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+--- Thread: Did Mary Lincoln need committal? (/thread-992.html)
Did Mary Lincoln need committal? - LincolnMan - 06-15-2013 04:08 PM
Perhaps hindsight is 20/20-as is said. This Forum is blessed with very knowledgeable individuals-especially when it comes to Mrs. Lincoln. Do you think her institutionalization was necessarily-based on what you know of the case? My gut tells me it wasn't necessary but my head isn't in total agreement. What do you all think?
RE: Did Mary Lincoln need committal? - Gene C - 06-15-2013 08:36 PM
Based only on "Giant in the Shadows", I would say it was necesssary, I would guess that it helped her some, and would have helped her a great deal more if not for outside interference, that was largely instigated and encouraged by Mary.
From what I remember, she wasn't so much what we would consider "institutionized" but more of a place to get away from the stress she was under and be waited upon, taken care of. She was not free to come and go as she pleased, but I think Tad was there much of the time, if he wasn't with Robert. Unfortunately, like most mental illness, she probably felt like there's nothing wrong with me, wrong with me, or wrong with me either.
Bill, do you have to deal with some of these situations where you work?
RE: Did Mary Lincoln need committal? - Donna McCreary - 06-15-2013 08:54 PM
Even Robert Lincoln said that if he had to do it over again, he would not have had his mother committed. However, at the time he made the comment, he too was looking at the situation with hindsight.
In today's world, Mary would not have been committed. However, in her world, I do not think there were many options. Robert was being told by the best in their fields that she was insane. The court found her guilty of insanity. At that point, Robert had two options - place her in a state mental facility or in a private setting. He chose the better of the two options.
I think the real question is "Was she truly crazy?" I do not believe she was. I believe she had tough circumstances, some odd behaviors, and was extremely head-strong. She, like many women in the 19th century, was unfairly treated for being female and misunderstood. Mary was also subjected to the backlash of a 19th century media frenzy. As soon as the newspapers revealed the evil actions of Mary's half-brother David, she was labeled 'crazy.' He was - therefore, she must have been. And the 'vympire press' never let up when it came to Mary. Many historians have commented about the number of members in the Todd family who were 'insane.' Some say as many as 14 members of the Todd clan suffered from mental illness. Interesting, not one historian has been able to name those 14 Todds. I want names! Documentation! Don't just throw out information without proof.
Historians will never agree as to whether or not Mary was crazy - not even on this forum. Jason Emerson believes she, indeed was insane. He makes excellent arguments for his case. While I recognize the behaviors, and admit they were odd, I do not think, and will never think, Mary Lincoln was insane. I do think she may have had a bit of a nervous breakdown.
This is but one of the many debates which makes reading about Mary so much fun.
RE: Did Mary Lincoln need committal? - LincolnMan - 06-15-2013 09:43 PM
Gene and Donna: thank you for both of your thoughts on this. Gene, I own the book you referenced but still have not read it yet. There are so many to read. As many of you many know, I am a psychologist. Donna, you are correct to say that Mary would not be institutionalized today. Even if she were placed on a modern psychiatric inpatient unit today- she wouldn't be there long- maybe a week or so. There are still 288 State Hospitals in the USA today- but Mary would not meet criteria for admission. I think she was indeed mentally ill- but I personally believe it is far overstated. While I respect what Robert Todd did, I don't think it was necessary. But I also realize there were several factors that came into play in the decision. I just don't think that strictly from a psychiatric perspective it was necessary. She was placed in the hospital because she was also Mary Lincoln. As Mary Lincoln she had a lot of baggage-as Donna alluded too. Perhaps more than anything, Robert made the choice because he took on the role of the "Lincoln legacy protector"- and Mary wasn't fulfilling the script he felt she should have. It's common nowadays to speak of Mary as having Bipolar Disorder- and maybe she did- but I think the things that people say about her in a negative way were more part and parcel of her personality- and those facets of her character were not likely to change- no amount of treatment or institutionalization would have an impact on it. I think, to put it in modern terms, Mary got a raw deal. I think the incident added to the already prevailing thinking that people had about her- which continues to this day. I don't necessarily think Robert Todd had any motives in his actions other than honorable- but there are those who do. Sorry for the rambling- hope it makes sense.
RE: Did Mary Lincoln need committal? - RJNorton - 06-16-2013 04:14 AM
I know the depth of love I feel for my wife, and I cannot imagine the heartache of holding hands with her and having her shot in the head. I know I would never be the same again. I don't know if it would make me crazy or not, but I know it would have a profound effect on my future behavior and thoughts. I would never recover, and if others termed me "weird" then sobeit. It's hard for me to understand how anyone could totally recover from such an experience. Would I have unreal fears like Mary did? Probably.
I agree with Jason on most things, but I think I part with him here, although I think people define "insanity" in different ways. Like Bill, I think Robert was sincere in wanting to do what he felt was best for his mother, but I think he was misled into being more worried about her than was necessary. I think the whole thing could have been handled in some other way than it was...much more privately rather than a public display. I do think she needed special care at this point in her life, but couldn't something have been done in a more private manner? Could she have gone straight to live with Elizabeth and Ninian without the stop at Bellevue?
I do agree with Donna that the behaviors observed were odd. I can relate to at least one of them. I think it was testified that in her hotel she was half-dressed and entered an elevator thinking it was a washroom. Do I ever enter a room and then realize it's not the room I had intended to enter? Yep. Was there a bathroom in her room? To me, anyway, her behavior was odd, but it doesn't meet my personal feeling of what true insanity is. She seemed to have lots of fears when she was in that hotel, so who knows what was in her mind. Some of her behaviors and fears are indeed difficult to explain, though.
RE: Did Mary Lincoln need committal? - Eva Elisabeth - 06-16-2013 05:54 AM
Donna and Bill,
you say Mary wouldn't meet the criteria for being institutionalized. Do you think Robert was aware of this? I still wonder about his motives after reading Harold Holzer. Bill, you believe his motives were solely honorable and intented to protect Lincoln's legacy, but this action (and he may had known in advance) did probably more damage to Mary's reputation and thus to the legacy than handling the situation in another, private way, as Roger suggested. (Roger, yours is a great statement. I, too, think although we may speculate about other people's characters and motives we are not allowed to judge them since I believe we all might have acted the same way if we had to face the same experiences, and Mary's are for sure hardly imaginable.)
Harold Holzer emphasizes that Robert obviously suffered a lot from that his younger brothers were treated differently and with much more indulgence than he was. Do you think all this - maybe subconsciously -had an influence on his decision, too?
Is it right that later on he made an attempt to reconcile with Mary?
BTW, some of you manage just to quote a passage instead of an entire post. How do you do this?
RE: Did Mary Lincoln need committal? - LincolnMan - 06-16-2013 06:22 AM
Good morning Eva:
Mary would not meet the criteria today for institutionalization. I have many patients whose baseline behaviors are just as severe and often worse than the ones we attribute to Mary- and they are living in the community. I do think Robert had good intentions. Maybe he thought that if his mother was formally placed in treatment- it would explain her behaviors-past and present- in a way to "save face" to the Lincoln legacy. Of course, I do also think he wanted genuinely to have his mother helped. The decision had to be extremely difficult for Robert- all things considered. I'm sure he did listen to the council of others, and, as Roger referenced, may have been duped. Such matters have no easy answers-and maybe Robert never imagined what the after effects would be. I deal with this all the time- families have their loved ones involuntarily psychiatrically hospitalized. Families want their loved ones to be safe and get better. Unfortunately, it often is the reality that the mentally ill loved one remains angry and resentful that their families had them committed. Very complex issues, indeed.
RE: Did Mary Lincoln need committal? - JMadonna - 06-16-2013 07:27 AM
"Insanity" is a legal term not a medical one. Was she a threat to herself or others? Robert thought she was a threat to herself and the court agreed.
Was this the best course of action for her medically? Probably not, but those were the choices at the time.
Luckily she didn't live in the 1950's when she probably would have undergone electro-shock therapy.
RE: Did Mary Lincoln need committal? - RJNorton - 06-16-2013 07:50 AM
I think if you look at what the court heard the verdict was "a given."
RE: Did Mary Lincoln need committal? - Houmes - 06-16-2013 08:33 AM
(06-16-2013 07:27 AM)JMadonna Wrote: "Insanity" is a legal term not a medical one. Was she a threat to herself or others? Robert thought she was a threat to herself and the court agreed.
Was this the best course of action for her medically? Probably not, but those were the choices at the time.
Luckily she didn't live in the 1950's when she probably would have undergone electro-shock therapy.
I agree. Psychiatry was a primitive art (much theory but little science was involved back then in this medical specialty) in Mary Lincoln's time. Consider Lewis Powell. He was evaluated by several doctors to determine his sanity and ability to stand trial--and ironically, the ones acknowledged to be the experts were called "mad doctors."
The 1950's were really the start of modern psychiatry, with drugs beginning to be used which we consider ghastly today. I have a wonderful advertisement from a medical journal of that era claiming John Wilkes Booth wouldn't have assassinated Lincoln if he had been treated with thorazine, which has a laundry list of side effects, including turning you into a zombie.
I knew a psychiatrist practicing then, and he used to recall rows of patients in bed, like an assembly line, waiting for either electroshock therapy (physicians like to use the more innocuous term "electroconvulsive therapy") or insulin shock therapy, where you're placed in an insulin coma. Works for some, not for others. One major problem with either is memory loss, which can make a bad case of depression even worse. Exhibit A: famous author Ernest Hemingway. Some speculate the electroshock therapy he received worsened his problem, and he committed suicide when he felt unable to write.
RE: Did Mary Lincoln need committal? - L Verge - 06-16-2013 10:17 AM
I just have two, rather catty remarks: Men of the 19th century were not expected to be nurturers and had little experience in dealing with mental and health issues with their loved ones. Robert was ill-prepared for caring for his mother.
I still want to know what influence Mary Harlan Lincoln had on Robert's decision...
RE: Did Mary Lincoln need committal? - RJNorton - 06-16-2013 11:20 AM
(06-16-2013 10:17 AM)L Verge Wrote: I still want to know what influence Mary Harlan Lincoln had on Robert's decision...
The two ladies were estranged at that point, so maybe she supported Robert and perhaps helped influence him in the path he chose? Maybe Donna knows.
RE: Did Mary Lincoln need committal? - LincolnMan - 06-16-2013 12:48 PM
(06-16-2013 08:33 AM)Houmes Wrote:(06-16-2013 07:27 AM)JMadonna Wrote: "Insanity" is a legal term not a medical one. Was she a threat to herself or others? Robert thought she was a threat to herself and the court agreed.
Was this the best course of action for her medically? Probably not, but those were the choices at the time.
Luckily she didn't live in the 1950's when she probably would have undergone electro-shock therapy.
I agree. Psychiatry was a primitive art (much theory but little science was involved back then in this medical specialty) in Mary Lincoln's time. Consider Lewis Powell. He was evaluated by several doctors to determine his sanity and ability to stand trial--and ironically, the ones acknowledged to be the experts were called "mad doctors."
The 1950's were really the start of modern psychiatry, with drugs beginning to be used which we consider ghastly today. I have a wonderful advertisement from a medical journal of that era claiming John Wilkes Booth wouldn't have assassinated Lincoln if he had been treated with thorazine, which has a laundry list of side effects, including turning you into a zombie.
I knew a psychiatrist practicing then, and he used to recall rows of patients in bed, like an assembly line, waiting for either electroshock therapy (physicians like to use the more innocuous term "electroconvulsive therapy") or insulin shock therapy, where you're placed in an insulin coma. Works for some, not for others. One major problem with either is memory loss, which can make a bad case of depression even worse. Exhibit A: famous author Ernest Hemingway. Some speculate the electroshock therapy he received worsened his problem, and he committed suicide when he felt unable to write.
ECT is still practiced today. In my own practice I have had many patients that have had it. Typically the memory loss is temporary. I don't know how it was practiced in the old days- but it doesn't sound good.
RE: Did Mary Lincoln need committal? - Donna McCreary - 06-16-2013 04:44 PM
(06-16-2013 07:27 AM)JMadonna Wrote: "Insanity" is a legal term not a medical one. Was she a threat to herself or others? Robert thought she was a threat to herself and the court agreed.
Was this the best course of action for her medically? Probably not, but those were the choices at the time.
Luckily she didn't live in the 1950's when she probably would have undergone electro-shock therapy.
Sadly, this is probably true.
RE: Did Mary Lincoln need committal? - Eva Elisabeth - 06-16-2013 04:54 PM
(06-16-2013 05:54 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: BTW, some of you manage just to quote a passage instead of an entire post. How do you do this?
Thanks Betty!!