Hi David,

That's a very intriguing excerpt but I am not sure how it proves that AL discussed Ann Rutledge with Speed. It sounds like Speed is speculating that the doctor's letter might have contained some reference to Rutledge based solely on the fact that the doctor refused to read it aloud?

I had exactly the same reaction when reading it. It also made me chuckle a bit because some (female) friends and I were discussing how men are terrible gossips, and yet they accuse women of being the same. It appears the more I hear about the Lincoln-Rutledge love interest, the more it seems to be speculation that has been spread by men over the years.

(05-21-2014 07:10 PM)L Verge Wrote:  I had exactly the same reaction when reading it. It also made me chuckle a bit because some (female) friends and I were discussing how men are terrible gossips, and yet they accuse women of being the same. It appears the more I hear about the Lincoln-Rutledge love interest, the more it seems to be speculation that has been spread by men over the years.

Yep...not only spread by men... men who really seem to dislike Mary Todd Lincoln. They are the ones who seem to like to keep the Rutledge motor running the most, imo.

I have been wanting to ask this question for a long time and am finally going to do it. From the moment that Lincoln started dating Miss Todd, he knew that her family was a slave holding one. I know they were also fellow Whigs, but it would seem to me that, if he had a lifelong hatred of slavery as is claimed, he would have wanted nothing to do with Mary and her family -- and should have run the other way!

The fact that he did hang on - and come back - would indicate to me that he truly loved her. If not, it would make him a self-serving, political climber in my mind. I would prefer to believe that love overcame slavery obstacles.

(05-21-2014 07:05 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Hi David,

That's a very intriguing excerpt but I am not sure how it proves that AL discussed Ann Rutledge with Speed. It sounds like Speed is speculating that the doctor's letter might have contained some reference to Rutledge based solely on the fact that the doctor refused to read it aloud?

Exactly. It goes like this: Lincoln doesn't reveal to Speed a passage in a letter from Lincoln to a Dr. Drake. Speed speculates that the passage COULD have been about Ann Rutledge. But Speed doesn't find out, because Lincoln never shows him the mysterious passage. What might we conclude? Lincoln doesn't seem to have told Speed about Ann Rutledge. Speed was actually reduced to saying (to Herndon) that he never found out if Ann was or was not mentioned in a letter that he himself had never seen! That, along with "It's all new to me," is the sum total of what Herndon managed to extract from Joshua Speed about Ann Rutledge. Well, there's one other oddball Speed reference to Ann but I won't belabor it. What does it mean? I for one think it means a lot. If Lincoln's mental breakdown in New Salem in late August/early September 1835 expressed the grief of a passionate lover, why didn't he allude to it even once to Speed?

(05-21-2014 07:57 PM)L Verge Wrote:  I have been wanting to ask this question for a long time and am finally going to do it. From the moment that Lincoln started dating Miss Todd, he knew that her family was a slave holding one. I know they were also fellow Whigs, but it would seem to me that, if he had a lifelong hatred of slavery as is claimed, he would have wanted nothing to do with Mary and her family -- and should have run the other way!

The fact that he did hang on - and come back - would indicate to me that he truly loved her. If not, it would make him a self-serving, political climber in my mind. I would prefer to believe that love overcame slavery obstacles.

IMO it's unjust to "condemn" others because of their parents, and Abraham Lincoln's mindset was sure like mine (or v.v.). That Mary came from a slaveholding family doesn't mean she agreed on her parents' (father's) practices. I've never read anything different than that Mary had always opposed slavery (though she was not opposed to the convenience of employed servants). Common political views and interests was one thing that started their relationship, Mary shared and supported Abraham Lincoln's political views.

Something about Lincoln I find very interesting: he was drawn to people more educated and more worldly than he. Some of these friends were women; Joshua Speed was the only male example I know. I mention this because it bears on why Lincoln married Mary Todd: compared to most people Lincoln had known, Mary was a walking, talking encyclopedia. Lincoln learned from her. Speed, by the way, came from a rich, educated, slave-owning Kentucky family: shades of Mary. Lincoln learned from him, too. Imagine: this guy who would turn into one of the greatest geniuses of all time came from the remotest sticks, and to get to his future high places he had to learn A LOT. Lincoln hungered for knowledge like a starving person. In fact, it almost ruined his health. This oddly enough circles back to the Ann Rutledge story. Its driven-mad-with-grief theme isn't the only way to make sense of what happened.

(05-21-2014 09:18 PM)Lewis Gannett Wrote:  

(05-21-2014 07:05 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Hi David,

That's a very intriguing excerpt but I am not sure how it proves that AL discussed Ann Rutledge with Speed. It sounds like Speed is speculating that the doctor's letter might have contained some reference to Rutledge based solely on the fact that the doctor refused to read it aloud?

Exactly. It goes like this: Lincoln doesn't reveal to Speed a passage in a letter from Lincoln to a Dr. Drake. Speed speculates that the passage COULD have been about Ann Rutledge. But Speed doesn't find out, because Lincoln never shows him the mysterious passage. What might we conclude? Lincoln doesn't seem to have told Speed about Ann Rutledge. Speed was actually reduced to saying (to Herndon) that he never found out if Ann was or was not mentioned in a letter that he himself had never seen! That, along with "It's all new to me," is the sum total of what Herndon managed to extract from Joshua Speed about Ann Rutledge. Well, there's one other oddball Speed reference to Ann but I won't belabor it. What does it mean? I for one think it means a lot. If Lincoln's mental breakdown in New Salem in late August/early September 1835 expressed the grief of a passionate lover, why didn't he allude to it even once to Speed?

Excellent, I agree with you. Of course there is also a chance AL discussed Rutledge with his close friend Dr. Anson Henry, who treated AL after his second and most serious emotional collapse after the breakup of his engagement to Mary Todd in January 1841. This time he became so despondent that his friends feared for his life. Dr. Henry told his wife that AL confided things to him that he had never told another living person. Dr. Henry remained close to both the Lincolns until the end of his life. He was one of the very few people outside the family that Mary agreed to see in the wake of the assassination.

So perhaps Dr. Henry knew about the Lincoln/Rutledge romance, but per some agreement with AL never spoke of it. It's all so strange, isn't it?

Poor AL. Just as I was typing this up, that old Rolling Stones hit from the 1960's called "19th Nervous Breakdown" popped into my head!

---

(05-21-2014 09:49 PM)Lewis Gannett Wrote:  Something about Lincoln I find very interesting: he was drawn to people more educated and more worldly than he. Some of these friends were women; Joshua Speed was the only male example I know. I mention this because it bears on why Lincoln married Mary Todd: compared to most people Lincoln had known, Mary was a walking, talking encyclopedia. Lincoln learned from her. Speed, by the way, came from a rich, educated, slave-owning Kentucky family: shades of Mary. Lincoln learned from him, too. Imagine: this guy who would turn into one of the greatest geniuses of all time came from the remotest sticks, and to get to his future high places he had to learn A LOT. Lincoln hungered for knowledge like a starving person. In fact, it almost ruined his health. This oddly enough circles back to the Ann Rutledge story. Its driven-mad-with-grief theme isn't the only way to make sense of what happened.

Lewis,

the same thing has always struck me about AL and I think I mentioned it in another thread. He seemed to never look back after he left that cabin in the wilderness. He liked and respected intelligent, upwardly mobile people....both men and women. He seemed much more comfortable around the Todds than he did his Hanks cousins and his step-siblings. By all accounts he was always comfortable and content in the luxurious Todd homes in Kentucky and particularly loved spending hours in the well appointed library at Buena Vista, their summer place. In fact at his Springfield funeral rites the newspapers noted that there were quite a few of the Todds, but from AL's side of the family there was only his cousin Dennis with whom he was never close.

He sent his oldest son to be educated at Phillips-Exeter and Harvard, then as now the swankiest schools in the nation and a bastion of the upper class elite.

And most striking of all, he never ever took any of his children to Pigeon Hollow to meet his relatives, nor were they invited to Springfield to see them. None of his children ever met anyone from their father's birth family. It is Mary Lincoln who insisted on naming their youngest son "Thomas" after her husband's father.

(05-22-2014 12:11 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Dr. Henry told his wife that AL confided things to him that he had never told another living person. Dr. Henry remained close to both the Lincolns until the end of his life. He was one of the very few people outside the family that Mary agreed to see in the wake of the assassination.

So perhaps Dr. Henry knew about the Lincoln/Rutledge romance, but per some agreement with AL never spoke of it. It's all so strange, isn't it?

Toia, personally, I think anything is possible. Unfortunately Dr. Henry died several months after the assassination. I am sure Herndon would have interviewed/communicated with him. On July 30, 1865, Dr. Henry drowned when the steamer Brother Jonathan, on which he was a passenger, sank off the coast of northern California. Although Herndon began "his work" in May, the vast majority of his information was gathered after Dr. Henry died. Maybe Dr. Henry would not have added much to what we already know, but then again, maybe he would have. I'd love to know what he might have told Herndon. Who knows.

(05-22-2014 12:11 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  He sent his oldest son to be educated at Phillips-Exeter and Harvard

I think it was Roberts own decision and ambition to be educated at Phillips-Exeter and Harvard. Robert stated that when he told he intended to go back to Harvard to study law, his father replied: "If you do, you should learn more than I ever did, but you will never have so good a time." According to Robert "that is the only advice I had from my father as to my career".
Also he didn't push Willie and Tad any bit to efforts and achievement.

Lewis Gannet wrote in an earlier post:

Speed wrote to Herndon about Ann Rutledge, after Lincoln's death: "It is all new to me" (Herndon's Informants, 431).

I was curious about the whole letter and specifically the thoughts Speed had about the veracity of the Ann Rutledge and Abraham Lincoln love story. I do not have the book and even the San Francisco Library does not carry the book. But I was finally able to find it on the internet. The complete paragraph in question and the two paragraphs that follow are as follows:

"I thank you for your last lecture [Herndon’s “Ann Rutledge” lecture]. It is all new to me – But so true to my appreciation of Lincoln’s character that independent of my knowledge of you, I would almost swear to it.

Lincoln wrote a letter (a long one which he read to me [i.e. Speed]) to Dr. Drake of Cincinnati descriptive of his case. Its date would be in Decer 40 or early in January 41. – I think that he must have informed Dr. D of his early love for Miss Rutledge –as there was a part of the letter which he would not read.

It would be worth much to you if you could procure the original -"

(Herndon's Informants, 431)

I know that others might disagree, but I think that Speed's thoughts on the subject are clear and unequivocal: "But so true to my appreciation of Lincoln’s character that independent of my knowledge of you, I would almost swear to it."

And thus Speed was able to conclude in the next paragraph of the letter:

"I think that he must have informed Dr. D of his early love for Miss Rutledge –as there was a part of the letter which he would not read."

This to me was indicative of the depth of feeling that Lincoln had for Ann Rutledge. To one friend (William Greene) he complained that the thought "that the snows and rains fall upon her grave filled him with indescribable grief."

(05-21-2014 09:20 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  

(05-21-2014 07:57 PM)L Verge Wrote:  I have been wanting to ask this question for a long time and am finally going to do it. From the moment that Lincoln started dating Miss Todd, he knew that her family was a slave holding one. I know they were also fellow Whigs, but it would seem to me that, if he had a lifelong hatred of slavery as is claimed, he would have wanted nothing to do with Mary and her family -- and should have run the other way!

The fact that he did hang on - and come back - would indicate to me that he truly loved her. If not, it would make him a self-serving, political climber in my mind. I would prefer to believe that love overcame slavery obstacles.

IMO it's unjust to "condemn" others because of their parents, and Abraham Lincoln's mindset was sure like mine (or v.v.). That Mary came from a slaveholding family doesn't mean she agreed on her parents' (father's) practices. I've never read anything different than that Mary had always opposed slavery (though she was not opposed to the convenience of employed servants). Common political views and interests was one thing that started their relationship, Mary shared and supported Abraham Lincoln's political views.

In a letter to her half-sister, Emilie Todd Helm, Mary wrote:

"Altho' Mr L - is, or was a Fremont man, you must not include him with so many of those, who belong to "that party," an "Abolitionist." In principle he is far from it -- All he desires is, that slavery, shall not be extended, let it remain, where it is . . . .
If some of you Kentuckians, had to deal with the "wild Irish," as we housekeeprs are sometimes caled upon to do, the south would certainly elect Mr. Fillmore. .. "
November 23rd, 1856

It seems that both AL and ML had a change of heart over the years regarding slavery.

(05-22-2014 04:15 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 12:11 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Dr. Henry told his wife that AL confided things to him that he had never told another living person. Dr. Henry remained close to both the Lincolns until the end of his life. He was one of the very few people outside the family that Mary agreed to see in the wake of the assassination.

So perhaps Dr. Henry knew about the Lincoln/Rutledge romance, but per some agreement with AL never spoke of it. It's all so strange, isn't it?

Toia, personally, I think anything is possible. Unfortunately Dr. Henry died several months after the assassination. I am sure Herndon would have interviewed/communicated with him. On July 30, 1865, Dr. Henry drowned when the steamer Brother Jonathan, on which he was a passenger, sank off the coast of northern California. Although Herndon began "his work" in May, the vast majority of his information was gathered after Dr. Henry died. Maybe Dr. Henry would not have added much to what we already know, but then again, maybe he would have. I'd love to know what he might have told Herndon. Who knows.

Hi Roger,

It's very sad about Dr. Henry isn't it? But I am not sure what the extent of his cooperation with Herndon would have been. Dr. Henry loved Mary and was close to her. He was said to have been instrumental in getting her and Lincoln back together. I doubt if he would have said anything to encourage Herndon in his belief that Rutledge was Lincoln's great love. In fact he might have been very angry at Herndon for upsetting Mary when at a time when she was so grief-stricken and fragile.

---

(05-22-2014 05:42 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 12:11 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  He sent his oldest son to be educated at Phillips-Exeter and Harvard

I think it was Roberts own decision and ambition to be educated at Phillips-Exeter and Harvard. Robert stated that when he told he intended to go back to Harvard to study law, his father replied: "If you do, you should learn more than I ever did, but you will never have so good a time." According to Robert "that is the only advice I had from my father as to my career".
Also he didn't push Willie and Tad any bit to efforts and achievement.

Hi Eva E, yes it's true that it was Robert's idea to attend those schools but AL didn't discourage him in the least and in fact seemed very proud of his oldest son. As for Willie, by all accounts he was the brightest of the Lincoln children and was highly intelligent. Everyone who met him remarked on his bright promise and how proud AL and Mary were of him. He composed poetry and essays, and was a whiz at math. He would hardly have needed prodding intellectually(unlike Tad).

Sadly he died almost exactly two months after his 11th birthday so there was no real time for his father to make plans for his future, particularly as Willie's death took place in the midst of the war, which occupied his father night and day.

Hi David-

I understand that you feel Speed is unequivocal on the subject of Rutledge, but again...Speed was speculating based on what he knew of his friend's personality and character. He did not say for 100% sure that Herndon's ideas about the romance were true because quite frankly he didn't know. After their marriages AL and JS were not as close as they had once been. AL didn't even bother to inform his friend about the birth of his and Mary's second boy Eddy until the child was almost a year old. The relationship suffered even more later over the issue of slavery, even though the friendship was never broken.

I personally have never doubted the Rutledge romance. What I do scoff at is the idea that she affected AL for the rest of his life, or that she was necessarily his great love. There is solid evidence to the contrary. Less than a year after Ann's death he was pursuing another woman and considering marriage to her(Mary Owens). In fact there is a letter in existence where he expresses interest in Owens even during the time Rutledge was still alive.

(05-22-2014 08:12 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Hi Eva E, yes it's true that it was Robert's idea to attend those schools but AL didn't discourage him in the least and in fact seemed very proud of his oldest son. As for Willie, by all accounts he was the brightest of the Lincoln children and was highly intelligent. Everyone who met him remarked on his bright promise and how proud AL and Mary were of him. He composed poetry and essays, and was a whiz at math. He would hardly have needed prodding intellectually(unlike Tad).

I agree on all this, but my point was that he did not FORCE his children to success, nor did his affection depend on their success - and that makes a BIG difference. Everybody loves a winner (sings Sally Bowles in "Cabaret"), and most parents are proud of "winner kids". Abraham Lincoln showed as much affection - or even more - for Tad as for the other two more ambitious and successful boys, and defended him instead advising to "let him run".

Though I have to admit he seemed to be the least laissez-faire with Robert. I just recalled on his last day (according to Hay) he advised Robert he "must lay aside your uniform, and return to college. I wish you to read law for three years, and at the end of that time I hope that we will be able to tell whether you will make a lawyer or not."

(I think - especially with regard to Tad - Abraham Lincoln felt like Luke 5:31 "They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick", and I seem to recall he once stated something in line with that.)

Oh no, I agree with you. He did not pressure his children in any way and undoubtedly would not have loved Robert any less if Robert had decided to forgo college. One of the striking things about both Lincolns was how laissez-faire their approach to parenting was. I have even heard them described as bad parents by a couple of people.

One journalist who visited the Lincoln home in Springfield shortly after AL was elected president wrote that Willie and Tad constantly interrupted adult conversation. They also climbed into their father's lap and twisted and pulled his ears and nose.

Lincoln chuckled, caressed them, and never reprimanded them even once.

Another incident had Lincoln picking up toddler Tad during a violent meltdown and holding the child out at arm's length. Tad repeatedly tried to kick his father in the face with his short little legs. Lincoln thought it uproariously funny.

One author has opined that Lincoln had a soft spot for people and things that were weak, broken or damaged in some way. That might explain his extraordinary tenderness and patience with his lisping, learning-challenged "Tadpole" who was still unable to dress himself or read at the age of twelve.