The article is at http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dl...26/-1/NEWS

(07-04-2012 09:29 AM)rjnorton Wrote:  The article is at http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dl...26/-1/NEWS

Facinating story, Roger! But...I've never heard of anyone grabbing anything to wad under Lincoln's head. Leale doesn't mention it, neither do others who were present. I more or less believe that the blood (if it is blood) would more or less have come from Rathbone, whose cut artery/vein was supposedly spurting all over the place... It could also be a stain of some other sort -

Still all in all a wonderfully facinating subject that I had never heard of!

Thanks, Roger!

I have always thought that the blood stains on the flag was from Rathbone.I saw the flag when it came to Rochester for a Historical Society display.What irked me was that small town Historical Society had to pay $2000 for people to see it!When questioned about it, the Pike County Historical Society stands by it as being Lincoln's Blood.

(07-05-2012 01:59 PM)HerbS Wrote:  I have always thought that the blood stains on the flag was from Rathbone.I saw the flag when it came to Rochester for a Historical Society display.What irked me was that small town Historical Society had to pay $2000 for people to see it!When questioned about it, the Pike County Historical Society stands by it as being Lincoln's Blood.

Hi Herb, Who paid 2k.? I use to be a docent at the Pike County Historical Society and sat 25 feet from the flag. I have researched all the flags frm the Presidential box and have more than a few thoughts on the Lincoln Flag.
Roger...thank you!

The East Bloomfield Historical Society President told me that,so I took him for his word.It may or may not be true,but I was astonished!

Well, I know that when the Lincoln Flag travelled to Wash. DC last year it had to be placed in a special box and shipped by special carrier. Then the Pike County Historical Society had to obtain a special insurance premium. All those "specials" cost money and the society is small, located in a very small town supported only by donations. Almost every penny they had went to replace the roof a few years ago. The fact that they let the flag go to another small historical society was really a nice gesture. They once asked the Conneticut Historical Society to borrow their Fords flag and were turned down because of an inadequate security system.

I was contacted by the Pike Historical Society about displaying the flag at Surratt House. I don't remember the exact price that they asked, but it was pretty steep for a short-term display. My main concern was the security issue and also the fact that its size is quite large. It would never have fit into the historic house, we had no room in the exhibit area at the Visitors' Center, and the only room with high enough ceilings was in the James O. Hall Research Center, and that would still require special riggings. I had to turn it down.

I believe they also offered it to the Mudd Society, but I never saw that it was displayed there. The only place I know it went in D.C. was the Lincoln Cottage.

For my first entry on Roger's Blog I thought I would write a few words about the Milford Flag and some of its modern history. For many years I spent my summers on Lake Wallenpaupack not far from Milford and the Pike Co Historical Society. The Director was a good friend of my father's and during one visit to the Lake in the 1970s Dad took me over to Milford to visit the museum and the director. Knowing my interest in Lincoln, the Director showed me the flag and told me its provenance. One thing led to another and knowing I was a research scientist graciously agreed to let me take a few samples of red yarn/thread and a saline sample of the alleged blood stains on the flag. Working at the National Institutes of Health I had an exceptionally well equipped lab. At the time I was doing research on a particular blood disease (ITP) among other projects, and had also developed tests separately to determine the origins of red dyes. I did this as a result of several friends who had what they believed were Civil War flags and wanted some objective evidence to support their flags age (unfortunately, many proved post-war). My dye tests could distinguish the two natural dyes, madder (root) and cochineal (beetle) from the synthetic azo-red dyes. The azo dyes did not come to the US until 1866 (from Germany) and replaced the natural dyes. So here was a test that could distinguish between pre-1866 and post-1866. The flag contained madder as its red dye. This along with the various techniques of manufacture that I studied at the time (yarn twist s or z) stitch style, star construction, seam style, etc. clearly supported the Civil War date of the flag. The stains tested positive for heme, a major component of blood. The test is extremely senstive and rather specific. The stains were blood, but whose blood is impossible to tell without further typing or doing DNA analysis (note: red blood cells do not have DNA). None of the Lincoln people I associated with at the time knew of the flag, and so I gave a talk about to the Lincoln Group of DC sometime in the early 1980s, and wrote a little article on the flag for Group's newsletter, The Lincolnian. A few years later I was contacted by Joe Garrera, currently Exec. Dir. of the Lehigh Valley Hist Soc. and Museum in Allention, who expressed an interest in the flag. Joe went on to do extensive research on the flag and its provenance and published a 100 plus book covering most every detail of the flag. Joe became director of the Pike Co Hist Soc and featured the flag. Joe took it to a new level. The rest is history. The flag has achieved a special place in Lincoln Lore. I can say that my research has identified 6 flags that I believe were in the box including the Milford Flag. The provenance for most is pretty solid. I do not think the Milford Flag was displayed - rather it was left folded in a corner of the box. When Harry Ford set out to collect flags to decorate the box he wound up with six. Needing only five, he left the sixth, the Milford Flag in the corner. That is purely my conjecture. I can say with fair certainty that it was not displayed. Whether it cradled the president's head is another story. Sorry for the long entry but I thought some of you might find it interesting. Congratulations to Roger Norton. He is a first class individual who I have enjoyed knowing for many years. Ed Steers

Welcome to the new discussion board, Ed. You and I have "known" each other since 1996, and I was a big fan of yours even before then. I have all of your Lincoln-related books, even ones like The Quotable Lincoln. It's an honor to have you as a member, and I hope you will post often. Just to prove to you how much I admire your opinions on things I still have a post you made on ALO in 1996 about how you felt Lincoln did not have Marfan's. Welcome aboard, my friend.

First, I am so glad to see you posting on this site, Ed. Your name and knowledge will be a big draw. And thank you for this information on the Pike County flag - especially my science (and history) lesson on identifying early forms of dyes. I can add that to the tidbits that we share with our docents at Surratt House.

(07-08-2012 12:02 PM)Ed Steers Wrote:  For my first entry on Roger's Blog I thought I would write a few words about the Milford Flag and some of its modern history. For many years I spent my summers on Lake Wallenpaupack not far from Milford and the Pike Co Historical Society. The Director was a good friend of my father's and during one visit to the Lake in the 1970s Dad took me over to Milford to visit the museum and the director. Knowing my interest in Lincoln, the Director showed me the flag and told me its provenance. One thing led to another and knowing I was a research scientist graciously agreed to let me take a few samples of red yarn/thread and a saline sample of the alleged blood stains on the flag. Working at the National Institutes of Health I had an exceptionally well equipped lab. At the time I was doing research on a particular blood disease (ITP) among other projects, and had also developed tests separately to determine the origins of red dyes. I did this as a result of several friends who had what they believed were Civil War flags and wanted some objective evidence to support their flags age (unfortunately, many proved post-war). My dye tests could distinguish the two natural dyes, madder (root) and cochineal (beetle) from the synthetic azo-red dyes. The azo dyes did not come to the US until 1866 (from Germany) and replaced the natural dyes. So here was a test that could distinguish between pre-1866 and post-1866. The flag contained madder as its red dye. This along with the various techniques of manufacture that I studied at the time (yarn twist s or z) stitch style, star construction, seam style, etc. clearly supported the Civil War date of the flag. The stains tested positive for heme, a major component of blood. The test is extremely senstive and rather specific. The stains were blood, but whose blood is impossible to tell without further typing or doing DNA analysis (note: red blood cells do not have DNA). None of the Lincoln people I associated with at the time knew of the flag, and so I gave a talk about to the Lincoln Group of DC sometime in the early 1980s, and wrote a little article on the flag for Group's newsletter, The Lincolnian. A few years later I was contacted by Joe Garrera, currently Exec. Dir. of the Lehigh Valley Hist Soc. and Museum in Allention, who expressed an interest in the flag. Joe went on to do extensive research on the flag and its provenance and published a 100 plus book covering most every detail of the flag. Joe became director of the Pike Co Hist Soc and featured the flag. Joe took it to a new level. The rest is history. The flag has achieved a special place in Lincoln Lore. I can say that my research has identified 6 flags that I believe were in the box including the Milford Flag. The provenance for most is pretty solid. I do not think the Milford Flag was displayed - rather it was left folded in a corner of the box. When Harry Ford set out to collect flags to decorate the box he wound up with six. Needing only five, he left the sixth, the Milford Flag in the corner. That is purely my conjecture. I can say with fair certainty that it was not displayed. Whether it cradled the president's head is another story. Sorry for the long entry but I thought some of you might find it interesting. Congratulations to Roger Norton. He is a first class individual who I have enjoyed knowing for many years. Ed Steers

Great post, Ed! So very, very glad to see you online! This is wonderful concerning the flag. I believe that the blood was more than likely Rathbone's as I've never heard tell of anyone bunching a flag under Lincoln's head....

I like your conjecture Ed,and the debate continues about the flag being used as a cradle for the President's head.I saw the flag when it came to a small town's Historical Society near Rochester,NY a few years ago.I thought it was Rathbone's blood because of the massive stains! However,I respect your knowledge and opinion about your conjecture.Thanks for clearing things up!

Mr. Steers is right on with his presumption of where the Lincoln was in the box. There is no evidence that it was hung (displayed) but the Gourlay provenance is solid. It makes sense that if a "cushion" was needed, why not use something already folded and right at hand. I would say Ed is the expert on the flags at Fords.

Yes-I agree wholeheartedly!

Well, I haven't seen this much agreement re any of my comments since I picked the Baltimore Colts to beat the New York Giants in 1958. As to flag serving as a cushion; it is possible it was used briefly in the box, but not when Lincoln was carried across the street. Then again, remember that Laura Keene claims to have cradled Lincoln's head in her lap. In both scenarios it seems the amount of blood is greater than that coming from Lincoln's head wound, hence Rathbone could be the source. I do not suppose we will ever know precisely what happened.