Lincoln Discussion Symposium

(07-09-2014 06:44 PM)L Verge Wrote: [ -> ]I consider him a Master Manipulator (which means the same as master politician to me)

(07-09-2014 08:43 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote: [ -> ]Sometimes I think it seems almost supernatural how he came to be in office at the time he was..

This is what fascinated me about him first, and strangely things fascinates me about him that would have upset me about others (love the "Master Manipulator", Laurie). Difficult to explain and more difficult to justify (e.g. some of his actions). Maybe because I think he was "genuine", he himself was not manipulable, and not dazzled by such as status, success, or means, but still kept his feet on the ground (in carpet slippers). And his letters and speeches speak for themselves.

---

Thanks, Gene and Toia, for your comments on Epstein's book! Gene, I definitely read about the inaccuracies on the forum, but after 2012, so there might even be another one! On the other hand, Toia, you sound quite convincing it's a "must-read" on the topic. Is it footnoted? Is it the same Epstein who wrote "Henry & Clara"?

Thomas Mallon wrote Henry & Clara, and I am one of the few on the forum that didn't care for it.

I wouldn't consider Epstein's book a "must read", but it's a good one to read, if you can get past it's shortcomings. It does have "source" notes.
(But I must confess, I'm a fan of Ruth Painter Randall, and I prefer her book)

Oooops, er, yes, thanks Gene, that one was written by Thomas Mallon (my memory is on vacation.) I'm really looking forward to the Randall book (loved "Lincoln's animal friends").

(07-10-2014 05:14 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-09-2014 06:44 PM)L Verge Wrote: [ -> ]I consider him a Master Manipulator (which means the same as master politician to me)

(07-09-2014 08:43 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote: [ -> ]Sometimes I think it seems almost supernatural how he came to be in office at the time he was..

This is what fascinated me about him first, and strangely things fascinates me about him that would have upset me about others (love the "Master Manipulator", Laurie). Difficult to explain and more difficult to justify (e.g. some of his actions). Maybe because I think he was "genuine", he himself was not manipulable, and not dazzled by such as status, success, or means, but still kept his feet on the ground (in carpet slippers). And his letters and speeches speak for themselves.

---

Thanks, Gene and Toia, for your comments on Epstein's book! Gene, I definitely read about the inaccuracies on the forum, but after 2012, so there might even be another one! On the other hand, Toia, you sound quite convincing it's a "must-read" on the topic. Is it footnoted? Is it the same Epstein who wrote "Henry & Clara"?

Just an aside -- Thomas Mallon wrote Henry and Clara. Good book, but Caleb Stephens's Worst Seat in the House is better.

[Toia, you sound quite convincing it's a "must-read" on the topic. Is it footnoted? Is it the same Epstein who wrote "Henry & Clara"?]

Eva,

I enjoyed the Epstein book because it was very sensitive and honest.(And yes, there are extensive footnotes) But again, I have to stress that Epstein is a poet, not an historian, and some of the assumptions/speculations that he makes in the book are a bit much...private conversations and thoughts that he imagines between the couple, and the idea that Tad was conceived during a full moon in late June 1852...but all in all I enjoyed it very much. I didn't find anything glaringly, factually inaccurate. But, just as Gene is a huge fan of the Ruth Painter Randall book, I also consider her bio, along with the MTL compilation of letters(by both Leavitt-Turner and Jason Emerson ) the absolute keys to understanding this tragic, complex woman.

I have Mallon's "Henry and Clara". It was a great read, but left me feeling profoundly melancholy. The final few pages will absolutely shock you.

I have and like "Henry & Clara" too. I still wonder why I got so confused about the name Epstein and why I seem to know him?!

(07-09-2014 02:56 PM)Angela Wrote: [ -> ]I’m sure, Lincoln found Mary agreeable – after all, she presented herself as kind (as you pointed out – as we all do) before marriage but I think he knew exactly that marrying into the Todd family would help secure his place.

(07-09-2014 05:14 AM)Angela Wrote: [ -> ]...she wanted to marry a future president, he needed a wife - done.

I think A. L.'s interest in marrying Mary surmounted his interest in marrying into the Todd family (which neverthless he sure appreciated). Also Mary would sure have sensed if there was no deeper interest from A. L.'s side but seeking to improve his status and chances in life. Would she have engaged in such a marriage?

To clarify: I'm talking about the "order of importance" of reasons, or the other way round: I think neither A. L. nor Mary would have married solely upon practical/rational reasons, and I also think finding the partner nothing but "agreeable" would have been enough for neither of them to enter marriage.

I'd like to learn further opinions. So, what do you think on this? What was A. L.'s "main objective", how important was it for him to marry into the Todd family, or any similar clan, how great was the pressure to marry soon?

My question to the experts on Victorian/19th century family life: in how far were weddings rather acceptable, rational arrangements and agreements rather than predominantly/ solely matters of love compared to nowadays? E.g. in cases when the Miss advanced in age? How influential were parents (especially from "upper" social classes) on their daughters/sons decisions?

IMO, A.L. surely thought that Mary was a good catch. Attractive, intelligent, educated, and from a good family, and maybe $. Evidently they had a lot in common. Poetry, politics, sense of humor, a desire for position in society. Part of their problem causing the early courtship breakup seemed to be A.L. 's concern that he couldn't provide for her in the manner she was used to, and maybe he wasn't good enough for her. He was deffinately marrying up. She on the other hand, never met his family, knew he was lacking in the social graces, was self educated, and poor. Probably not handsome, but had a great personality. (how many of us ran in the other direction when we heard that?) To a certain extent, she broke with her family to marry him, which took a lot of fortitude, considering what we know about her insecurities (especially about money). She saw something special there, that she did not see in other men, and she was right. But it cost her dearly. And she never stopped loving him.

Is that what you had in mind?

Quote:...how far were weddings rather acceptable, rational arrangements and agreements rather than predominantly/ solely matters of love compared to nowadays? E.g. in cases when the Miss advanced in age? How influential were parents (especially from "upper" social classes) on their daughters/sons decisions?

Parents' decisions on marriage mattered a great deal more in the Victorian era than they do now, of course. The gentleman had to present himself, usually before the father and ask for the daughter's hand in marriage. This was usually done in private without the daughter present. Things were taken in consideration as to the potential groom's age, education, social status, employment, etc. So it was pretty important. The girl's father could make or break a marriage if he refused her hand.

Of course, couples still eloped, but then the parents were usually pretty unrelenting. Although it's not set in the Victorian era, but in the Regency/Federal period, remember when Jane Austin's Lydia ran off with Mr. Wickham in Pride and Prejudice. They eloped and married so this sort of thing was going on for a long, long time. The father could be unforgiving in such a situation.

I can't say for certain whether or not Mr. Lincoln would have considered these things other than Mary was pretty, popular and wealthy. I don't know (does anyone?) if Mr. Lincoln asked Mr. Todd for Mary's hand as would have been done. Such a marriage could advance Mr. Lincoln's career - and Mary obviously saw ambition and potential in Mr. Lincoln - notwithstanding the fact that they were physically attracted to each other. Mr. Lincoln in his youth was not too bad looking a man, I think.

Marriage was a "career" and basically the only career for middle class to upper class women in the Victorian era - usually outside of servitude, although there were mill girls, girls working in factories, as clerks in retail stores and actually in service as maids. Definitely NOT something that an upper class lady like Mary Todd would ascribe to.

Are there any records to indicate that Lincoln went to Mr. Todd and asked for Mary's hand in marriage? Any comments on what Todd thought of his son-in-law?

Lincoln didn't meet Mr. Todd before the marriage. He was pleased that the first son was named Robert Todd.
He did like AL, and I understand that AL was the executor? of his estate.

(07-11-2014 11:52 AM)L Verge Wrote: [ -> ]Are there any records to indicate that Lincoln went to Mr. Todd and asked for Mary's hand in marriage? Any comments on what Todd thought of his son-in-law?

No, Lincoln didn't go to Mr. Todd and asked for Mary's hand in marriage, they first met in fall 1843 when Mary’s father came to Springfield to see Mary’s husband and his grandson Robert. During that visit he gave her a $25 gold piece and deeded 80 acres of land to the couple, plus promised a yearly sum of $1,100. AFAIK he didn't give that much to any of his many other (weren't it 13 surviving?) children.

Allegedly A. L. asked for Mary's hand in marriage one day before the wedding. According to Alton Telegraph editor George T. M. Davis "it was at the house of Mr. Francis that Mr. Lincoln and Miss Todd were to be married until the relatives, yielding to the inevitable, insisted on a home wedding."

This is what Eugenia Jones Hunt recalled being told by Mary's sister, Frances Todd Wallace, in the late 'sixties about the Lincolns' wedding (find it such a nice account and worth sharing):
"Mr. Lincoln had known my sister Mary over three years, when he called to see her the night before their marriage. In his conversation with Mary, he referred to his lack of means, his ambitions, and his love for her. 'I now suggest and insist upon our marriage at once. We will live at the Globe Tavern for the present. Now we must go, very quietly without fuss and feathers, at ten o'clock tomorrow morning, before the magistrate, and ask him to marry us.'
The next morning at the breakfast table, Mary told our sister, Lizzie, and Mr. Edwards that she and Mr. Lincoln had decided to be married at ten o'clock that morning, very quietly by the magistrate. Our aristocratic sister, with an outburst, gave Mary a good scolding. 'Do not forget that you are a Todd. But, Mary, if you insist on being married today, we will make merry, and have the wedding here this evening. I will not permit you to be married out of my house. Mr. Lincoln should ask the Reverend Dr. Dresser to officiate at the ceremony.' Mr. Edwards said: 'Mary, I agree with you - Mr. Lincoln is talented and will be an influential man, a leader among men. And now, ask all of your friends to be present at your wedding.'
Be assured, Eugenia, it was a hurly-burly day. How we hustled! I had a whole boiled ham which I took over for the wedding supper, and made the bride's and groom's cake. It was a very pretty and gay wedding. The ladies were in lovely evening gowns. Sister Mary was handsome in her beautiful bridal dress of white satin, with her pearl necklace, earrings, and brooch. Miss Lina Lamb and Julia Jayne were Mary's bridesmaids. After the ceremony, congratulations, and the wedding supper, we danced until midnight in those spacious parlors of the Ninian Edwards home."
(Eugenia Jones Hunt: “My Personal Recollections of Abraham and Mary Todd Lincoln”, The Abraham Lincoln Quarterly, March 1945, p. 236-237.)

---

Thanks for all your comments and info on my questions. Sounds the opinions rather tend to "marriage upon consideration" than "upon mutual feelings"?

(07-11-2014 11:52 AM)L Verge Wrote: [ -> ]Are there any records to indicate that Lincoln went to Mr. Todd and asked for Mary's hand in marriage? Any comments on what Todd thought of his son-in-law?

Hi Laurie-

Robert Smith Todd liked and approved of AL for Mary, in marked contrast to Elizabeth and Ninian Edwards:

"I only hope that Mary will make as good a wife as she has a husband" R.S. Todd/ original source is an interview with MTL's grandniece Mary Edwards Brown, Illinois State Register, Nov 4, 1920

When Mary was 7 mos pregnant with RTL in June 1843, Robert Todd hired AL to sue someone who owed him money. He not only knew his daughter and her new husband could use the $$, he respected Lincoln's skill as a lawyer. A few weeks after the birth of Robert, he visited the couple at the Globe Tavern and deeded 80 acres of land to Abraham and Mary, which provided a comfortable income to them until long after they needed it.(pgs 80-82, The Lincolns: Portrait of a Marriage by Daniel Mark Epstein

So as we can see, life as the husband of Mary Todd may not have always been a day at the beach, but I am sure that AL would have been the first to agree that it had it's rewards!

Is it known when (how many days before the wedding) A. L. bought the wedding ring? He didn't have one, did he? Why not? Was that generally uncommon in those days?

(07-11-2014 12:42 PM)Gene C Wrote: [ -> ]Lincoln didn't meet Mr. Todd before the marriage. He was pleased that the first son was named Robert Todd.
He did like AL, and I understand that AL was the executor? of his estate.

Hi Gene,

After RST's death, Lincoln filed a "bill of reviver" on behalf of himself and Mary, as well as her three sisters Elizabeth, Frances and Ann-Marie, against the claims of Mary's brother George Todd who had challenged his father's will out of greed. He wanted a bigger piece of the pie by cutting out their stepmother Betsy. Cold-blooded guy!(pgs#156-157 The Lincolns: Portrait of a Marriage, Daniel Mark Epstein)

---

(07-11-2014 06:32 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: [ -> ]Is it known when (how many days before the wedding) A. L. bought the wedding ring? He didn't have one, did he? Why not? Was that generally uncommon in those days?

Eva E.,

Their wedding took place in the evening, and I have always read that AL purchased the ring and had it engraved on the morning of the same day.

Also, I have never read that account of the night before the wedding. This is the night that the estimable Prof. Burlingame speculates that Mary spent seducing AL into bed, causing him to panic the next morning to the extent that he felt compelled to marry her that same day.(Abraham Lincoln, A Life, Vol I)

I think your account sounds much more likely and believable...thank you!