Here is another of the later accounts. It's from the Sunday, June 18, 1893, edition of the Chicago Inter-Ocean. The man's name is J. E. Coyel. He said he was sitting with a friend in the 3rd row of the Orchestra level. Part of Coyel's statement says:

"Her (Keene's) precise language as she strode to the front of the stage, with outstretched hand and in a commanding voice, was, 'Order, gentlemen: order, gentlemen.' She afterward obtained a glass of water from some source, and, as I was near at hand, I helped her down from the stage and she passed up to the box where the President was dying: the report at the time was that she took the dying President's head into her lap, the graphic description of which event will be remembered by all those who read the account at the time."

Obviously we have so many conflicting statements it's hard to know what to believe, but if this one is accurate, it would seem to support Ferguson's statement that Keene didn't get to the box via the back route.

(09-17-2014 05:01 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Here is another of the later accounts. It's from the Sunday, June 18, 1893, edition of the Chicago Inter-Ocean. The man's name is J. E. Coyel. He said he was sitting with a friend in the 3rd row of the Orchestra level. Part of Coyel's statement says:

"Her (Keene's) precise language as she strode to the front of the stage, with outstretched hand and in a commanding voice, was, 'Order, gentlemen: order, gentlemen.' She afterward obtained a glass of water from some source, and, as I was near at hand, I helped her down from the stage and she passed up to the box where the President was dying: the report at the time was that she took the dying President's head into her lap, the graphic description of which event will be remembered by all those who read the account at the time."

Obviously we have so many conflicting statements it's hard to know what to believe, but if this one is accurate, it would seem to support Ferguson's statement that Keene didn't get to the box via the back route.

Roger,

if Coyel is right than Keene followed the Ferguson way. Okay, Laura Keene was helped down from the stage by Coyel and “passed up to the box”, but did she reached that box? Your quote says: “the report at the time was that she took the dying President's head into her lap”, so Coyell did not witness that. He had it from a report. What report? Was this report based on personal opinion, personal interpretations, personal points of view, was it based on assumptions? Or was this report based on emotions? In all those cases Coyel’s statement is only based on subjective information and IMO ill-suited for describing what really happened. I’m sorry to say, but most (maybe all) newspaper articles, biographies and “statements of ONE person” are always subjective. Also in our modern time, all blogs are subjective, even all comments (e.g. on internet). The perception of one person is always governed by his (or her) senses, which are limited, flawed and always “coloured”. You can even ask if an objective reality exists? IMO yes, only if at least TWO persons (not related in any way and unknown to each other) describe exactly the same with exactly the same observations. Only that is fact-based information and in that way verifiable truth. In the “Keene-in-the-box” discussion this verifiable truth is lacking. There are too much conflicting statements of individuals. So is Coyel saying that Keene “strode to the front of the stage” and said in a commanding voice 'Order, gentlemen: order, gentlemen.' But eyewitness Thomas Sherman (who climbed the stage) saw how Laura walked to the midst of the fore stage, and screamed: "For God's sake, gentlemen, be quiet; keep cool". What is the truth? If you see in a forrest a fallen tree and someone is asking you “did it make a sound”?” when it fell, you probably will say “yes”. But suppose that you see the blood stained skirt of Laura Keene, and someone is asking you “is that Lincolns blood?, what will be your answer than? Anyway, both answers will be based on your personal opinion and always based on your assumption. Did Laura Keene follow the route of Ferguson OR the back route of Gourlay? I think we’ll never will know that. Because this also is based on personal opinions, personal perceptions and assumptions. I only can say what I think (it’s only my subjective opinion). I think: NO (for the Ferguson route) and NO (for the Gourlay route). Re. Ferguson: there were ca. 1700 people in parquet and dress circle and there was complete chaos. Soldiers closed the theatre, men were immediately arrested, some want to burn the theatre, nobody was on his seat, rumors that Johnson, Seward and Stanton were murdered too, rumors that Mosby’s rangers were in town, etc, etc, complete pandemonium. In the overflow of crowd it was in my opinion impossible for Keene to reach the box via the theatre. I even doubt that she was able to get off the stage in full dress gown. And the back route? Don’t forget that FOUR children of Gourlay were there! His daughters Jeannie and Margaret were listed in the playbill (resp. as Mary Trenchard and Skillet). Thomas (a teenager) and Robert (his younger brother) were in the audience (orchestra level). Gourlay’s son-in-law William Withers Jr. (he married Jeannie within 5 days) was stabbed by Booth. Would you leave your four children and future son-in-law in this pandemonium? I think a father does not. Would a father leave his children to accompany an actress to the box, amid the chaos of the theatre that evening (with no one knowing what was or would happening), or would he protect his children, who were maybe in danger? And would he help to carry Lincoln to Petersen’s? Would he took one of the flags draped over the front of the State Box and place this flag beneath Lincoln's head as a cushion? I really believe not. Is it harsh to say that these are all tales, inclusive the “Keene-in-the-box” story. Is it harsh to say that when the story was told by who knows who, the story continued to get embellished into a full-blown legend?

Comments?

(09-17-2014 08:50 AM)loetar44 Wrote:  There are too much conflicting statements of individuals.

Kees, I won't comment on everything - just one. Remember Bronson, on April 16, 1865, wrote his sister about seeing Keene in the box, and people wondered if Bronson was somehow confused by what he had read in the two days after the assassination. And now Coyel refers to "the graphic description of which event will be remembered by all those who read the account at the time." What "graphic description" is this? So I would ask the same as you - "What report?" Did at least some of the newspaper accounts, either Saturday (the 15th) or Sunday (the 16th), carry articles on the assassination which specifically mentioned Keene was in the box?

How much time (estimatedly) passed in the box from the shot till A. L. was carried out of the box? I remember reading testimonies (think it was Rathbone and/or one of the doctors, can't check my books right now) that (I believe) went like "the time from the shot till he was placed in the bed didn't exceed 20 (30?) minutes". Was there any statement about how much time passed in the box? If not, what would you think?

I believe that the time between when Lincoln was shot and when he was removed was 20-25 minutes. I have found it interesting that when they took the President out of the theatre, they didn't have a clear destination in mind.

(09-18-2014 06:09 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  How much time (estimatedly) passed in the box from the shot till A. L. was carried out of the box? I remember reading testimonies (think it was Rathbone and/or one of the doctors, can't check my books right now) that (I believe) went like "the time from the shot till he was placed in the bed didn't exceed 20 (30?) minutes". Was there any statement about how much time passed in the box? If not, what would you think?

Eva,

See post #45 in this thread. I posed a similar question - in a lot more wordy fasion (sorry about that!).

Leale states 20 minutes from time shot until place in bed at Peterson house. I think the time could have been anywhere from 20-40 minutes.

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(09-18-2014 06:20 AM)Jim Garrett Wrote:  I believe that the time between when Lincoln was shot and when he was removed was 20-25 minutes. I have found it interesting that when they took the President out of the theatre, they didn't have a clear destination in mind.

Jim, I find this intersting as well. At one time (of course I can't remember where) I read that the reason he was removed without a specific place to go was that people felt it would be an emabarrassment to the legacy of the President for him to die in such a "low place" as a theatre. The main aim was to get him out of Ford's - and get him anywhere else - in case he died quickly.

After Lincoln was carried down the steps in the theatre and then across the street to the home of William Petersen, where was Laura Keene at that moment? At

http://www.texasescapes.com/MaggieVanOst...itness.htm

I just read: “Mary stood in the doorway [of William Clark’s room in Petersen’s House] along with Laura Keene (female lead of Our American Cousin) and Clara Harris.” Was Laura Keene in Petersen’s House too? Did she follow (along with Mary, Clara and Maj. Rathbone) the men who carried the president across the street? I always thought Keene went to the St. Patrick’s Catholic Church, one block to the north of the theatre, and after that to her room in the Metropolitan Hotel. I can’t exactly recall, but I thought her biographer Ben Graf Henneke reported that.

In Reck's book there is no mention of Keene following the group into the Petersen House.

In Worst Seat in the House, Caleb Stephens, a member here, writes, "As the men in the front carried Lincoln through the dress circle and down the stairs, Henry, Clara, and Mary Todd followed closely behind." No mention at all of Keene with the group.

In contrast, on the NPS website, it says, "Assisted by Major Rathbone, Miss Harris, and Laura Keene, Mrs. Lincoln followed her husband across to the Petersen House."

http://npshistory.com/handbooks/historical/3b/hh3e.htm

(09-18-2014 09:13 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  In Reck's book there is no mention of Keene following the group into the Petersen House.

In Worst Seat in the House, Caleb Stephens, a member here, writes, "As the men in the front carried Lincoln through the dress circle and down the stairs, Henry, Clara, and Mary Todd followed closely behind." No mention at all of Keene with the group.

In contrast, on the NPS website, it says, "Assisted by Major Rathbone, Miss Harris, and Laura Keene, Mrs. Lincoln followed her husband across to the Petersen House."

http://npshistory.com/handbooks/historical/3b/hh3e.htm

Thanks Roger, I think Laura was not in Petersen's House. What do you think?

My best guess is to agree with you. But, like so many Lincoln assassination facts, I am not 100% certain.

More and more I depend on Tom Bogar's Backstage at the Lincoln Assassination for details not found (or difficult to find) in other sources. Tom makes no mention of Keene going to the Petersen House. Rather he has her going backstage and washing the blood from her face and hands. Then, along with her husband, John Lutz, they "slipped out of the theater by the alley door and made their way east on F Street to their room at the Metropolitan Hotel. No one hindered or detained them."

(09-18-2014 07:55 AM)STS Lincolnite Wrote:  

(09-18-2014 06:09 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  How much time (estimatedly) passed in the box from the shot till A. L. was carried out of the box? I remember reading testimonies (think it was Rathbone and/or one of the doctors, can't check my books right now) that (I believe) went like "the time from the shot till he was placed in the bed didn't exceed 20 (30?) minutes". Was there any statement about how much time passed in the box? If not, what would you think?

Eva,

See post #45 in this thread. I posed a similar question - in a lot more wordy fasion (sorry about that!).

Leale states 20 minutes from time shot until place in bed at Peterson house. I think the time could have been anywhere from 20-40 minutes.

Thanks, Scott, most likely it was this statement I had in mind. (Sorry I oversaw/forgot your posting.)

I will call upon the spector of Kathy Canavan. She will certainly know the answer to whether Laura Keene was at the Petersen. I believe Keene was in the front parlor to comfort Mrs. L.

As I love to point out, there is no collections of experts on the Lincoln Assassination that can be found anywhere that can compare to the braintrust found here.

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I don't think we have the issue of a "rubber parlor". I don't think too many people wanted to be in the front parlor with the Wildcat of the White House. Even in such pitiful circumstances, I don't think anyone really wanted to be with Mary. Pitiful circumstances indeed.

Ever heard of Lieut. Charles H. Jones? He said he witnessed Lincoln’s assassination and claimed (telling his account in April 1915 – 50 years after the assassination) that he was for a short moment in the presidential box, that Laura Keene entered the box when he was there and that someone came on stage and stopped the pursuit of John Wilkes Booth …

The New York Call of April 14, 1915 printed Jones' story.

1) I leaped over the gallery and balcony rails, swung into the president’s box just in time to see Major Rathbone remove his hands from the president’s head. They were covered with blood. I knew then the emancipator was dying.

2) I remained only a few minutes in the Lincoln box, but before I left Laura Keene had reached the dying president. Her beautiful white silk gown was soon vivid with the blood of the martyr whose head she held in her arms… One actor assassinated Lincoln. Another actor ministered to him as he died.

3) Lieut. Charles H. Jones, then connected with the quartermaster’s department at Washington, sprang from the gallery in time to hear a man on the stage announce, “The assassin is captured,” and thus prevent immediate pursuit of Booth.

Does Jones’ eyewitness account have any validity? I never heard or read that a man came on stage a few seconds after Booth had fled the theatre and that this man announced that the assassin had been captured ???? The article says that this man was in evening clothes ….

And I never heard or read that a Ltn. Charles H. Jones was ever in the box ????

Hi folks,

Just a little O.T., but one of the reasons I've always found the idea of Keene cradling the dying AL in her lap as improbable is the presence of Mary. She was such a notoriously possessive woman where her husband was concerned...would she have permitted a total stranger to take such liberties while she was present?

Or was she in such a state of shock she probably took no notice?(Assuming it even happened at all?)

(09-20-2014 11:55 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Hi folks,

Just a little O.T., but one of the reasons I've always found the idea of Keene cradling the dying AL in her lap as improbable is the presence of Mary. She was such a notoriously possessive woman where her husband was concerned...would she have permitted a total stranger to take such liberties while she was present?

Or was she in such a state of shock she probably took no notice?(Assuming it even happened at all?)

She was hysterical and in shock. It may also be that the doctor had allowed Keene to "assist", and therefore Mary may have not wanted to interfere in any treatment. Overall, Mary is a person that should be more pitied than scorned.