I agree with you to some extent Liz. Jefferson would have been a more effective leader, his place in history held in higher regard, if he hadn't had this shameful mistake in his personal conduct. It effected Lincoln's opinion of him, perhaps was a positive influence on Lincoln to not let himself fall into the same temptation. And perhaps, the strong emphasis on persoanl morality in the books Lincoln read as a young man were beneficial to building his character, and helped him to avoid a similiar mistake.

I have written about this in my blog at AbesBlogCabin.org (shameless plug)- but it won't actually post until late June- Lincoln read Cooper's Leather Stocking Tales. This is according to Isaac N. Arnold in his work The Life of Abraham Lincoln. I speculate that one of Lincoln's heroes was Daniel Boone. The Cooper writings further fascinated Lincoln with Boone. I could be way off the mark on this. It's fun to speculate!

(05-20-2014, 04:11 PM)Liz Rosenthal Wrote:

(05-20-2014, 12:29 PM)L Verge Wrote: "It's possible also that people, including Lincoln, were generally aware of Jefferson's sexual escapades with some of his slaves. Admittedly, such things were rather common amongst the slaveowners, but perhaps this amoral conduct really stuck in one's craw when the person engaging in it publicly represented himself as a great humanitarian and forward-looking thinker."

Taking the slavery issue out of the picture, I wonder what Mr. Lincoln thinks now from the great beyond about the sexual escapades of quite a few Presidents while in the highest office in the land? Talk about immoral and detrimental to the country...

I'd say that the general topic of sexual escapades of married U.S. presidents is kind of irrelevant to what we're discussing. When I mentioned the *amorality* of Jefferson's conduct vis-à-vis his slaves, I was not referring necessarily to the extramarital nature of the conduct, but the conduct of a slaveowner who imposes himself sexually on his slaves, where, by the very nature of their status as slaves, they have no power to say "no," nowhere to go to get away from further advances by the slaveowner, and no one to turn to for protection or assistance. Moreover, in imposing himself sexually on a slave, the slaveowner was almost certainly causing the slave's pregnancy, thus creating a new slave in the process - another human being by whom the slaveowner would profit, and whose status would forever be labeled as mere property, with no rights whatsoever. Even if Jefferson had been a bachelor, this problem would have remained. His personal conduct in taking advantage of his slaves sexually, and the conduct of thousands of other slaveowners in doing the same, was detrimental to the millions of slaves subject to their owners, detrimental to the health and well-being of society in general, and detrimental to the professed belief in the United States of America as a "free country."

The reason that Jefferson's conduct was a particular problem here, and one probable reason why Lincoln had disdain for Jefferson as a person, was that Jefferson was among the greatest proponents of his time of republicanism, and freedom of thought, expression, religion and all the rest, and on top of that, was anti-slavery in his views... while behaving abominably in private. Also, Jefferson's later change of heart about the need to place slavery on a path to extinction may have been somewhat opportunistic on his part and quite disillusioning for an idealist like Lincoln. And, thus, we return to the topic of this thread, which is "What Lincoln Read," and, by extension, whom he admired, and why or why not.

How widespread was the knowledge of Jefferson's liaison with his slave, the half-sister of his deceased wife, in the era before Lincoln became a political figure? Judging by the shock and awe that Fawn Brodie brought on in the 1970s or so with her book, I assumed it was a fairly well-kept secret - if it truly existed. I know that the topic was mentioned during Jefferson's Presidency by a political foe, James Callender, and got some exposure before Lincoln was born. It again was brought up in the mid-1850s by the rabid abolitionists as well as some of the British press. But how much of this was absorbed by Lincoln? What words do we have to show that he spoke out against Jefferson's private life?

I realize that all discussions with you, Liz, have to concern the slavery issues or they are not relevant, but how did Lincoln learn of Jefferson and Sally Hemings in order to be able to sit in judgment?

Interesting question, Laure. I'm not sure if we will ever know the answer.
Now back to our regularly scheduled topic, "What Did Lincoln Read?"

I admire the Lincoln writings of Douglas Wilson. In the following, lengthy discussion of Jefferson, he makes sense of what Betty and I continue to preach: Judge history and its men by the times in which they lived - not by the standards of today. Please try to read it in its entirety.

http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/iss...aractr.htm

P.S., Gene, my question of what did Lincoln read concerning the private liaisons of Jefferson was part of the thread on what did Lincoln read... I want to know what he read that would make him judge Jefferson. And, you are probably right - we'll never know because there wasn't much to read about it during his life.

"I'd say that the general topic of sexual escapades of married U.S. presidents is kind of irrelevant to what we're discussing. When I mentioned the *amorality* of Jefferson's conduct vis-à-vis his slaves, I was not referring necessarily to the extramarital nature of the conduct, but the conduct of a slaveowner who imposes himself sexually on his slaves, where, by the very nature of their status as slaves, they have no power to say "no," nowhere to go to get away from further advances by the slaveowner, and no one to turn to for protection or assistance. Moreover, in imposing himself sexually on a slave . . ."

This is absolutely correct. And it is vitally important never to forget that all slave mistresses enjoyed relations with their male slaves too; I saw the film Mandingo, so I know all about this.

April 6, 1859: Letter to H.L. Pierce

In this letter Lincoln explains his thoughts on Thomas Jefferson and the phrase "all men are created equal."

All honor to Jefferson - to the man who, in the concrete pressure of a struggle for national independence by a single people, had the coolness, forecast, and capacity to introduce into a merely revolutionary document, an abstract truth, applicable to all men and all times, and so embalm it there, that to-day, and in all coming days, it shall be a rebuke and a stumbling-block to the very harbingers of re-appearing tyranny and oppression. Courtesy of NPS

From George Will, current political analyst:

How do you reconcile a man who could write the sentence [all men are created equal], with a man who owned more than 200 slaves and never saw fit in his lifetime to manumit them?
Jefferson was a man of his time and his place. And in 18th-century Virginia, property in human beings was the fabric of society. Still, Lincoln, the man who was to end that institution, said, “All honor to Jefferson,” because Jefferson had taken what was a merely national struggle, the American struggle for independence, and cast it in rhetoric that made it a human struggle. And by doing so, he sowed the seeds of the end of the peculiar institution of slavery.

“I think Jefferson was torn and the nation has been torn and will for the foreseeable future be torn by this legacy.”
Do you think that there is an American fault line along which this question of race lies and that Jefferson himself embodies that tension?
I think Jefferson was torn and the nation has been torn and for the foreseeable future will be torn by this legacy. But what, to me, is more remarkable than the fact that Jefferson kept his slaves, is the fact that he was putting down political markers expressing commitments, affirming values, rooting the nation in commitments that were bound to be resolved one day. He didn't know they'd be resolved in four years of fire and bloodshed. But he knew, it seems to me, he had to know that ideas have consequences, and the consequences of Jefferson's ideas had to be the end of slavery.

Historian Richard Hofstader: "In Lincoln's eyes the Declaration of Independence thus becomes once again what it had been to Jefferson — not merely a formal theory of rights, but an instrument of democracy. It was to Jefferson that Lincoln looked as the source of his political inspiration, Jefferson whom he described as 'the most distinguished politician of our history. "The principles of Jefferson are the definitions and axioms of free society,' he declared in 1859." Hofstadter added: "The Declaration of Independence was not only the primary of Lincoln's creed; it provided his most formidable political ammunition. And yet in the end it was the Declaration that he could not make a consistent part of his living work."

I hope you get my point that Abraham Lincoln was able to judge Mr. Jefferson on his everlasting contributions to America and the world -- not on Jefferson's ability (or lack thereof) to cure the problems of slavery in his day. Even Lincoln had to steer the country through four years of war in order to achieve progress in that field.

Laurie: You completely missed my point. If you go back and look, you'll see that I said that Lincoln was a great admirer of Jefferson's political thought but not an admirer of Jefferson the man. So everything you just quoted simply goes to my original point.

As for bringing up slavery on a Lincoln discussion forum... well, since Lincoln wouldn't have been president if it weren't for slavery, I'd say that slavery is relevant in any and every discussion involving Lincoln.

(05-20-2014, 09:18 PM)L Verge Wrote: April 6, 1859: Letter to H.L. Pierce

In this letter Lincoln explains his thoughts on Thomas Jefferson and the phrase "all men are created equal."

All honor to Jefferson - to the man who, in the concrete pressure of a struggle for national independence by a single people, had the coolness, forecast, and capacity to introduce into a merely revolutionary document, an abstract truth, applicable to all men and all times, and so embalm it there, that to-day, and in all coming days, it shall be a rebuke and a stumbling-block to the very harbingers of re-appearing tyranny and oppression. Courtesy of NPS

From George Will, current political analyst:

How do you reconcile a man who could write the sentence [all men are created equal], with a man who owned more than 200 slaves and never saw fit in his lifetime to manumit them?
Jefferson was a man of his time and his place. And in 18th-century Virginia, property in human beings was the fabric of society. Still, Lincoln, the man who was to end that institution, said, “All honor to Jefferson,” because Jefferson had taken what was a merely national struggle, the American struggle for independence, and cast it in rhetoric that made it a human struggle. And by doing so, he sowed the seeds of the end of the peculiar institution of slavery.

“I think Jefferson was torn and the nation has been torn and will for the foreseeable future be torn by this legacy.”
Do you think that there is an American fault line along which this question of race lies and that Jefferson himself embodies that tension?
I think Jefferson was torn and the nation has been torn and for the foreseeable future will be torn by this legacy. But what, to me, is more remarkable than the fact that Jefferson kept his slaves, is the fact that he was putting down political markers expressing commitments, affirming values, rooting the nation in commitments that were bound to be resolved one day. He didn't know they'd be resolved in four years of fire and bloodshed. But he knew, it seems to me, he had to know that ideas have consequences, and the consequences of Jefferson's ideas had to be the end of slavery.

Historian Richard Hofstader: "In Lincoln's eyes the Declaration of Independence thus becomes once again what it had been to Jefferson — not merely a formal theory of rights, but an instrument of democracy. It was to Jefferson that Lincoln looked as the source of his political inspiration, Jefferson whom he described as 'the most distinguished politician of our history. "The principles of Jefferson are the definitions and axioms of free society,' he declared in 1859." Hofstadter added: "The Declaration of Independence was not only the primary of Lincoln's creed; it provided his most formidable political ammunition. And yet in the end it was the Declaration that he could not make a consistent part of his living work."

I hope you get my point that Abraham Lincoln was able to judge Mr. Jefferson on his everlasting contributions to America and the world -- not on Jefferson's ability (or lack thereof) to cure the problems of slavery in his day. Even Lincoln had to steer the country through four years of war in order to achieve progress in that field.

Laurie wrote:
"I admire the Lincoln writings of Douglas Wilson. In the following, lengthy discussion of Jefferson, he makes sense of what Betty and I continue to preach: Judge history and its men by the times in which they lived - not by the standards of today. Please try to read it in its entirety."

http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/iss...aractr.htm



I like Doug Wilson, but I don't agree with everything he says.

I don't know now whether Jefferson has sexual relations with his slave or not. And I disagree about judging history. If you mean understanding history, I can agree. If you really mean judging history, to go further in this conversation would cause me to take it to a moral and religious level that is not the purpose of this forum.

So getting back to what Lincoln read, I was surprised in reading Louis Warren's book "Lincoln's Youth" how much of what Lincoln read as a young person, even the school books of the time, emphasized patriotic, moral and spiritual values. And if you go back to Rob Wick's post #3, a fair portion of what Lincoln chose to read as an adult was of a similar nature. Several historians have commented that the most influential book he read was the Bible

I was once told that in the days of the frontier schools- the only "text book" many of them had was the Bible. No surprise then that young Lincoln was steeped in it. Pretty much all of his writings reflect it.

Quote:I was once told that in the days of the frontier schools- the only "text book" many of them had was the Bible.

I totally agree. The Bible was primarily one of the most important; if not THE only important "text book" for 19th Century school children. If not used outright, it was the basis of most other literature. As Powell's biographer, I've often wondered what he read and was instructed from. Being a preacher's son, I'm sure it was the Bible and other religious texts. Young Lincoln was no different.

This is an excellent site on Victorian kids and what they read and why:

http://www.merrycoz.org/kids.htm

Betty: that is a really interesting list. The poem The Two Burials is new to me (about the burials of (Lincoln and his mother).

Here is the direct link for the poem

http://www.merrycoz.org/museum/2BURIALS.HTM

(05-21-2014, 07:40 AM)Gene C Wrote: Laurie wrote:
"I admire the Lincoln writings of Douglas Wilson. In the following, lengthy discussion of Jefferson, he makes sense of what Betty and I continue to preach: Judge history and its men by the times in which they lived - not by the standards of today. Please try to read it in its entirety."

http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/iss...aractr.htm



I like Doug Wilson, but I don't agree with everything he says.

I don't know now whether Jefferson has sexual relations with his slave or not. And I disagree about judging history. If you mean understanding history, I can agree. If you really mean judging history, to go further in this conversation would cause me to take it to a moral and religious level that is not the purpose of this forum.

So getting back to what Lincoln read, I was surprised in reading Louis Warren's book "Lincoln's Youth" how much of what Lincoln read as a young person, even the school books of the time, emphasized patriotic, moral and spiritual values. And if you go back to Rob Wick's post #3, a fair portion of what Lincoln chose to read as an adult was of a similar nature. Several historians have commented that the most influential book he read was the Bible

And in typical fashion, we have skirted around my original question:

How widespread was the knowledge of Jefferson's liaison with his slave, the half-sister of his deceased wife, in the era before Lincoln became a political figure? Judging by the shock and awe that Fawn Brodie brought on in the 1970s or so with her book, I assumed it was a fairly well-kept secret - if it truly existed. I know that the topic was mentioned during Jefferson's Presidency by a political foe, James Callender, and got some exposure before Lincoln was born. It again was brought up in the mid-1850s by the rabid abolitionists as well as some of the British press. But how much of this was absorbed by Lincoln? What words do we have to show that he spoke out against Jefferson's private life?

I realize that all discussions with you, Liz, have to concern the slavery issues or they are not relevant, but how did Lincoln learn of Jefferson and Sally Hemings in order to be able to sit in judgment?

I am going to assume that there is no answer to what Lincoln read on Jefferson and that we are the ones sitting in judgment of the third President in an attempt to understand the sixteenth President. I don't buy that as a legitimate answer. And I say that with apologies to Liz and Gene for what I see as their inability to prove otherwise.

It was likely something that had "gotten around." A lot of things that people dared not write about in those days were nevertheless known through word of mouth. But, as I said, that wouldn't have been the only reason that Lincoln was disillusioned about Jefferson the man. Jefferson had also had a change of heart regarding national policy on slavery in his later years.

(05-21-2014, 11:21 AM)L Verge Wrote:

(05-21-2014, 07:40 AM)Gene C Wrote: Laurie wrote:
"I admire the Lincoln writings of Douglas Wilson. In the following, lengthy discussion of Jefferson, he makes sense of what Betty and I continue to preach: Judge history and its men by the times in which they lived - not by the standards of today. Please try to read it in its entirety."

http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/iss...aractr.htm



I like Doug Wilson, but I don't agree with everything he says.

I don't know now whether Jefferson has sexual relations with his slave or not. And I disagree about judging history. If you mean understanding history, I can agree. If you really mean judging history, to go further in this conversation would cause me to take it to a moral and religious level that is not the purpose of this forum.

So getting back to what Lincoln read, I was surprised in reading Louis Warren's book "Lincoln's Youth" how much of what Lincoln read as a young person, even the school books of the time, emphasized patriotic, moral and spiritual values. And if you go back to Rob Wick's post #3, a fair portion of what Lincoln chose to read as an adult was of a similar nature. Several historians have commented that the most influential book he read was the Bible

And in typical fashion, we have skirted around my original question:

How widespread was the knowledge of Jefferson's liaison with his slave, the half-sister of his deceased wife, in the era before Lincoln became a political figure? Judging by the shock and awe that Fawn Brodie brought on in the 1970s or so with her book, I assumed it was a fairly well-kept secret - if it truly existed. I know that the topic was mentioned during Jefferson's Presidency by a political foe, James Callender, and got some exposure before Lincoln was born. It again was brought up in the mid-1850s by the rabid abolitionists as well as some of the British press. But how much of this was absorbed by Lincoln? What words do we have to show that he spoke out against Jefferson's private life?

I realize that all discussions with you, Liz, have to concern the slavery issues or they are not relevant, but how did Lincoln learn of Jefferson and Sally Hemings in order to be able to sit in judgment?

I am going to assume that there is no answer to what Lincoln read on Jefferson and that we are the ones sitting in judgment of the third President in an attempt to understand the sixteenth President. I don't buy that as a legitimate answer. And I say that with apologies to Liz and Gene for what I see as their inability to prove otherwise.