How often does it happen that even though someone's environment observes someone might suffer from such as PTSD in a way that one fears he might become dangerous to others or himself, a tragedy finally happens because he/she had refused treatment? Can you act against someone's will before something happens, only based upon "suspicion"? Can you force someone to get diagnosed?

I was also thinking of the crash of a German aircraft earlier this year that was deliberately caused by the co-pilot. His environment previously had observed he had suicidal tendencies.

I believe Eva means that, if Rathbone could have been diagnosed and received help for his PTSD, as he might have in the modern era, might this have prevented him from murdering Clara.

(06-28-2015 05:21 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Caleb spoke about the book at our 2014 conference and gave a good explanation as to why Rathbone might be diagnosed with PTSD in today's medical world. That kind of "presentism" I approve of...

The thing I found most interesting about Caleb's talk was he said that Clara's initial statement (reported in the Public Ledger, May 5, 1865 and purported to have been given to Stanton inside the Petersen house) and her official affidavit given a few days later, differed. The first stating that Booth had appeared in the box earlier in the evening and also stating then when Booth entered the second and fatal time, Rathbone arose and asked the intruder his business, Booth rushed past him without replying and shot the President. In this second statement there is apparently no mention of Rathbone having risen and spoken to Booth before he shot Lincoln. Within that second and official affidavit, it says that Clara "read the foregoing affidavit of Major Rathbone, and knows the contents thereof." As Caleb states, she would have also had time between the statements to converse with Rathbone and "synch" the stories. This is discussed in Caleb's book on p. 103-105. Did Clara change her story to conform with what Henry said? Who knows. Did the circumstances of that night affect him the rest of his life? PTSD or no, how could it not?

(06-29-2015 06:54 PM)STS Lincolnite Wrote:  . . . when Booth entered the second and fatal time, Rathbone arose and asked the intruder his business, Booth rushed past him without replying and shot the President.

First I've ever heard of this scenario, but it sounds plausible and could certainly explain why Rathbone seemed to have felt such a degree of guilt afterwards.

At the same time, I don't think Rathbone could be blamed for what occurred that night; I'm sure it all happened so quickly that a heroic response on his part would have been nothing short of a miracle.

Fascinating.

(06-29-2015 06:40 PM)Rogerm Wrote:  I believe Eva means that, if Rathbone could have been diagnosed and received help for his PTSD, as he might have in the modern era, might this have prevented him from murdering Clara.

As a practicing therapist for over thirty years now I would have to say yes. I have treated multiple patients with PTSD. It is often a long process. It presents an even more challenge when patients have multiple traumas that result in layers that have to be dealt with. My guess is that Rathbone had multiple traumas. What made it especially severe was that he could never really get away from remembering the Lincoln assassination because of the notoriety of the event- everyone knew about it. That coupled with his sense of personal guilt (however wrongly) over not saving Lincoln made his case extreme.

Thanks Roger and Bill - actually I meant to ask exactly the opposite. How often would/does it happen that although the environment nowadays "knows" (observes) someone suffers from traumata, PTSD or similar, a tragedy can NOT be prevented because the person refuses any help/treatment? What does the law say? If someone refuses treatment it's difficult to act upon assumption something could happen, isn't it?

(06-29-2015 06:54 PM)STS Lincolnite Wrote:  The first stating that Booth had appeared in the box earlier in the evening

I really wonder about this. With all the eyewitnesses we have who saw him approach the box around c.10:15 P.M. I do not understand why no one other than Clara reported an earlier visit. Was Clara confused? I don't know, but I do wonder about this aspect of her account.

(06-29-2015 09:16 PM)LincolnMan Wrote:  It presents an even more challenge when patients have multiple traumas that result in layers that have to be dealt with.

On p. 39 Caleb writes, "He may have had difficulty managing feelings of anxiety even as a child. His father's death may have precipitated a nightmare of emotions for him, but he was able to hide away in a large house, with little else to worry about. An affluent upbringing provided Henry the means to escape...Rathbone's station in life rarely forced a need to overcome hardship, and it's possible that an underlying mental illness was present all along."

If this be true then is it not possible that Henry was likely headed for problems as an adult even without the war/assassination?

(06-30-2015 03:53 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Thanks Roger and Bill - actually I meant to ask exactly the opposite. How often would/does it happen that although the environment nowadays "knows" (observes) someone suffers from traumata, PTSD or similar, a tragedy can NOT be prevented because the person refuses any help/treatment? What does the law say? If someone refuses treatment it's difficult to act upon assumption something could happen, isn't it?

The individuals who refuse treatment have a right to do so. Unless there is imminent danger to themselves or others nothing can be done, generally speaking. As far as how many people there are refusing treatment- that remains unknown.

(06-30-2015 04:14 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(06-29-2015 06:54 PM)STS Lincolnite Wrote:  The first stating that Booth had appeared in the box earlier in the evening

I really wonder about this. With all the eyewitnesses we have who saw him approach the box around c.10:15 P.M. I do not understand why no one other than Clara reported an earlier visit. Was Clara confused? I don't know, but I do wonder about this aspect of her account.

(06-29-2015 09:16 PM)LincolnMan Wrote:  It presents an even more challenge when patients have multiple traumas that result in layers that have to be dealt with.

On p. 39 Caleb writes, "He may have had difficulty managing feelings of anxiety even as a child. His father's death may have precipitated a nightmare of emotions for him, but he was able to hide away in a large house, with little else to worry about. An affluent upbringing provided Henry the means to escape...Rathbone's station in life rarely forced a need to overcome hardship, and it's possible that an underlying mental illness was present all along."

If this be true then is it not possible that Henry was likely headed for problems as an adult even without the war/assassination?

It is possible Roger. Of course, everyone handles stress and trauma in their own way. For some- a "tipping point" is reached and a mental illness break occurs. By the way, the average age of onset of mental illness here in America today is in ones early twenties.

Interesting book.
The book points out that Rathbone probably had the worst view of the play of almost anyone in the theater.
If that was the case, and it had been me sitting there, I would have probably fallen asleep sometime during the play.

I found the information regarding Henry and Clara's life after the assassination interesting, especially their time in Europe.
For more on that, Eva has done some interesting research that she has shared on the forum here
https://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussi...t=Rathbone

The book is well illustrated, print size makes this very readable, but the book is missing an index.
Caleb does a nice job of telling us "what ever happened to" Henry and Clara, and filling in some of the gaps in the history of Lincoln's assassination.

IMO not a must have, but a nice to have book regarding the assassination. Available at an affordable price, and worth purchasing.
https://www.amazon.com/Worst-Seat-House-...+the+house

(01-05-2019 08:30 AM)Gene C Wrote:  Interesting book.
The book points out that Rathbone probably had the worst view of the play of almost anyone in the theater.
If that was the case, and it had been me sitting there, I would have probably fallen asleep sometime during the play.

I found the information regarding Henry and Clara's life after the assassination interesting, especially their time in Europe.
For more on that, Eva has done some interesting research that she has shared on the forum here
https://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussi...t=Rathbone

The book is well illustrated, print size makes this very readable, but the book is missing an index.
Caleb does a nice job of telling us "what ever happened to" Henry and Clara, and filling in some of the gaps in the history of Lincoln's assassination.

IMO not a must have, but a nice to have book regarding the assassination. Available at an affordable price, and worth purchasing.
https://www.amazon.com/Worst-Seat-House-...+the+house

The author of this book was a featured speaker at a Surratt conference about four years ago and freely admits that he is not a professional historian - despite having done some good research and also presenting one important point: What Henry Rathbone experienced that night might well have led to him being a victim of what we term Post-Traumatic Stress. Sure makes sense to me. Another example of things from the past being brought to light in future generations...