I thought that I read somewhere that the fellow calling out the time in front of the theater was later identified as being somehow connected with Lincoln's coachmen.

Did I dream that? Not impossible.

--Jim

(04-08-2013 07:29 PM)Jim Page Wrote:  I thought that I read somewhere that the fellow calling out the time in front of the theater was later identified as being somehow connected with Lincoln's coachmen.

Did I dream that? Not impossible.

--Jim

Jim:

My recollection is that the testimony relating to the fellow calling the time, which came from Sgt. Joseph Dye, was discredited when it was discovered that it had to do with a musical program that was to be performed that night, not with the assassination. Dye testified at the trial of the conspirators and again at Surratt's trial. He tried to place Surratt in front of Ford's on the fateful night, but apparently the jury didn't buy it.

John

(04-14-2013 07:55 AM)John Fazio Wrote:  ....but apparently the jury didn't buy it.

John

It's hard to get perjured testimony past a sharp local southern jury.
It's hard enough to get the truth past. In the words of their ideological ancestors at the OJ jury, "don't confuse us with the truth, we've already made up our mind"

(04-06-2013 09:14 AM)wsanto Wrote:  

(04-05-2013 10:14 PM)John Fazio Wrote:  [quote='wsanto' pid='15727' dateline='1365191684']
[quote='John Fazio' pid='15718' dateline='1365183801']
[quote='Laurie Verge' pid='15717' dateline='1365183764']
I have to disagree with you on the closeness of the various places - having walked to every one of them in my better days. We need only consider Seward's home on Lafayette Park (behind the White House so close to 16th Street), the Treasury building at 15th and F, Kirkwood House at 12th and Pennsylvania, and Ford's Theatre in mid-block of Tenth Street.

Where does the Willard even figure in except for Herold riding past it while heading to the Navy Yard Bridge? And, I don't understand your reference to Herold riding from Ford's to the Willard.

John

John,

The Willard Hotel is right across 15th Street from the east side of the Treasury Building. The north side of the Treasury Building is basically right across the street from Madison Place (the site of Seward's house).

If one were to walk from Madison place toward the site of the Kirkwood one would walk around the northeast corner of the Treasury down 15th Street and turn left onto Pennsylvania directly in front of the Willard. It would take less the two minutes to be directly in front of the Willard Hotel from Madison Place.

Fletcher saw Herold riding past the Willard from the direction of the Treasury Building between 10:15 and 10:30. That means Herold was riding southeast from 15th Street down Pennsylavania Ave toward the direction of the Kirkwood at 12th and Pennsylvania and in the general direction of the Navy Yard Bridge when he was seen by Fletcher.

What do you think Herold was doing so far north of the Kirkwood and Ford's Theater and the Navy Yard Bridge between 10:15 and 10:30 if he wasn't riding away from Lafayette Park?

Bill

Bill, et al.:

You ask some very good questions here.

I did not say Herold went to the Willard; I said he went to the Kirkwood. As to how I came to that conclusion, my recollection is that there are 22 or so items of evidence in my article indicating that he wasn't with Powell and another 20 or so indicating that he was most likely at Ford's to help Booth in some way, if he needed it, and then went directly to the Kirkwood for an attempt on Johnson. The attempt may or may not have been in concert with Atzerodt, but in any case was thwarted for reasons unknown to us. I believe strongly that despite his statements and confessions to the contrary, Atzerodt did put his head in the lion's mouth (i.e. was at the Kirkwood at killing time) when he did not have to, and would not have, if he truly did not want to make an attempt on Johnson. I have never accepted the notion that he went into the bar at the Kirkwood for the purpose of screwing up his courage with booze. He had just had a drink with Fletcher, at the Union, and would very soon have another at the Pennsylvania. If all he wanted was to drink he could have stayed at the Union or gone directly to the Pennsylvania. It follows, therefore, that he went to the Kirkwood at killing time for a reason other than drinking, and that reason, most likely, reasonably and logically, was to have a go at Johnson, if conditions were favorable, thereby ingratiating himself with his co-conspirators who, he knew, thought of him as a drunken, no-account coward. Whatever obstruction he encountered must have been the same one encountered by Herold. Herold had to have been there. Atzerodt said many times that it was Herold's assignment to take out Johnson. Furthermore, Booth knew Johnson had been untouched (per his statement to Lloyd). He could only have found out from Herold. Herold would not have known with certainty if he had not been at the Kirkwood. The two horsemen riding toward the bridge (after Booth had crossed), per Fletcher, had to have been Herold and Atzerodt. At some point the latter decided there was greater safety in not following the other two and therefore made his way to the farm. Recall that Herold mentioned a follower to Cobb. It could only have been Powell or Atzerodt. The preponderance of the evidence is that Powell was headed to Baltimore, though there is some doubt. The Boston newspaper recently sent to us by Roger suggests otherwise.

I will modify my previous position, based on that article, to this extent only: I will allow the possibility that Herold accompanied Powell part way to Seward's home, but before they actually reached the home, he left and went back to Ford's to help Booth. That would account for the fact that the Tayloe servant saw only one horsemen arrive at the home. It is also consistent with all the other evidence referred to in my article. Recall that Atzerodt does not record an assignment for Herold, as he does for everyone else, other than to kill Johnson.

John

Shortly before his hanging Herold was quoted saying he “consented to see that Powell undertook his work” and then to guide Booth and Powell through Maryland. See “The Assassins Executed,” Boston Daily Advertiser, July 8, 1865.The reporter has garbled Herold’s words for certainly no one needed to “see” or assure Powell did his work. Whatever his assignment this article implies it was with with Powell. His sighting on 14th Street by stableman Fletcher is consistent with Herold coming from Seward’s house.

John, my purpose in providing this quote is not to rebut your article, but merely to note that there was a contemporaneous indication that Herold was with Powell. Atzerodt's refusal to cooperate caused Herold to seek out Booth after the Herndon House meeting. Perhaps Booth directed Herold to follow Powell then.

John,

Please see Post #210 on this thread where you did say that Herold left Ford's and went to WILLARD'S - hence Bill and my responses earlier.

(04-14-2013 08:31 AM)Gene C Wrote:  

(04-14-2013 07:55 AM)John Fazio Wrote:  ....but apparently the jury didn't buy it.

John

It's hard to get perjured testimony past a sharp local southern jury.
It's hard enough to get the truth past. In the words of their ideological ancestors at the OJ jury, "don't confuse us with the truth, we've already made up our mind"

Gene:

I am more inclined to believe that Dye made an honest mistake of fact, rather than that he committed perjury. Why do you suppose his testimony was perjury?

John

---

(04-14-2013 03:06 PM)L Verge Wrote:  John,

Please see Post #210 on this thread where you did say that Herold left Ford's and went to WILLARD'S - hence Bill and my responses earlier.

Laurie:

Thank you for pointing this out to me. Clearly, I erred. I meant to say the Kirkwood.

I have a hard time accepting that Herold's role consisted only of escorting Powell to near the Seward home and that when he was reasonably certain Powell could find his way from the point where he left him, rode for the Navy Yard Bridge to meet Booth for the purpose of guiding him in Maryland. That is contrary to all of Atzerodt's statements wherein he said that Booth assigned Herold to kill Johnson. If Herold did not go to the Kirkwood, who was going to kill Johnson, taking into consideration that Atzerodt had said to Booth that he wouldn't do it, a refusal that was confirmed by Powell? Further, Atzerodt also said in one of his statements that at about 9 pm, Herold left him to go to Booth. What was Herold doing between 9 and 10:15? If he went with Powell part way to Seward's --and that's a big if--that is something that would have taken a very few minutes. What about the rest of the hour and 15 minutes?

John

P.S. In my judgment, too many people accept the conventional wisdom that Booth and Herold, with a roiling city behind them and their lives, therefore, on the line, would leave their crossing the river to pure CHANCE. Think about that, and if you agree with me that they would not leave it to pure chance, the next question is: how did they know they would get across? Mrs. Surratt told Lloyd that "parties" would pick up the shooting irons, etc., that night. Cottingham made it "two men", rather than "parties". That shows that Booth was certain he would be there, at the tavern. "Certain" and "chance" are like oil and water: they don't mix. One might even postulate some undue influence with respect to Cobb. What do you think?

(04-14-2013 11:02 PM)John Fazio Wrote:  I am more inclined to believe that Dye made an honest mistake of fact, rather than that he committed perjury. Why do you suppose his testimony was perjury?

I wasn't meaning Dye in particular - I know you have looked into this in much greater detail than I have, and know more about it than I do - although thats a pretty large honest mistake for Dye to make. It has been a while since I read anything about John Surratt's trial, but regarding perjury, Henri Sainte Marie comes to mind. (but I could be mistaken about the name)

Do you believe there were false witnesses at Surratt's trial?

(04-14-2013 07:55 AM)John Fazio Wrote:  P.S. In my judgment, too many people accept the conventional wisdom that Booth and Herold, with a roiling city behind them and their lives, therefore, on the line, would leave their crossing the river to pure CHANCE. Think about that, and if you agree with me that they would not leave it to pure chance, the next question is: how did they know they would get across? Mrs. Surratt told Lloyd that "parties" would pick up the shooting irons, etc., that night. Cottingham made it "two men", rather than "parties". That shows that Booth was certain he would be there, at the tavern. "Certain" and "chance" are like oil and water: they don't mix. One might even postulate some undue influence with respect to Cobb. What do you think?

Exactly right John. With their lives on the line they would not leave it to chance. They had to have a pass. If only we knew how they got such a pass!

Oh wait, see 'A Threat to the Republic'

John,

Thanks for the great debate.

My point is that Fletcher testified he saw Herold riding past the Willard from the direction of 15th Street (the Treasury Building) at 10:20-10:30PM.

Your thesis has Herold no further north than the corner of Pennsylvania and 12th (At Fords on 10th Street and then to the Kirkwood on 12th) to make his attempt on Johnson.

Knowing, obviously, that Herold was involved in some way, if Fletcher's testimony is to be believed then it is the evidence that Herold was riding away from the area of Laffayette Park (the Treasury) at this time. Other than escorting Powell to Sewards (for whatever reason), what would Herold have been doing so far north of 12th Street at this critical time?

As for Azterodt--I don't believe a word from him. Certainly he would want to point the finger away from himself as the proposed assassin of Johnson. He was hoping not to be hanged. Johnson was his only hope (as unlikely as that was). The logical person for Atzerodt to claim was the would-be assassin would have been Herold. That doesn't make it any more true than false in my opinion.

Concerning Lloyd's testimony--Booth may have told him only Lincoln and Seward were assassinated because that is all he knew to be true at the time (He knew he killed Lincoln and he knew Herold saw Powell go into Seward's and possibly heard the cries of murder before he left). In other words, Booth may not have known for a fact that Johnson was spared but simply didn't get any report one way or the other and, therefor, didn't mention it to Lloyd.

Bill

I don't buy it. These guys (Booth and Herold) got lucky (unlucky for the country). Booth was an immature, political zealot, egotistical, self aggrandizing, inexperienced, wanna be. He reminds me of a kid who watches a spy movie and pretends he's 007.
He doesn't seem to worry about being recognized, he wants people to know he did it. So why worry about crossing the bridge? Paine couldn't even figure out how to get out of town.

There may have been some bright minds behind the original plan, but it's not these guys.

But then again, I could be mistaken.

Quote:Paine couldn't even figure out how to get out of town.

Powell wasn't dumb -- he knew enough to get to Seward's House to "case the place out" - and get back to Mrs. Surratt's boarding house on his own.... if he was confused because the gate to Bennings Bridge were closed - that's one thing. I feel that being thrown from his horse (with an apparent subsequent concussion) could be to blame for some confusion - but he wasn't stupid....

Whether or not he was headed to Baltimore also remains to be seen. Both his coat and horse were found in the northern section of DC, making it seem that was the direction in which he was headed.

I'm just trying to stirr up some conversation here.

I'll give you he probably got thrown from his horse, but he managed to figure out to go to Mrs Surratts at night, with lots of military people around. The place had to be lit up some? What time was it and how many soldiers/detectives were there at the time he got arrested? Why not just keep walking and check back in 30 minites or so? How long was it after he had been thrown and lost his horse?

If he was planning on going to Baltimore, why didn't he head in that direction. He had money. If he was heading that way, what changed his mind? Fear of getting caught? His back up plan, if he had one, didn't work out to well. I'll also grant that he was probably scared out of his mind, had a bad headache, but he had more war-combat-escape experience than Booth, and was probably a resourcefull guy. After all he was selected (or was he the only one who volunteered) for this mission. Somebody higher up must have thought he had a chance. I don't think we can blame it all on falling off a horse and bumping his head badly. Some of these questions we will never know the answers to, but it doesn't add up to me (I watched a bunch of crime shows this weekend)

But then again, I could be wrong. Convince me.

Quote:I'll give you he probably got thrown from his horse, but he managed to figure out to go to Mrs Surratts at night, with lots of military people around. The place had to be lit up some? What time was it and how many soldiers/detectives were there at the time he got arrested? Why not just keep walking and check back in 30 minites or so? How long was it after he had been thrown and lost his horse? There was also a soldier stationed under the front porch but in the darkness, Powell may not have noticed him - nor the carriage parked further up the street.

If he was planning on going to Baltimore, why didn't he head in that direction. He had money. If he was heading that way, what changed his mind? Fear of getting caught? His back up plan, if he had one, didn't work out to well. I'll also grant that he was probably scared out of his mind, had a bad headache, but he had more war-combat-escape experience than Booth, and was probably a resourcefull guy. After all he was selected (or was he the only one who volunteered) for this mission. Somebody higher up must have thought he had a chance. I don't think we can blame it all on falling off a horse and bumping his head badly. Some of these questions we will never know the answers to, but it doesn't add up to me

As far as I know, there was no gas light in that part of DC at the time - so it was pretty dark. There were at least four detectives there: Devoe, Wermerskirch, Roche and Sampson - plus additional soldiers; don't really know how many.

According to Powell himself in conversation with Gillette, his horse threw him sometime shortly after he attempted his escape from Seward's house. This was near Fort Bunker Hill and is also verified by a statement from Colonel John A. Foster who heard a horse swiftly approaching on the night of April 14, followed the sounds of the horse attempting to jump a ditch down an embankment near the fort. Shortly thereafter, Foster claimed that he and two others heard the sounds of the horse galloping away in the opposite direction down on the road and then moaning sounds as if a person were in distress. The soldiers were going to check it out when the moaning/groaning sounds stopped. Powell told Gillette that he was knocked out for a short period of time. His facial injuries seem to verify this.

Powell was afraid to move from his "woodland hideout" because he said that Union calvary was moving backwards and forwards all through the area the next morning. Add to that the fact that he was covered with mud, dirty and had no hat.

In the Victorian era, a gentleman without a hat would be as conspicious as a man with a frockcoat on would be today - it simply wasn't done! He waited until the search parties quieted down and decided that after 3 days he had done enough hiding (on his own words; again to Gillette) and went to Mrs. Surratt's house to obtain clothing (apparently a hat), get a good hot meal and then rest a bit before going on to Baltimore by train. Yes, he DID have the train fare.

Some things we'll never know - and that is the charm of the entire mystery/story....

Thanks Betty.....good answers.
I had forgotton how long he was hidden, and (don't tell anyone- I'm at work - so I couldnt look it up) do you know if his facial injuries could have been caused by overzealous interrogation? Nothing real obvious in the arrest photo's, but I didn't look to hard. Would there be some other kind of "safe house" or place he could go for help other than Mrs. Surratts, if he wanted to?
Were there "cheap hotels", where he might have gone to wash up and get a meal? Maybe a helpfull "lady of the evening"? By this time (2 days after the assassinaiton, was Washington covered with people looking for him, or was more attention placed somewhere else than DC?.

I'll give you a break, I've got to get back to work, and I'm sure you do too. Thanks