(05-22-2014 08:12 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  In fact there is a letter in existence where he expresses interest in Owens even during the time Rutledge was still alive,

Hi Toia. This was new to me; I don't ever recall seeing such a letter written by Lincoln while Ann was still living. Can you talk more about this? Many thanks. Are you referring to a Lincoln letter written in 1833, 1834, or 1835 (prior to August 25th)? Maybe I am misunderstanding what you said - if so, please excuse.

(05-22-2014 08:12 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  I personally have never doubted the Rutledge romance. What I do scoff at is the idea that she affected AL for the rest of his life, or that she was necessarily his great love.

Herndon wrote in his book "Herndon's Life of Lincoln" at pages 113-14:

"[Lincoln's] condition finally became so alarming, his friends consulted together and sent him to the house of a kind friend, Bowlin Greene, who lived in a secluded spot hidden by the hills, a mile south of town. Here he remained for some weeks under the care and watchful eye of this noble friend, who gradually brought him back to reason, or at least a realization of his true condition. In the years that followed Mr. Lincoln never forgot the kindness of Greene through those weeks of suffering and peril. In 1842, when the latter died, and Lincoln was selected by the Masonic lodge to deliver the funeral oration, he broke down in the midst of his address. 'His voice was choked with deep emotion; he stood a few moments while his lips quivered in the effort toform the words of fervent praise he sought to utter, and the tears ran down his yellow and shrivelled cheeks. Every heart was hushed at the spectacle. After repeated efforts he found it impossible to speak, and strode away, bitterly sobbing, to the widow's carriage and was driven from the scene.'"

Anne Ruttledge died August 25, 1835. Greene's funeral took place 7 years later in 1842.

Joshua Speed observed regarding the long letter that Lincoln wrote to the famous physician Dr. Daniel Drake of Cincinnati in December 1840 or January 1841 (at least five years following Anne's death): "I think he (Lincoln) must have informed Dr. Drake of his early love for Miss Rutledge, as there was a part of the letter which he would not read."

I absolutely believe that Anne Rutledge was the love of Lincoln's life and that her loss affected Abraham Lincoln for the rest of his life. I also believe that had Lincoln married Anne Rutledge, he never would have been President of the United States. Subsequent events, including the marriage to Mary Todd, as they actually occurred were the course of history.

(05-22-2014 08:12 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  I personally have never doubted the Rutledge romance. What I do scoff at is the idea that she affected AL for the rest of his life, or that she was necessarily his great love.

I agree on this.

(05-23-2014 11:31 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  I also believe that had Lincoln married Anne Rutledge, he never would have been President of the United States. Subsequent events, including the marriage to Mary Todd, as they actually occurred were the course of history.

I agree on this, too, though I wouldn't say "never", but "most likely not".

(05-23-2014 11:31 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  I absolutely believe that Anne Rutledge was the love of Lincoln's life...

How do you define "the love of Lincoln's life"?

Everyone loves in a different way, and one can love someone in many different ways and depths, and some can't understand others feel things in a different way.
So, what is the love of one's life? The deepest? The longest? The one that involves the most parameters? For me it would be the deepest, and thenceforth lifelong persistent one. It would imply that there could no further follow. (Your definition might be a different one - then please tell!)

To illustrate: I think most people who marry believe at that very moment they marry the love of their life. For quite many lucky ones it turns out to be like that, but in many cases it does not. IMO it needs quite a long time of proving (a great portion of lifetime) to make this statement a safe and certain one.

Since I believe Abraham Lincoln did love Mary in one or several ways, a love that followed the "Rutledge romance", this would for my definition be inconsistant with one another that Ann R. was Lincoln's love of his life. For the same reason I believe that even if there existed telltale letter passages to Dr. Drake, they were a product of his mindset at that very time - but life went on, and brought a new love®, and in the wedding ring he gave to Mary was engraved "Love is Eternal" (words that match "love of one's life" quite well, don't they?).

The following is AFAIK the only review (to Isaac Cogdal, before he left Springfield for Washington) on his feelings for Ann Rutledge that dates from after he had met Mary and thus could compare:

"I did really - I ran off the track: it was my first. I loved the woman dearly & sacredly: she was a handsome girl - would have made a good loving wife - was natural and quite intellectual, though not highly Educated, I did honestly - & truly love the girl & think often - often of her now." (Wilson/Davis: "Herndon's Informants", p. 383 - Letter from Robert B. Rutledge to William H. Herndon).

This is, I think, exactly how it was, his first love, for most people a special one in lifelong memory, but nevertheless not necessarily the love #1 - A. Lincoln did not say she was the love of his life.

I think the New Salem time was for him what in German we would figuratively call his "Sturm- und Drangzeit", literally "Storm and Drive Period". ("Sturm und Drang" was a proto-Romantic movement in German literature and music, late 1760ies to the early 1780ies, in which individual subjectivity and, in particular, extremes of emotion were given free expression in reaction to the perceived constraints of rationalism imposed by the Enlightenment and associated aesthetic movements.) This period with all it's emotions IMO ended with his marriage, but his marriage persisted till the end of his life.

As for his love to (for?) Mary - allegedly, Abraham Lincoln said to a correspondent of the "Christian Register" at a White House reception: "My wife is as handsome as when she was a young girl and I, a poor nobody, fell in love with her, and what is more, I have never fallen out."...after over twenty years! Of course we don't know how reliable this account is, but the same goes (AFAIK) in the end for all we have on this topic.

However, we can only speculate and believe about this topic, and I think what we (want to) believe about "Lincoln's love life" depends a great deal on our own experiences, dreams, and ideals. So - this is what I believe so far or want to believe. (But I think I argued it quite well.)

PS: One statement by Yoko Ono on John Lennon after his death illustrates my idea of "the love of one's life" quite well: "He was my husband, he was my lover, he was my friend, he was my partner. And - he was an old soldier that fought with me." (I think Abraham and Mary Lincoln did that- they fought together for a long time.)

(05-23-2014 04:03 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 08:12 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  In fact there is a letter in existence where he expresses interest in Owens even during the time Rutledge was still alive,

Hi Toia. This was new to me; I don't ever recall seeing such a letter written by Lincoln while Ann was still living. Can you talk more about this? Many thanks. Are you referring to a Lincoln letter written in 1833, 1834, or 1835 (prior to August 25th)? Maybe I am misunderstanding what you said - if so, please excuse.

Hey Roger!

It was written sometime in 1832-1833 to Mary Owen's sister, something to the effect that he wouldn't mind seeing her again. He already knew Ann R. in 1832 didn't he? Seems like ol' Abe fell in love pretty easily! I will dig through my zillion or so Lincoln books over the weekend and try to find the excerpt-

Eva Elizabeth,

I really can't add much to your beautiful post, you took the words out of my mouth. The inscription inside MTL's wedding band pretty much says it all as far as I am concerned. Even if the anecdote about AL telling the Christian Monitor journalist about his enduring love for his wife is apocryphal, you can't argue that what he inscribed in her ring isn't compelling evidence. He could have simply given her a wedding band with nothing in it, couldn't he have?

There is also a little known story about a necklace with a heart made of diamonds that AL gave Mary in April 1862 to cheer her up after Willie's death. According to Lincoln family tradition, he presented it to her with the words "You have my heart". It was commissioned by Tiffany of NYC and cost $500, a king's ransom in those days.

I think it's in the Lincoln Library now. I first saw it on Youtube, but you can also Google info about it. This is not the gift of a man who didn't love his wife deeply, or who considered her some type of booby prize.

BTW...Yoko's description of her relationship with John Lennon is strikingly similar to what Mary Todd Lincoln wrote about AL a few weeks after his murder...."....he was always everything to me...husband, lover, father...my all. Truly my all".

(Excerpt from the anthology of MTL's letters published by Linda Leavitt-Turner)

(05-23-2014 06:46 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 08:12 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  I personally have never doubted the Rutledge romance. What I do scoff at is the idea that she affected AL for the rest of his life, or that she was necessarily his great love.

I agree on this.

(05-23-2014 11:31 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  I also believe that had Lincoln married Anne Rutledge, he never would have been President of the United States. Subsequent events, including the marriage to Mary Todd, as they actually occurred were the course of history.

I agree on this, too, though I wouldn't say "never", but "most likely not".

(05-23-2014 11:31 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  I absolutely believe that Anne Rutledge was the love of Lincoln's life...

How do you define "the love of Lincoln's life"?

Everyone loves in a different way, and one can love someone in many different ways and depths, and some can't understand others feel things in a different way.
So, what is the love of one's life? The deepest? The longest? The one that involves the most parameters? For me it would be the deepest, and thenceforth lifelong persistent one. It would imply that there could no further follow. (Your definition might be a different one - then please tell!)

To illustrate: I think most people who marry believe at that very moment they marry the love of their life. For quite many lucky ones it turns out to be like that, but in many cases it does not. IMO it needs quite a long time of proving (a great portion of lifetime) to make this statement a safe and certain one.

Since I believe Abraham Lincoln did love Mary in one or several ways, a love that followed the "Rutledge romance", this would for my definition be inconsistant with one another that Ann R. was Lincoln's love of his life. For the same reason I believe that even if there existed telltale letter passages to Dr. Drake, they were a product of his mindset at that very time - but life went on, and brought a new love®, and in the wedding ring he gave to Mary was engraved "Love is Eternal" (words that match "love of one's life" quite well, don't they?).

The following is AFAIK the only review (to Isaac Cogdal, before he left Springfield for Washington) on his feelings for Ann Rutledge that dates from after he had met Mary and thus could compare:

"I did really - I ran off the track: it was my first. I loved the woman dearly & sacredly: she was a handsome girl - would have made a good loving wife - was natural and quite intellectual, though not highly Educated, I did honestly - & truly love the girl & think often - often of her now." (Wilson/Davis: "Herndon's Informants", p. 383 - Letter from Robert B. Rutledge to William H. Herndon).

This is, I think, exactly how it was, his first love, for most people a special one in lifelong memory, but nevertheless not necessarily the love #1 - A. Lincoln did not say she was the love of his life.

I think the New Salem time was for him what in German we would figuratively call his "Sturm- und Drangzeit", literally "Storm and Drive Period". ("Sturm und Drang" was a proto-Romantic movement in German literature and music, late 1760ies to the early 1780ies, in which individual subjectivity and, in particular, extremes of emotion were given free expression in reaction to the perceived constraints of rationalism imposed by the Enlightenment and associated aesthetic movements.) This period with all it's emotions IMO ended with his marriage, but his marriage persisted till the end of his life.

As for his love to (for?) Mary - allegedly, Abraham Lincoln said to a correspondent of the "Christian Register" at a White House reception: "My wife is as handsome as when she was a young girl and I, a poor nobody, fell in love with her, and what is more, I have never fallen out."...after over twenty years! Of course we don't know how reliable this account is, but the same goes (AFAIK) in the end for all we have on this topic.

However, we can only speculate and believe about this topic, and I think what we (want to) believe about "Lincoln's love life" depends a great deal on our own experiences, dreams, and ideals. So - this is what I believe so far or want to believe. (But I think I argued it quite well.)

PS: One statement by Yoko Ono on John Lennon after his death illustrates my idea of "the love of one's life" quite well: "He was my husband, he was my lover, he was my friend, he was my partner. And - he was an old soldier that fought with me." (I think Abraham and Mary Lincoln did that- they fought together for a long time.)

Please account for the ironic observation made by Joshua Speed in his letter to William Herndon dated November 30, 1866 regarding Lincoln's second decision to marry Mary Todd:

“In the summer of 1841 I became engaged to my wife. He (Lincoln) was here on a visit when I courted her; and, strange to say, something of the same feeling which I regarded as so foolish in him took possession of me and kept me very unhappy from the time of my engagement until I was married. This will explain the deep interest he manifested in his letters on my account.

One thing is plainly discernible; if I had not been married and happy — far more happy than I ever expected to be — he would not have married.” (emphasis added)

I think that Joshua Speed knew from personal and intimate observation more about this Lincoln subject than anyone else living then and anyone living now.

As to the wedding ring Lincoln gave to Mary which was engraved "Love is Eternal," I believe that Lincoln used the ring inscription to manifestly appease Mary for the almost “unforgiveable” insult of leaving her standing at the marriage altar on the first occasion and also to declare for himself his commitment to the marriage, no matter what.

Please read what Professor Michael Burlingame has written about Mary Todd Lincoln and her marriage to Lincoln in his Lincoln Prize winning work Abraham Lincoln, A Life, Volume One – Chapter 6, which has as its title a quote from Abraham Lincoln: “It would just kill me to marry Mary Todd.”

The first paragraph of the chapter contains a quote from Lincoln’s law partner of many years, William Herndon:

“In 1842, Lincoln wed Mary Todd, a woman who was to make his domestic life ‘a burning, scorching hell’ as ‘terrible as death and as gloomy as the grave,’ according to one who knew him very well.”

In the same chapter, there is the following excerpt describing Mary’s character from a man that Lincoln knew quite well in Illinois and whom Lincoln later appointed as an associate justice of the United States Supreme Court, David Davis:

“But even before the tragedy of the assassination, David Davis, alluding to her conduct as First Lady during the Civil War, called her a ‘natural born thief’ for whom ‘stealing was a form of insanity.’ In fact, he thought she was ‘deranged’ as far back as the 1840s.”

But Lincoln stuck by his bargain that "Love is Eternal."

Abraham Lincoln NEVER left Mary Todd at the altar. That story was investigated and thoroughly debunked years ago. There exists no marriage license for any Lincoln-Todd wedding other than the one that took place on the evening of Nov 4, 1842. The original source of the aborted wedding story is Elizabeth Todd Edwards who was ill and in her dotage when she gave the interview to Herndon. But even if there had been a wedding scheduled, why has no marriage license ever been uncovered in the public record? MTL's niece Katherine Helm also emphatically denies that it took place and there are no other witnesses who verify it either.

People who claim Lincoln had the ring inscribed to "appease" Mary sure don't give the guy any credit. This theory implies that he was weak and dishonest, some pliable little donkey who could be led around by a spitfire almost a full decade younger than himself. I don't buy it.

I have always been mystified by Michael Burlingame's seething, deeply personal antipathy toward the wife of a man he obviously admires. He and Herndon would have gotten along famously. The only thing I can come up with is that like many(male) Lincoln admirers he feels that Mary Todd was unworthy of his hero. That may or may not be true, but Abraham Lincoln apparently did not agree. And the more Burlingame et. al. denigrate her, the worse they make AL look in my opinion. Because at the end of the day, HE is the one who chose her and he married her. If he was such a wimp that he could be manipulated into a marriage he didn't want ,then he deserved the unhappiness he got from it.(IF he was unhappy in it, which I don't agree he was).

The person who would be most astonished and offended at the charge that he did not love and cherish the woman he married is Abraham Lincoln himself.

"President Lincoln loved the mother of his children deeply and tenderly....we are indifferent to those we do not love, and he never ever treated her with indifference." (From Elizabeth Keckly, seamstress and close companion to MTL during the White House years)

With all due respect to Herndon, Davis, Speed and the estimable Burlingame...to imply that they knew Lincoln better than MTL is presumptuous enough to almost make me laugh. Herndon spent a few hours a day with AL in their law office. Speed shared a friendship with him that was very intense for a few years, then he married and moved away. David Davis was a close friend of AL, but not did not live in Washington during the WH years and spent months at a time without seeing or writing to him.Michael Burlingame was born a century after the man died and obviously never met him.

None of them were present in the marital bed of this couple, nor privy to the intimacies and life altering experiences that any marriage of 20+ years must include. None of them were present at the births of four children, nor endured the agony of having to bury two of them...together. None of them were in the trenches with this man and woman in the hellish Civil War White House. Mary and AL saw one another at their best and at their worst... during illnesses, depression, grief. The love they had for the four children they conceived together bound them even tighter. Mary was almost certainly bi-polar, and Lincoln seemed chronically depressed and morbid even before he met her. The marriage most assuredly was not a fairy tale, but it was a marriage after all, with two very flawed people involved....not a saintly husband and a harridan wife as these guys would have us believe.

Marriage is for flesh and blood men and women. Not gods and myths.

(05-24-2014 01:08 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  With all due respect to Herndon, Davis, Speed and the estimable Burlingame...to imply that they knew Lincoln better than MTL is presumptuous enough to almost make me laugh. Herndon spent a few hours a day with AL in their law office. Speed shared a friendship with him that was very intense for a few years, then he married and moved away. David Davis was a close friend of AL, but not did not live in Washington during the WH years and spent months at a time without seeing or writing to him.Michael Burlingame was born a century after the man died and obviously never met him.

None of them were present in the marital bed of this couple, nor privy to the intimacies and life altering experiences that any marriage of 20+ years must include. None of them were present at the births of four children, nor endured the agony of having to bury two of them...together. None of them were in the trenches with this man and woman in the hellish Civil War White House. Mary and AL saw one another at their best and at their worst... during illnesses, depression, grief. The love they had for the four children they conceived together bound them even tighter. Mary was almost certainly bi-polar, and Lincoln seemed chronically depressed and morbid even before he met her. The marriage most assuredly was not a fairy tale, but it was a marriage after all, with two very flawed people involved....not a saintly husband and a harridan wife as these guys would have us believe.

Marriage is for flesh and blood men and women. Not gods and myths.

Well worded. As much as I appreciate Prof. Burlingame's works and research as for the many facts and info he provides, regarding this topic I don't agree on his conclusions. There are sure accounts to argue pro and con as well, and all will remain speculation in the end, but I wonder what makes him that obsessed to prove an unhappy marriage by all means.
As for Herndon I once read the theory that a great deal of Herndon's charge that the Lincoln household was a "domestic hell" rooted in Herndon's dislike of their undisciplined children ("brats"). But the fact that others considered the Lincoln children from their own point of view as some sort of torture does also not allow to conclude they were such for Abraham Lincoln - and I'm sure everyone will agree it was right the opposite. So I think one cannot simply draw similar conclusions on Lincoln's feelings for Mary because oneself wouldn't have gotten along with her or coped with her behavior. In dubio pro reo.

LOVE-Should be Eternal-Romance tries to be! Who knows what Lincoln had in his marriage? You can Love someone,but not like them-Herb

(05-24-2014 07:12 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  

(05-24-2014 01:08 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  With all due respect to Herndon, Davis, Speed and the estimable Burlingame...to imply that they knew Lincoln better than MTL is presumptuous enough to almost make me laugh. Herndon spent a few hours a day with AL in their law office. Speed shared a friendship with him that was very intense for a few years, then he married and moved away. David Davis was a close friend of AL, but not did not live in Washington during the WH years and spent months at a time without seeing or writing to him.Michael Burlingame was born a century after the man died and obviously never met him.

None of them were present in the marital bed of this couple, nor privy to the intimacies and life altering experiences that any marriage of 20+ years must include. None of them were present at the births of four children, nor endured the agony of having to bury two of them...together. None of them were in the trenches with this man and woman in the hellish Civil War White House. Mary and AL saw one another at their best and at their worst... during illnesses, depression, grief. The love they had for the four children they conceived together bound them even tighter. Mary was almost certainly bi-polar, and Lincoln seemed chronically depressed and morbid even before he met her. The marriage most assuredly was not a fairy tale, but it was a marriage after all, with two very flawed people involved....not a saintly husband and a harridan wife as these guys would have us believe.

Marriage is for flesh and blood men and women. Not gods and myths.

Well worded. As much as I appreciate Prof. Burlingame's works and research as for the many facts and info he provides, regarding this topic I don't agree on his conclusions. There are sure accounts to argue pro and con as well, and all will remain speculation in the end, but I wonder what makes him that obsessed to prove an unhappy marriage by all means.
As for Herndon I once read the theory that a great deal of Herndon's charge that the Lincoln household was a "domestic hell" rooted in Herndon's dislike of their undisciplined children ("brats"). But the fact that others considered the Lincoln children from their own point of view as some sort of torture does also not allow to conclude they were such for Abraham Lincoln - and I'm sure everyone will agree it was right the opposite. So I think one cannot simply draw similar conclusions on Lincoln's feelings for Mary because oneself wouldn't have gotten along with her or coped with her behavior. In dubio pro reo.

Burlingame is a highly respected scholar but he is the last person I would go to for a balanced view of Mary Lincoln or her relationship with her husband. He seems to do pretty much the same thing he accuses pro-MTL writers of doing. He cherry picks information to support his view that Mary was the Anti-Christ and the marriage was the worst mistake of Lincoln's life. "Obsessed" is quite the right word, and you are not the only person who has wondered what is behind his attitude.

Herndon comes off a little like a jealous, spurned lover when he discusses the marriage and when he attacks his friend's blameless young children he loses all credibility. RTL visited him when he started his Rutledge tour, pleading with him to cease and desist with the attacks on his mother for the sake of compassion if nothing else. Herndon responded with a torrent of abuse against the young man. Herndon's lectures were part of the reason MTL took her youngest child and fled the country to live abroad for years.

Do any of these men...Herndon, Davis, and Speed who allegedly "knew him better than anyone"...believe that AL would have approved this brutal, loutish treatment of his widow and by extension his adored children?

Even if she deserved the opprobrium heaped upon her, how can anyone who has genuinely studied Abraham Lincoln's character and personality believe that he would not have been horrified by how she was treated (by Herndon especially) after she was alone and defenseless?

I cannot add anything to this discussion because I am in complete, 100% agreement with both Toia and Eva -- and I'm sure that there are others (mainly men) on this forum who are reading their posts and just passing them off as more female, romantic drivel. I think that every point these ladies have made is well-thought-out and based on readings and knowledge, not just female emotion.

In the same vein, I have often wondered about the authors who have so consistently stuck to the "Mary was a shrew" story. How happy have their romantic adventures/married life experiences been? Could they be projecting their experiences onto the Lincolns?

One last thought: Mr. Lincoln fathered four children with Mary. If she had made his life so terrible, I would think that he would have wanted absolutely nothing to do with her, nor would he have wanted to bring children into a loveless marriage and household.

Laurie,

Author Gerald Prokopowicz("Did Lincoln Own Slaves"?) makes your exact point...that men who have a negative view of MTL and the Lincoln marriage might in general be projecting their own feelings and experiences. Dale Carnegie is a great example. He bitterly hated his ex-wife and used the "furnace of hell" metaphor or something similar to describe both his marriage and the Lincoln's. Prokopowicz posits that the more happily married people are, the more balanced and charitable they tend to be toward Mary.

How do you reconcile the opinion of Michael Burlingame that AL was tricked/seduced in to the marriage with the fact that AL himself told a journalist in the WH that he had fallen in love with his wife and had remained in love? How to explain the fact that Lincoln would race home through the streets of Springfield to hold and comfort his wife during a thunderstorm because he knew she was afraid with Douglas Wilson's claim that he married her only out of a sense of honor? How to explain the affectionate pet names(Molly, Puss)?

These men seem to feel that because MTL was a dreadful woman who would have made THEM miserable, AL felt the same way.

Stephen Oates, Mark David Epstein, Charles Strozier, Kenneth J. Winkle and the late David Herbert Donald are examples of men who have written about the marriage with what I feel is a balance of fact based honesty and compassion. Those are the authors I recommend for anyone seeking a balanced view of Mary and the marriage, untainted by personal bitterness.

(05-24-2014 02:18 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  These men seem to feel that because MTL was a dreadful woman who would have made THEM miserable, AL felt the same way.

To express this was one main intention of all my posts. (Seems I didn't make it.)

Of course you did, Eva E...I simply endorsed the opinion you already made by repeating it!

(05-24-2014 02:18 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Stephen Oates, Mark David Epstein, Charles Strozier, Kenneth J. Winkle and the late David Herbert Donald are examples of men who have written about the marriage with what I feel is a balance of fact based honesty and compassion. Those are the authors I recommend for anyone seeking a balanced view of Mary and the marriage, untainted by personal bitterness.

Let me add Ruth Painter Randall. Her "Mary Lincoln - Biography of a Marriage" explains many of Herndon's comments. She describes a much more loving marriage. Mrs. Randall is an excellent writer.

Hi Gene, I loved Ruth Painter Randall's book but I didn't mention it for a couple of reasons. First, I wanted to single out only men who I feel have written a balanced and fair description of the marriage, and second Ruth Painter Randall is a little too slanted in the pro-Mary direction.

I specifically wanted to mention men who have not consistently written negatively about MTL but have been fair to her, in contrast to ones like Michael Burlingame.