Lincoln Discussion Symposium

For the Lincoln land in Iowa and what happened to it, go to Abraham Lincoln Online and go to "Lincoln Land in Iowa."

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(08-11-2014 11:12 AM)LincolnMan Wrote: [ -> ]I would like to visit the grave of Herndon if we can fit it in. Great pictures.

Bill,

We will visit again this year.

Joe

Thanks Joe. I think visiting the Herndon grave really is a must since he was so much a part of Lincoln's life and lore. Anyone other grave stand out that we might want to see?

Here's the list of famous folks currently in residence

http://www.oakridgecemetery.org/tour.html

web site indicates a map and written program is available at the cemetery office for the low, low price of $2

Nice!

(08-12-2014 12:26 PM)LincolnMan Wrote: [ -> ]Nice!

Last year we visited Lincoln, Herndon, Benjamin Thomas, Harry Pratt, and one other Lincoln author at Oak Ridge--was it Randall? Let's see how many others, depending on time factor, using Gene's posting.

I don't remember seeing Herndon's grave. I would like to see Rev. Dresser's grave. I see U.S. Grant has a daughter there too.

Rob Wick sent me this article about William H Herndon and his Lincoln Informants by Doug Wilson

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jala/2629860...ext#note_9

Thanks, Gene and of course thanks to Rob for forwarding the article along.

Doug Wilson repeatedly insists in the article that Herndon did not hate MTL at all. No?

[i]The man accused her of being complicit in the deaths of her own children. (letter to Jesse L. Weik, quoted in excerpt on pg#108 of "Legends That Libel Lincoln" auth. Montgomery Lewis)

Saying something like that about a woman for whom motherhood was one of the foundations of her existence strikes me as beyond vicious. If it wasn't inspired by hatred, then what was it?

Hi Toia. Are these the words you refer to?

"Poor boys, they are dead now and gone! I should like to know one thing and that is: What caused the death of these children? I have an opinion which I shall never state to anyone. I know a good deal of the Lincoln family and too much of Mrs. Lincoln."

Thanks, Roger, I wanted to ask/search for it. I lack a little time right now for propper argumentation, but don't think Herndon basically hated Mary (though they sure didn't love each other either) before the feelings on both sides flew off the rails with the Ann Rutledge affair for which sure Herndon was responsible though. Both Mary and Herndon were extreme personalities, and I think one shouldn't forget Mary, too, was no saint regarding lifelong unforgiving hate for questionable reasons (think of Julia Trumbull) and unladylike assertions like calling Seward a "dirty abolition sneak" (there are sure better examples, these just came to my mind first).

In The Hidden Lincoln there are some comments by Herndon regarding the Lincoln children and Mary and Abraham. Here are a couple of stories told to Weik by Herndon. Why does Mary seem to get 100% of the blame and Abraham 0%?

"Mr. and Mrs. Lincoln never lived a harmonious life, and when she wanted to go to church or to some gathering, she would go at all events and leave Lincoln to take care of the babies. Mrs. Lincoln couldn't keep a hired girl because she was tyrannical to her and Lincoln perforce was compelled to look after the children. Of a Sunday, Lincoln might be seen, if in summer in his shirtsleeves, hauling his babies in a little wagon up and down the pavement north and south on Eighth Street. Sometimes Lincoln would become so abstracted that the young one would fall out and squall, Lincoln moving on the while.

Someone would call Lincoln's attention to what was going on; he would turn back, pick up the child, soothe it, pacify it, etc., and then proceed up and down the pavement as before. So abstracted was he that he did not know what or how he was doing and I suppose cared less. If the little one fell out and Lincoln was told of it, he would say: "This puts me in mind of a story that I heard down in New Salem," and then Lincoln would tell his story and tell it well. The man and Lincoln would sit down on the curbstone of the pavement and finish the forenoon in stories, and when Mr. Lincoln saw Mrs. Lincoln coming from church she screaming because Lincoln had the child out of doors in the fresh air he ran into his room and gently took what followed you know, a hell of scolding. Poor Abe, I can see him now running and crouching.

It happened that sometimes Lincoln would come down to our office of a Sunday with one or two of his little children, hauling them in the same little wagon, and in our office, then and there, write declarations, pleas, and other legal papers. The children spoilt ones to be sure would tear up the office, scatter the books, smash up pens, spill the ink, and p s all over the floor. I have felt many and many a time that I wanted to wring their little necks, and yet out of respect for Lincoln I kept my mouth shut. Lincoln did not note what his children were doing or had done. When Lincoln finished his business, he would haul his children back home and meet the same old scolding or a new and intensified one. He bore all quite philosophically. Jesus, what a home Lincoln's was! What a wife!"

Thanks Roger, yes.

That is the statement I was referring to, and I was so shocked and revolted when I read it that I couldn't quite believe I'd gotten it right.

I wouldn't imply that about my worst enemy. If it wasn't extreme dislike bordering on irrational that inspired it, then what was it?

Mary was without a doubt a difficult, extreme, sometimes disturbed personality. I am not at all sure I could have gotten along with her one day. But the worst thing she ever said about Herndon was that he was a drunk-which was in fact the truth.

She never stooped as low as he did with her.

ETA:I agree Roger, that Mary(unjustly) gets the lion share of the blame for spoilt, badly behaved children.

Also, so what if AL babysat the kids while his wife was in church, or if he was forced to pitch in and help during the rare times he was at home! For the 4-6 months of the year he was away, it mostly all fell to her. Besides, it doesn't sound like he minded much.

Just to clarify, I by no means wanted to defend what Herndon did to Mary in and with his lectures and writings, and I agree on all you said, Roger and Toia. My point was just that though there might have been dislike, I don't think there was hate on both sides in and from the beginning.

(09-27-2014 01:05 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote: [ -> ]But the worst thing she ever said about Herndon was that he was a drunk-which was in fact the truth. She never stooped as low as he did with her.

Yes, not towards him, but she, too, was capable of seriously hurting others, she didn't have a "clean record" in such matters either. Again, this shall not justify what Herndon did.

(09-27-2014 09:42 AM)RJNorton Wrote: [ -> ]Why does Mary seem to get 100% of the blame and Abraham 0%?

Douglas Wilson in "The Mary Lincoln Enigma" wrote: "In spite of his reputation as her sworn enemy who in later years engaged her in 'open warfare', a consistent theme in Herndon's correspondence from 1866 on is that Mary Lincoln had been unfairly condemned as the sole source of difficulty in the Lincoln marriage and that Lincoln, who was not an attentive and helpful husband, deserved a share of the blame....In 1866, he had twice used a phrase that captures the essence of it: 'what I know and shall tell only ennobles both - that is so to say it will show that Mrs. L. has had cause to suffer, and be almost crazed, while Lincoln self sacrified himself rather than to be charged with dishonor.'" (Source for the latter quote: WHH to Charles H. Hart, Dec.1866, Hart Papers)

Thanks Eva.

Mr. Herndon's opinion is that Mary suffered because Lincoln did not love her, and that she knew it because he told her so. He believes that Mary went through her entire 23 year marriage knowing this, and that is what "ennobled" her.

And he thinks AL of course suffered because he did not love his wife, but did the honorable thing of committing perjury and lying at the altar, thus "ennobling" himself.

There is some evidence that AL told Mary he did not love her(once) in order to break their engagement.

But my opinion is that if Herndon believed this passionate, volatile, possessive woman would marry, bear children for and loyally support the career of a man who steadfastly maintained that he had no love for her all during their marriage, he was a completely deluded idiot.

If Herndon had stuck to subjects he had 100% certain knowledge of instead of coming to conclusions about AL's intimate relationships based on his own subjective opinions and experiences(like certain academics and "experts" in our own time) I would not have such contempt for him.

Gladly at least it didn't lead Mary to question or lose confidence in her husband's love, and IMO this firmness is a strong evidence that it's just the way it was (he did love her).