meadow? Thomas A. Jones led them to it at Dent's Meadow. It was said to be waiting for them and to be 14 feet long. That's not very long for a boat. It certainly could have been Smoot's skiff; I really don't know. But I believe the likelihood that it was Smoot's skiff is greater than the likelihood that Mrs. Surratt shooed Smoot out of her boardinghouse on the 14th with a ***** and bull story about the use of the skiff that night. Conclusion: There is nothing to indicate that the skiff was to be used in a kidnapping plot. If it was used at all, it was used to facilitate the escape of Booth and Herold after the assassination.

John

Are we trying to turn two boats into one here? The boat that was to be involved in the kidnap plot was a large, flat-bottomed boat capable of carrying a carriage (with wheels removed) and a number of men. Smoot, Brawner, Bateman (and probably lawyer Frederick Stone) knew that it was being held up King's Creek, which is several river miles from Dent's Meadow.

Thomas Jones had a rowboat to offer the fugitives at the foot of the banks above on Dent's Meadow. I believe Jones had his hired man out in that boat pretending to be fishing for several days as a cover for later use of the boat. April is shad running time in our area, and both the fish and its roe were valuable food stock. Yankee patrols would get used to seeing the boat and hopefully forget about it.

I'm not familiar with nautical terms, so I only know there are boats and ships. Not sure what a skiff is, but David Herold rowed an old-fashioned rowboat for two nights. When finally captured, he complained about his hands being sore, and they were covered with blisters.

BTW: Why would Booth go to the trouble and expense of acquiring that flat-bottomed boat and involving more people in his plans if he never intended to kidnap the President?

Laurie:

The King's Creek boat was Smoot's boat, not a different one. The fact that Smoot's name is associated with it indicates, does it not, that this is the boat that he refers to in his 1908 pamphlet. That it was to be used incident to assassination rather than kidnapping may be deduced from his writings, as follows:

1. Surratt told Smoot that "...the need of the boat would be the consequence of an event of unprecedented magnitude in the history of the country, which would startle and astound the entire world."
2.Smoot turned the boat over to Atzerodt, who placed it in charge of Bateman, who took it up King's Creek. Three months passed without Smoot being paid for the boat.
3. Smoot went to the boardinghouse at 9:30 Friday night (14th). Mary informed him "that she was positive that the boat would be used that night, and that I would get my money in a day or two.
4. After Smoot learned of the assassination, he "understood the significance of Surratt's remark when he said that there was to be an event of unprecedented importance and magnitude take place. I understood why my boat was purchased and the use it was to be put to."
5. Smoot said that "...it was the intention of Booth , Atzerodt and Herold, to ride from Washington, after the shooting, to what was known as Lock Eleven farm, located near where King's Creek crosses the public road in Charles County, there turn their horses loose, and walk to the point on King's Creek where the boat was concealed, and cross the Potomac in it". (He adds that the route of escape was changed because of Booth's broken leg, which necessitated the trip to Dr. Mudd. He adds, further, that when Booth and Herold finally crossed the river, they did not use his boat, because of the change of plans, and were forced to "put up with the first boat they found at hand".

I conclude that Smoot's boat was to be used incident to the assassination, not kidnapping, which is consistent with all the other evidence and reason I offered in my presentation.

John

I am going to go back and read specifically where Smoot said "after the shooting." (I helped to edit and prepare that reprint for publication about five years ago.) It is my belief that Smoot was trying to wiggle his way out of being charged with conspiracy to murder if anyone thought he was offering the get-away car/boat. His book and self-vindication were written about forty years after the assassination. Smoot and Weichmann managed to have a way of shifting the limelight off of their actions.

What's your take on why monkey wrenches were stored at Surratt House, if not to remove the carriage wheels? Also, just as an aside, Smoot also got the name of the farm at King's Creek wrong. It was known as Loch Leven - not Loch Eleven, as John Stanton found out for us several years ago. Since he lived nearby, one would think he knew the correct name.

That is a very pretty area outside of Port Tobacco. We used to go there to what is now the Goose Bay Marina to put my son-in-law's boat in. You can still see the serene countryside, and it is watched over by the home of one of the wealthiest men in Charles County at the time of the assassination - Barnes Compton, who held the most or the second most slaves in the county in 1860, I've been told. He also married into the wealthy Sothoron family of St. Mary's County, the head of which, Col. John Sothoron, had to run for his life and have his land confiscated when he shot a Union recruiter who trespassed on his land to recruit his slaves.

Compton was placed in Old Capitol Prison for less than a week during the Inquisition following the assassination. He went on to have a very fruitful political career. I have always thought that Barnes Compton should be one who deserves further study. The Sothoron family that he married into is part of my ancestry, so you would think I should have done more -- too old and too tired now. Large slaveholder before the war and popular politician afterwards should tell us something. This is a good biographical link to read more about this almost-forgotten man:

http://msa.maryland.gov/megafile/msa/spe...edbio.html

[RJNorton]

Laurie, Barnes Compton is also in Wikipedia and Find A Grave.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnes_Compton

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi...id=7529792

[L Verge]

(04-18-2016 04:18 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  Laurie, Barnes Compton is also in Wikipedia and Find A Grave.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnes_Compton

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi...id=7529792

I didn't realize that Compton spent the last years of his life in Laurel, Maryland. So did my great-uncle, Joseph Riley Huntt, who was the infant in arms at our home on the night of the assassination when the family heard riders going by about 1 am as he was being nursed.

Uncle Joe became a doctor and relocated to Laurel to serve its people, but also was the railroad's doctor. He lived on Prince George Street. I wonder how close that is to Washington Street where the Comptons lived? They must have known each other.

[SSlater]

(04-18-2016 01:05 PM)John Fazio Wrote:  

(04-18-2016 11:56 AM)L Verge Wrote:  

(04-18-2016 10:19 AM)John Fazio Wrote:  

(04-18-2016 07:43 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Thanks, John. Mary Surratt also asked the pickets guarding the road to Surrattsville how late they would be staying that night. Doesn't this indicate she knew the boat would not really be needed that night? (In other words she knew Booth's intended route.) Thus, I would think the boat was only for the kidnapping plan (yes, I realize you feel it didn't ever exist), and not the assassination plan. Thus, I am thinking Mary just wanted Smoot out of her house and lied to him about the boat in an effort to "hurry him on his way."

Roger:

Why should one preclude the other? I have no doubt that Mrs. Surratt knew Booth's intended escape route. Thus her question to the pickets. But why does a stop at the tavern for rifles, whiskey, field glasses, etc., preclude a continuation of the escape by crossing the Potomac in Smoot's skiff? Was Smoot's skiff the craft they used to cross from Dent's Meadow? Thomas A. Jones led them to it at Dent's Meadow. It was said to be waiting for them and to be 14 feet long. That's not very long for a boat. It certainly could have been Smoot's skiff; I really don't know. But I believe the likelihood that it was Smoot's skiff is greater than the likelihood that Mrs. Surratt shooed Smoot out of her boardinghouse on the 14th with a ***** and bull story about the use of the skiff that night. Conclusion: There is nothing to indicate that the skiff was to be used in a kidnapping plot. If it was used at all, it was used to facilitate the escape of Booth and Herold after the assassination.

John

Are we trying to turn two boats into one here? The boat that was to be involved in the kidnap plot was a large, flat-bottomed boat capable of carrying a carriage (with wheels removed) and a number of men. Smoot, Brawner, Bateman (and probably lawyer Frederick Stone) knew that it was being held up King's Creek, which is several river miles from Dent's Meadow.

Thomas Jones had a rowboat to offer the fugitives at the foot of the banks above on Dent's Meadow. I believe Jones had his hired man out in that boat pretending to be fishing for several days as a cover for later use of the boat. April is shad running time in our area, and both the fish and its roe were valuable food stock. Yankee patrols would get used to seeing the boat and hopefully forget about it.

I'm not familiar with nautical terms, so I only know there are boats and ships. Not sure what a skiff is, but David Herold rowed an old-fashioned rowboat for two nights. When finally captured, he complained about his hands being sore, and they were covered with blisters.

BTW: Why would Booth go to the trouble and expense of acquiring that flat-bottomed boat and involving more people in his plans if he never intended to kidnap the President?

Laurie:

The King's Creek boat was Smoot's boat, not a different one. The fact that Smoot's name is associated with it indicates, does it not, that this is the boat that he refers to in his 1908 pamphlet. That it was to be used incident to assassination rather than kidnapping may be deduced from his writings, as follows:

1. Surratt told Smoot that "...the need of the boat would be the consequence of an event of unprecedented magnitude in the history of the country, which would startle and astound the entire world."
2.Smoot turned the boat over to Atzerodt, who placed it in charge of Bateman, who took it up King's Creek. Three months passed without Smoot being paid for the boat.
3. Smoot went to the boardinghouse at 9:30 Friday night (14th). Mary informed him "that she was positive that the boat would be used that night, and that I would get my money in a day or two.
4. After Smoot learned of the assassination, he "understood the significance of Surratt's remark when he said that there was to be an event of unprecedented importance and magnitude take place. I understood why my boat was purchased and the use it was to be put to."
5. Smoot said that "...it was the intention of Booth , Atzerodt and Herold, to ride from Washington, after the shooting, to what was known as Lock Eleven farm, located near where King's Creek crosses the public road in Charles County, there turn their horses loose, and walk to the point on King's Creek where the boat was concealed, and cross the Potomac in it". (He adds that the route of escape was changed because of Booth's broken leg, which necessitated the trip to Dr. Mudd. He adds, further, that when Booth and Herold finally crossed the river, they did not use his boat, because of the change of plans, and were forced to "put up with the first boat they found at hand".

I conclude that Smoot's boat was to be used incident to the assassination, not kidnapping, which is consistent with all the other evidence and reason I offered in my presentation.

John

John Comment on Post 20 Your reply to Laurie.

Small Detail. If you go looking for "Lock Eleven Farm" in the Land Records, Look for "Lock Leven Farm" to find it.

[John Fazio]

(04-18-2016 04:00 PM)L Verge Wrote:  

(04-18-2016 01:05 PM)John Fazio Wrote:  

(04-18-2016 11:56 AM)L Verge Wrote:  

(04-18-2016 10:19 AM)John Fazio Wrote:  

(04-18-2016 07:43 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Thanks, John. Mary Surratt also asked the pickets guarding the road to Surrattsville how late they would be staying that night. Doesn't this indicate she knew the boat would not really be needed that night? (In other words she knew Booth's intended route.) Thus, I would think the boat was only for the kidnapping plan (yes, I realize you feel it didn't ever exist), and not the assassination plan. Thus, I am thinking Mary just wanted Smoot out of her house and lied to him about the boat in an effort to "hurry him on his way."

Roger:

Why should one preclude the other? I have no doubt that Mrs. Surratt knew Booth's intended escape route. Thus her question to the pickets. But why does a stop at the tavern for rifles, whiskey, field glasses, etc., preclude a continuation of the escape by crossing the Potomac in Smoot's skiff? Was Smoot's skiff the craft they used to cross from Dent's Meadow? Thomas A. Jones led them to it at Dent's Meadow. It was said to be waiting for them and to be 14 feet long. That's not very long for a boat. It certainly could have been Smoot's skiff; I really don't know. But I believe the likelihood that it was Smoot's skiff is greater than the likelihood that Mrs. Surratt shooed Smoot out of her boardinghouse on the 14th with a ***** and bull story about the use of the skiff that night. Conclusion: There is nothing to indicate that the skiff was to be used in a kidnapping plot. If it was used at all, it was used to facilitate the escape of Booth and Herold after the assassination.

John

Are we trying to turn two boats into one here? The boat that was to be involved in the kidnap plot was a large, flat-bottomed boat capable of carrying a carriage (with wheels removed) and a number of men. Smoot, Brawner, Bateman (and probably lawyer Frederick Stone) knew that it was being held up King's Creek, which is several river miles from Dent's Meadow.

Thomas Jones had a rowboat to offer the fugitives at the foot of the banks above on Dent's Meadow. I believe Jones had his hired man out in that boat pretending to be fishing for several days as a cover for later use of the boat. April is shad running time in our area, and both the fish and its roe were valuable food stock. Yankee patrols would get used to seeing the boat and hopefully forget about it.

I'm not familiar with nautical terms, so I only know there are boats and ships. Not sure what a skiff is, but David Herold rowed an old-fashioned rowboat for two nights. When finally captured, he complained about his hands being sore, and they were covered with blisters.

BTW: Why would Booth go to the trouble and expense of acquiring that flat-bottomed boat and involving more people in his plans if he never intended to kidnap the President?

Laurie:

The King's Creek boat was Smoot's boat, not a different one. The fact that Smoot's name is associated with it indicates, does it not, that this is the boat that he refers to in his 1908 pamphlet. That it was to be used incident to assassination rather than kidnapping may be deduced from his writings, as follows:

1. Surratt told Smoot that "...the need of the boat would be the consequence of an event of unprecedented magnitude in the history of the country, which would startle and astound the entire world."
2.Smoot turned the boat over to Atzerodt, who placed it in charge of Bateman, who took it up King's Creek. Three months passed without Smoot being paid for the boat.
3. Smoot went to the boardinghouse at 9:30 Friday night (14th). Mary informed him "that she was positive that the boat would be used that night, and that I would get my money in a day or two.
4. After Smoot learned of the assassination, he "understood the significance of Surratt's remark when he said that there was to be an event of unprecedented importance and magnitude take place. I understood why my boat was purchased and the use it was to be put to."
5. Smoot said that "...it was the intention of Booth , Atzerodt and Herold, to ride from Washington, after the shooting, to what was known as Lock Eleven farm, located near where King's Creek crosses the public road in Charles County, there turn their horses loose, and walk to the point on King's Creek where the boat was concealed, and cross the Potomac in it". (He adds that the route of escape was changed because of Booth's broken leg, which necessitated the trip to Dr. Mudd. He adds, further, that when Booth and Herold finally crossed the river, they did not use his boat, because of the change of plans, and were forced to "put up with the first boat they found at hand".

I conclude that Smoot's boat was to be used incident to the assassination, not kidnapping, which is consistent with all the other evidence and reason I offered in my presentation.

John

I am going to go back and read specifically where Smoot said "after the shooting." (I helped to edit and prepare that reprint for publication about five years ago.) It is my belief that Smoot was trying to wiggle his way out of being charged with conspiracy to murder if anyone thought he was offering the get-away car/boat. His book and self-vindication were written about forty years after the assassination. Smoot and Weichmann managed to have a way of shifting the limelight off of their actions.

What's your take on why monkey wrenches were stored at Surratt House, if not to remove the carriage wheels? Also, just as an aside, Smoot also got the name of the farm at King's Creek wrong. It was known as Loch Leven - not Loch Eleven, as John Stanton found out for us several years ago. Since he lived nearby, one would think he knew the correct name.

That is a very pretty area outside of Port Tobacco. We used to go there to what is now the Goose Bay Marina to put my son-in-law's boat in. You can still see the serene countryside, and it is watched over by the home of one of the wealthiest men in Charles County at the time of the assassination - Barnes Compton, who held the most or the second most slaves in the county in 1860, I've been told. He also married into the wealthy Sothoron family of St. Mary's County, the head of which, Col. John Sothoron, had to run for his life and have his land confiscated when he shot a Union recruiter who trespassed on his land to recruit his slaves.

Compton was placed in Old Capitol Prison for less than a week during the Inquisition following the assassination. He went on to have a very fruitful political career. I have always thought that Barnes Compton should be one who deserves further study. The Sothoron family that he married into is part of my ancestry, so you would think I should have done more -- too old and too tired now. Large slaveholder before the war and popular politician afterwards should tell us something. This is a good biographical link to read more about this almost-forgotten man:

http://msa.maryland.gov/megafile/msa/spe...edbio.html

Laurie:

I know nothing of the wrenches. I see them as a minor impediment. They could have been there as part of a collection of tools kept at the tavern for a variety of uses. Recall that Lloyd repaired Mrs. Surratt's buggy on one of her trips to the tavern. Or they might have had something to do with Booth's deception, i.e. part of the cache of tools and weapons deposited by Surratt, Atzerodt and Herold on the 18th. In any case, to suppose that they were there for the express purpose of removing the wheels on a carriage transporting Lincoln, we must first believe that the conspirators--those who were still left--could have managed the all-but-impossible task of getting Lincoln into such a carriage and then getting him out of the city, across the bridge and all the way to Surrattsville. That's a one in a million--well, maybe a one in 10,000. I don't believe we can fairly base conclusions on such odds.

"...too old and too tired now". Me too. Well, we at least have Tidwell, Hall and Gaddy to look forward to.

John

[Pamela]

(04-19-2016 03:43 AM)John Fazio Wrote:  

(04-18-2016 04:00 PM)L Verge Wrote:  

(04-18-2016 01:05 PM)John Fazio Wrote:  

(04-18-2016 11:56 AM)L Verge Wrote:  

(04-18-2016 10:19 AM)John Fazio Wrote:  Roger:

Why should one preclude the other? I have no doubt that Mrs. Surratt knew Booth's intended escape route. Thus her question to the pickets. But why does a stop at the tavern for rifles, whiskey, field glasses, etc., preclude a continuation of the escape by crossing the Potomac in Smoot's skiff? Was Smoot's skiff the craft they used to cross from Dent's Meadow? Thomas A. Jones led them to it at Dent's Meadow. It was said to be waiting for them and to be 14 feet long. That's not very long for a boat. It certainly could have been Smoot's skiff; I really don't know. But I believe the likelihood that it was Smoot's skiff is greater than the likelihood that Mrs. Surratt shooed Smoot out of her boardinghouse on the 14th with a ***** and bull story about the use of the skiff that night. Conclusion: There is nothing to indicate that the skiff was to be used in a kidnapping plot. If it was used at all, it was used to facilitate the escape of Booth and Herold after the assassination.

John

Are we trying to turn two boats into one here? The boat that was to be involved in the kidnap plot was a large, flat-bottomed boat capable of carrying a carriage (with wheels removed) and a number of men. Smoot, Brawner, Bateman (and probably lawyer Frederick Stone) knew that it was being held up King's Creek, which is several river miles from Dent's Meadow.

Thomas Jones had a rowboat to offer the fugitives at the foot of the banks above on Dent's Meadow. I believe Jones had his hired man out in that boat pretending to be fishing for several days as a cover for later use of the boat. April is shad running time in our area, and both the fish and its roe were valuable food stock. Yankee patrols would get used to seeing the boat and hopefully forget about it.

I'm not familiar with nautical terms, so I only know there are boats and ships. Not sure what a skiff is, but David Herold rowed an old-fashioned rowboat for two nights. When finally captured, he complained about his hands being sore, and they were covered with blisters.

BTW: Why would Booth go to the trouble and expense of acquiring that flat-bottomed boat and involving more people in his plans if he never intended to kidnap the President?

Laurie:

The King's Creek boat was Smoot's boat, not a different one. The fact that Smoot's name is associated with it indicates, does it not, that this is the boat that he refers to in his 1908 pamphlet. That it was to be used incident to assassination rather than kidnapping may be deduced from his writings, as follows:

1. Surratt told Smoot that "...the need of the boat would be the consequence of an event of unprecedented magnitude in the history of the country, which would startle and astound the entire world."
2.Smoot turned the boat over to Atzerodt, who placed it in charge of Bateman, who took it up King's Creek. Three months passed without Smoot being paid for the boat.
3. Smoot went to the boardinghouse at 9:30 Friday night (14th). Mary informed him "that she was positive that the boat would be used that night, and that I would get my money in a day or two.
4. After Smoot learned of the assassination, he "understood the significance of Surratt's remark when he said that there was to be an event of unprecedented importance and magnitude take place. I understood why my boat was purchased and the use it was to be put to."
5. Smoot said that "...it was the intention of Booth , Atzerodt and Herold, to ride from Washington, after the shooting, to what was known as Lock Eleven farm, located near where King's Creek crosses the public road in Charles County, there turn their horses loose, and walk to the point on King's Creek where the boat was concealed, and cross the Potomac in it". (He adds that the route of escape was changed because of Booth's broken leg, which necessitated the trip to Dr. Mudd. He adds, further, that when Booth and Herold finally crossed the river, they did not use his boat, because of the change of plans, and were forced to "put up with the first boat they found at hand".

I conclude that Smoot's boat was to be used incident to the assassination, not kidnapping, which is consistent with all the other evidence and reason I offered in my presentation.

John

I am going to go back and read specifically where Smoot said "after the shooting." (I helped to edit and prepare that reprint for publication about five years ago.) It is my belief that Smoot was trying to wiggle his way out of being charged with conspiracy to murder if anyone thought he was offering the get-away car/boat. His book and self-vindication were written about forty years after the assassination. Smoot and Weichmann managed to have a way of shifting the limelight off of their actions.

What's your take on why monkey wrenches were stored at Surratt House, if not to remove the carriage wheels? Also, just as an aside, Smoot also got the name of the farm at King's Creek wrong. It was known as Loch Leven - not Loch Eleven, as John Stanton found out for us several years ago. Since he lived nearby, one would think he knew the correct name.

That is a very pretty area outside of Port Tobacco. We used to go there to what is now the Goose Bay Marina to put my son-in-law's boat in. You can still see the serene countryside, and it is watched over by the home of one of the wealthiest men in Charles County at the time of the assassination - Barnes Compton, who held the most or the second most slaves in the county in 1860, I've been told. He also married into the wealthy Sothoron family of St. Mary's County, the head of which, Col. John Sothoron, had to run for his life and have his land confiscated when he shot a Union recruiter who trespassed on his land to recruit his slaves.

Compton was placed in Old Capitol Prison for less than a week during the Inquisition following the assassination. He went on to have a very fruitful political career. I have always thought that Barnes Compton should be one who deserves further study. The Sothoron family that he married into is part of my ancestry, so you would think I should have done more -- too old and too tired now. Large slaveholder before the war and popular politician afterwards should tell us something. This is a good biographical link to read more about this almost-forgotten man:

http://msa.maryland.gov/megafile/msa/spe...edbio.html

Laurie:

I know nothing of the wrenches. I see them as a minor impediment. They could have been there as part of a collection of tools kept at the tavern for a variety of uses. Recall that Lloyd repaired Mrs. Surratt's buggy on one of her trips to the tavern. Or they might have had something to do with Booth's deception, i.e. part of the cache of tools and weapons deposited by Surratt, Atzerodt and Herold on the 18th. In any case, to suppose that they were there for the express purpose of removing the wheels on a carriage transporting Lincoln, we must first believe that the conspirators--those who were still left--could have managed the all-but-impossible task of getting Lincoln into such a carriage and then getting him out of the city, across the bridge and all the way to Surrattsville. That's a one in a million--well, maybe a one in 10,000. I don't believe we can fairly base conclusions on such odds.

"...too old and too tired now". Me too. Well, we at least have Tidwell, Hall and Gaddy to look forward to.

John

Laurie, I think it distorts the facts to attempt to liken Smoot and his actions to Weichmann and his actions. I assume Smoot was a rebel sympathizer and Weichmann was not. John Surratt, Mary Surratt and Booth undertook several actions to compromise Weichmann as a potential witness and to give the appearance of Weichmann having involvement in the conspiracy to assassinate President Lincoln. Weichmann didn't try to "shift the limelight off (his) actions" but rather to expose and clarify the actions of those, including Mary, who he never could have imagined was capable of manipulating his friendship and jeopardizing his future, in order to enable their plot.

[JMadonna]

(04-07-2016 04:43 PM)SSlater Wrote:  Somewhere after the 10th, Booth went to New York (for Orders?) Upon his return, he wired Surratt "to Come here - immediately, the plan has changed." (No known reply). Later, Surratt learned of the assassination, but dallied in Elmira, and arrived back in Montreal on the 18th. (Booth had tried to rally his squad, for the new plan, but they balked. (( I'm beginning to understand their thinking)) Murder was not in their thinking)

Did Booth involve Mary Surratt, Dr. Mudd and the Secret Line - in the murder, after the fact?

Surratt and Slater never knew that there was to be an assassination - until it was a done-deal.

What are your thoughts on this?

“It never occurred to me for an instant that it could have been Booth or any of the parties to our conspiracy, for the simple reason that I had never heard anything regarding assassination spoken of during my intercourse with them. I had good reason to believe that there was another conspiracy afloat in Washington: in fact we all knew it.”
- John Surratt, New York Times, February 7, 1909

Jefferson Davis remark upon hearing of the assassination:

" If it were to be done at all, it were better that it were well done; and if the same had been done to Andy Johnson, the beast, and to Secretary Stanton, the job would then be complete.”
Pitman; p. 47

I believe that Mary Surratt's message to 'get the shooting irons ready' was meant to get word down the line that the execution of the plot (kidnapping) was imminent. IMO Neither Mary nor Mudd was aware the plot had changed