Did Mary Lincoln need committal?

[My Name Is Kate]

Did Mary ever forgive Robert for what he did to her (have her labeled "insane" and involuntarily committed? And did I read somewhere, possibly in this thread, that he stalked and ambushed her in order to bring her to trial and commit her...? Maybe he should have been arrested for kidnapping. It makes ones wonder where and how he acquired such cold-blooded traits.)

[Anita]

Jason, Thank you for your clarification on Mary's Insanity Trial transcript, or rather lack of one.

I'm pretty new and became confused when when I read the Lincoln Library had "a copy of the trial transcript." To me a trial transcript is all the testimony word for word. Turns out they were referring to a collection of trail related documents which I'm sure are in your books. I will definitely put them on my reading list.

[Eva Elisabeth]

(09-03-2013 02:52 PM)My Name Is Kate Wrote:  And did I read somewhere, possibly in this thread, that he stalked and ambushed her in order to bring her to trial and commit her...? Maybe he should have been arrested for kidnapping. It makes ones wonder where and how he acquired such cold-blooded traits.)

My name is Kate, I had posted that, but deleted the post. I thought it was irrelevant since the focus was on the (not existing) trial transcripts. My source was a book I've started reading a few days ago: “The Trials of Mrs.Lincoln”, by Samuel Schreiner (1987), which is based on and quotes newspaper accounts and papers and correspondence marked in Robert’s hand “MTL Insanety File”, found in Hildene in 1975 and since located at the Louis A. Warren Lincoln Library and Museum in Fort Wayne, Indiana (at least till the book was released). I should have read the preface more carefully because it says: "The court was not required to keep a verbatim transcript." Schreiner also writes: "If possible, letters, newspaper accounts and the like are quoted with the original spelling, punctuation and structure intact." (So, make up your own opinion whether you consider the following reliable!)

According to Schreiner, Robert stated in court: "In fact, I have had a man from the Pinkerton agency watching her for the last three weeks, whose sole duty was to watch after her when she went on the street. She knew nothing about it....Although she has been exceeding kind to me, my mother has really been irresponsible for the last ten years. She has been eccentric and unmanageable..."

Regarding Robert's and his allys' further course of action, these were the medical witnesses they had gathered:

- Dr. Ralph N Isham, who had been treating her ever since she had returned from Forida; he advised Robert to contact
- Dr. R. J. Patterson, who had never met Mary before the trial;
- Dr. Wilis Danforth, who had treated Mary in ‘73+’74 and, on Robert’s request, in early ’75;
- Drs. Charles Gilman Smith and Hosmer Allen Johnson, whom Mary herself had hired to try to safe Tad’s life;
- Dr. Nathan Smith Davis, famed for papers on the nervous system and professor of physiology and pathology at Rushmore College; and
- Dr. James Steward Jewell, editor of the “Chicago Journal of Nervous and Mental Diseases”.

Prior to the trial, Leonard Swett got written affirmative answers from all of them to two questions he posed: a) did they think that Mrs. Linoln was insane; and b) did they think she should be confined to a mental institution? Some, e.g. Dr. Jewell, just scribbled “aye” to each question.

Dr. Davis, who had never met Mary, wrote:”From the facts and circumstands detailed to us on the 15th inst., I am decidely of the opinion that Mrs. Lincoln is insane. The character of her insanety is such that she may at times appear perfectly sane in ordinary conversation and yet she is constantly subject to such mental hallucination as to render her entirely unsafe if left to herself.”

[RJNorton]

For anyone curious about Mary's second trial there is information here.

[Eva Elisabeth]

(08-27-2013 11:00 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  I hope you like the book, Eva. The book has a unique image I have never seen in another Lincoln book. There was a short period between when the Lincolns moved out of the Globe Tavern and into the home they purchased from the Rev. Charles Dresser. For several months they lived in a frame cottage on Fourth Street. Dr. Evans' book has a sketch of this dwelling. I have never seen the image anywhere else other than Dr. Evans' book.

Today I received the book and there are some pictures in it I've never seen before! BTW, this was one of Mary's residences in Frankfurt, Hotel d'Angleterre (I haven't yet found one of the other, Hotel de Holland). It's the second building from the right:
   
The "Hotel d'Angleterre" or "Englischer Hof" was built in 1797 by the French archtect Salins de Montfort. Like most surrounding buildings it was partly destroyed in WWII. German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer lunched everyday at the restaurant of the Englischer Hof for more than thirty years. Here is a picture of the restaurant:
   
Here is another inside picture:
   
Since Mary loved shopping, she might frequently have visited Frankfurt's shopping mall #1, the "Zeil". This is a picture, and the very right building is the "Palais Rothschild" (yes, the banker family...):
   

[L Verge]

What great photos - thank you.

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Surratt House has just received a donation of some used books in excellent condition - and most are original hardbacks. At least six or seven are on Mary Lincoln. As soon as we set prices for them, readers here will be the first to know what is available.

[RJNorton]

Thanks, Eva! All I have ever read about the Hotel de Holland is that Mary went there because it wasn't as expensive. I'll try to find a photo.

[L Verge]

MARY LINCOLN BOOKS AVAILABLE AT SURRATT HOUSE: As mentioned above, a collector just donated a number of used books (all in near pristine condition) to the museum with the understanding that we could use them to raise funds. I am pulling rank and will hold these books off display until Friday morning in order to give my friends here first crack. You may call 301-868-1121 with Visa or MasterCard to order, or you may email me at laurie.verge@pgparks.com and ask me to hold your order until check or money order can arrive (up to ten days). There will be an additional $3 postage for the first book and $1 for each additional book in the same order. Checks or money orders made payable to Surratt House Museum and sent to 9118 Brandywine Road, Clinton, MD 20735. ALL BOOKS ARE HARD COVER UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED.

Behind The Scenes by Elizabeth Keckly (1988 paperback edition) - $10
Mrs. Lincoln by Catherine Clinton - $15
The Madness of Mary Lincoln by Jason Emerson - $15
A Warrant for Mrs. Lincoln by Nancy Schleifer (a novel) - $10
Wild Rose: Rose O'Neale Greenhow, Civil War Spy by Ann Blackman - $15
Loving Mr. Lincoln: The Personal Diaries of Mary Todd Lincoln by Kay duPont (paperback fiction) - $5
The Insanity File: The Case of Mary Todd Lincoln by Neely and McMurtry (paperback) - $12
Mary, Wife of Lincoln by Katherine Helm (paperback) - $20
Mrs. Lincoln and Mrs. Keckly by Jennifer Fleischner - $12
Fashionable First Lady: The Victorian Wardrobe of Mary Lincoln by Donna McCreary - $15

I should note that, in nearly every case, these prices are lower than what is being asked on Amazon. And, Amazon doesn't need the money!

[Jason Emerson]

(09-17-2013 01:30 PM)L Verge Wrote:  MARY LINCOLN BOOKS AVAILABLE AT SURRATT HOUSE: As mentioned above, a collector just donated a number of used books (all in near pristine condition) to the museum with the understanding that we could use them to raise funds. I am pulling rank and will hold these books off display until Friday morning in order to give my friends here first crack. You may call 301-868-1121 with Visa or MasterCard to order, or you may email me at laurie.verge@pgparks.com and ask me to hold your order until check or money order can arrive (up to ten days). There will be an additional $3 postage for the first book and $1 for each additional book in the same order. Checks or money orders made payable to Surratt House Museum and sent to 9118 Brandywine Road, Clinton, MD 20735. ALL BOOKS ARE HARD COVER UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED.

Behind The Scenes by Elizabeth Keckly (1988 paperback edition) - $10
Mrs. Lincoln by Catherine Clinton - $15
The Madness of Mary Lincoln by Jason Emerson - $15
A Warrant for Mrs. Lincoln by Nancy Schleifer (a novel) - $10
Wild Rose: Rose O'Neale Greenhow, Civil War Spy by Ann Blackman - $15
Loving Mr. Lincoln: The Personal Diaries of Mary Todd Lincoln by Kay duPont (paperback fiction) - $5
The Insanity File: The Case of Mary Todd Lincoln by Neely and McMurtry (paperback) - $12
Mary, Wife of Lincoln by Katherine Helm (paperback) - $20
Mrs. Lincoln and Mrs. Keckly by Jennifer Fleischner - $12
Fashionable First Lady: The Victorian Wardrobe of Mary Lincoln by Donna McCreary - $15

I should note that, in nearly every case, these prices are lower than what is being asked on Amazon. And, Amazon doesn't need the money!

Laurie, you have two I want...I just sent you an email. Thanks for the post!

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Laurie, you have two I want...I just sent you an email. Thanks for the post!

[Huppert]

I agree with Gene's first paragraph. What Robert did considering it was 1875, was perfectly normal. And, he relied on a lot of people and doctors in making the decision.

However, I dissent from Gene's second paragraph. Tad was too cold and clammy to visit his mother while she was in Bellevue.

[Eva Elisabeth]

(09-28-2013 03:24 PM)Huppert Wrote:  And, he relied on a lot of people and doctors in making the decision.

It was his (active) decision to bring her to trial. Most of the people whom he relied on hadn't seen Mary for a long time or (three of the doctors) had never seen her. They made their decision upon what he told them. Would he have wanted to rely in any other decision?
Well, he might have had his noble Victorian motives, still it's difficult for me to understand. And I'm still not sure in how far money played a role in his decision.

When Robert was ambassador to the UK, most likely he met Queen Victoria? Are there any accounts in this regard?

[irshgrl500]

(09-28-2013 03:24 PM)Huppert Wrote:  I agree with Gene's first paragraph. What Robert did considering it was 1875, was perfectly normal. And, he relied on a lot of people and doctors in making the decision.

However, I dissent from Gene's second paragraph. Tad was too cold and clammy to visit his mother while she was in Bellevue.

Tad had passed away, nearly 4 years before his mother was committed to Bellevue.
Mary was committed to Bellevue, in 1875, and Tad, Mary's youngest son, had died in 1871, at age 18.

[irshgrl500]

(06-19-2013 12:58 AM)My Name Is Kate Wrote:  [quote='LincolnMan' pid='20292' dateline='1371381722']

Did Robert feel that his siblings, especially Tad, were favored over him? I can't imagine him not having some resentment over that, conscious or not.

Absolutely! When Lincoln was elected President, Robert was away at Harvard, and Willie and Tad were 10 and 7, and the move into the White House, had an enormous impact on them, and their father was able to spend time with them, at the end of a day. Both Willie and Tad had incredibly strong bonds, with their father but Robert's was very distant, and viewed by his father, as something like a rival or competitor. Robert's most vivid image of his father, during his childhood, was of his packing his saddlebags to prepare for his travels through Illinois.
I think that Robert longed for the bond with his father, that his brothers had but also, his experience, in childhood, with his father was very different than the experience, Willie and Tad had, with their father. I did not mention Eddie because Eddie died the same year, Willie was born.

[RJNorton]

(09-29-2013 06:58 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  When Robert was ambassador to the UK, most likely he met Queen Victoria? Are there any accounts in this regard?

Eva, I checked Jason Emerson's book, and the answer is yes. When Robert first arrived he went to Windsor Castle and presented his credentials to Queen Victoria and assumed his new post. Jason mentions that the English people as a whole were extremely curious about Robert as (according to one diplomatic historian), "The Lincoln legend had at last reached England." Jason also mentions that Robert and his wife dined with the Queen at Windsor Castle at the time the Lincolns were preparing to leave for America.

Sometime, long ago, I either heard or read that Mary T. Lincoln met Queen Victoria when she was in Europe. There is allegedly a dress in existence which Mary was supposed to have worn when she was presented to Queen Victoria at St. James Court. The dress was later sent to Mary's niece to be used as a wedding dress. However, I cannot find any proof of this story. Maybe someone else will know something about this.

[Eva Elisabeth]

(09-30-2013 03:56 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Sometime, long ago, I either heard or read that Mary T. Lincoln met Queen Victoria when she was in Europe.

This would indeed have been my next question. I wonder if her image and reputation in England was as bad as in America at that time.