Mary's Reputation

[L Verge]

Given her age at the time of the accident, I do believe that it could have damaged her nervous system. I had a friend whose mother slipped on ice and fell on her back when she was in her late forties. From that day on, she suffered from severe anxiety attacks; and the doctors said that it was a result of her fall - it damaged her neurological make-up. She ended up being almost a recluse, just sitting around the house in her night clothes most days.

[Ashley Norman]

(11-19-2012 08:21 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Given her age at the time of the accident, I do believe that it could have damaged her nervous system. I had a friend whose mother slipped on ice and fell on her back when she was in her late forties. From that day on, she suffered from severe anxiety attacks; and the doctors said that it was a result of her fall - it damaged her neurological make-up. She ended up being almost a recluse, just sitting around the house in her night clothes most days.

I can agree with that. it would make sence.

[JMadonna]

(11-19-2012 02:03 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  Hi Roger. My memory is that Robert Lincoln felt that way. I cannot remember where I read it, but I do recall reading somewhere that Robert felt his mother never fully recovered from that nasty accident.

Don't think is was an accident. I think it was an attempt on Lincoln's life that Mary stepped into.

[Donna McCreary]

You are correct - the only thing accidential about the carriage incident is that Mary was in the carriage instead of Abraham. While the accident may have added to her pains and headaches, it is also important to remember that Mary suffered from severe headaches much of her adult life. While in Washington in the spring of 1848, Lincoln wrote to Mary:

"And you are entirely free from headache? That is good - good considering it is the first spring you have been free from it since we were acquainted."

Most believe these to be migraines. However, since Lincoln wrote of Mary suffering each spring, I have often wondered if the headaches were related to allergies and sinus infections.

[RJNorton]

The description I have in my files is as follows:

The cause of the accident was that suddenly the coachman's seat collapsed, he was thrown to the ground, and the frightened horses then bolted. Because of the way that the driver's seat had become detached, there was some speculation that the this actually was an assassination attempt against Abraham Lincoln (who luckily was not in the carriage at the time). Possibly someone had purposely loosened the bolts on the driver's seat. No definitive cause has ever been determined.

I agree it looks suspicious.

[Tom Emery]

In response to an earlier post (I think from Mike B.), I probably should have made myself a little clearer on celebrities receiving a "free pass" for mental illness, in relation to perceptions of Mary Todd.

I was not really referring to historians of the past, but mainly of today's public perceptions. In my view, too many people on the street still have the perception of Mary being "crazy."

I do believe the winds are changing in Mary's favor, and in my lectures, an increasing number of audience members are sympathetic toward her. But, keep in mind that those people often have some knowledge of the Lincolns, and have done some reading to know enough of the entire story of Mary.

There seems to still be too much stigma attached to Mary, and I think that is highly unfortunate. No one, least of all me, is saying she was perfect. But I don't believe she was as "imperfect" as some would like us to believe.

I freely admit my bias against Herndon. There is no question that he offers detail of Lincoln's everyday existence, personal habits, etc. that is hard to find anywhere else. But there's too many credibility issues with Herndon, in my view.

I like this civil discourse that this symposium brings up.

[L Verge]

Slowly, but surely, I am finding time to read The Mary Lincoln Enigma mentioned previously - only 200 pages to go... However, I am enjoying it tremendously and adding a lot of knowledge to the little I previously knew about Mrs. Abraham Lincoln. I also appreciate the fact that the authors that I have read so far (it is a compilation of essays) are offering much more well-rounded opinions on the lady than I had expected. They address the so-called "bad" incidents, but also inject new "good" incidents and eyewitness accounts.

[Mike B.]

(11-21-2012 10:54 AM)Tom Emery Wrote:  In response to an earlier post (I think from Mike B.), I probably should have made myself a little clearer on celebrities receiving a "free pass" for mental illness, in relation to perceptions of Mary Todd.

I was not really referring to historians of the past, but mainly of today's public perceptions. In my view, too many people on the street still have the perception of Mary being "crazy."

I do believe the winds are changing in Mary's favor, and in my lectures, an increasing number of audience members are sympathetic toward her. But, keep in mind that those people often have some knowledge of the Lincolns, and have done some reading to know enough of the entire story of Mary.

There seems to still be too much stigma attached to Mary, and I think that is highly unfortunate. No one, least of all me, is saying she was perfect. But I don't believe she was as "imperfect" as some would like us to believe.

I freely admit my bias against Herndon. There is no question that he offers detail of Lincoln's everyday existence, personal habits, etc. that is hard to find anywhere else. But there's too many credibility issues with Herndon, in my view.

I like this civil discourse that this symposium brings up.

Dear Tom,

Could you spell out more in detail the "credibility" issues with Herndon? I am not sure what you mean per se.

FWIW, (shamefully disgusting self-plugging here)
In "The Mary Lincoln Enigma" there is an essay about Mary and Herndon by one of the greatest Lincoln scholars IMO that ever lived Douglas Wilson. It is a revisionist look at the two's relationship, and very convincing to me at least, that the normal Herndon is biased against Mary narrative needs to be corrected.

Since you are a student of the Lincoln family, I would love to hear what you think.

[Mike B.]

(11-23-2012 11:51 PM)Mike B. Wrote:  

(11-21-2012 10:54 AM)Tom Emery Wrote:  In response to an earlier post (I think from Mike B.), I probably should have made myself a little clearer on celebrities receiving a "free pass" for mental illness, in relation to perceptions of Mary Todd.

I was not really referring to historians of the past, but mainly of today's public perceptions. In my view, too many people on the street still have the perception of Mary being "crazy."

I do believe the winds are changing in Mary's favor, and in my lectures, an increasing number of audience members are sympathetic toward her. But, keep in mind that those people often have some knowledge of the Lincolns, and have done some reading to know enough of the entire story of Mary.

There seems to still be too much stigma attached to Mary, and I think that is highly unfortunate. No one, least of all me, is saying she was perfect. But I don't believe she was as "imperfect" as some would like us to believe.

I freely admit my bias against Herndon. There is no question that he offers detail of Lincoln's everyday existence, personal habits, etc. that is hard to find anywhere else. But there's too many credibility issues with Herndon, in my view.

I like this civil discourse that this symposium brings up.

Dear Tom,

Could you spell out more in detail the "credibility" issues with Herndon? I am not sure what you mean per se.

FWIW, (shamefully disgusting self-plugging here)
In "The Mary Lincoln Enigma" there is an essay about Mary and Herndon by one of the greatest Lincoln scholars IMO that ever lived Douglas Wilson. It is a revisionist look at the two's relationship, and very convincing to me at least, that the normal Herndon is biased against Mary narrative needs to be corrected.

Since you are a student of the Lincoln family, I would love to hear what you think.

Also, Tom while I share your disdain of the "crazy" pejorative label, I believe she may (through no fault of her own) have indeed suffered from mental illness. And I think that legitimately can be part of the broad biographical approach to her.

[Gene C]

From Benjamin Thomas "Abraham Lincoln" (chpt. Profle of a President)

Willie's death was the hardest blow that Lincoln ever suffered....To Mrs Lincoln, however, it came as a stunning shock. The defiant courage with which she had faced the gibes of society and the cruel spotlight of a hostile press wilted at the loss of a second child....All except the most necesssary White House social funtions stopped.

At last Mary Lincoln sought to lose herself in serving others. She made almost daily visits to the hospitals and convalescent camps to dispense motherly sympathy and little gifts of fruit and flowers...But her errands of mercy had to be discontinued in the summer of 1863, when she was thrown from her carriage in a runaway and struck her head on a stone. Lincoln wired Robert: "Don't be uneasy. Your mother only slightly hurt in her fall". But she suffered severely from shock."

[Mark MacKenzie]

The depth of knowledge on this forum is truly astounding!
I have a question about the secretaries. I have heard of the biography of Lincoln but ashamed to say I have never seen or even know which secretary wrote it. Didn't they refer to her as Her Satanic Majesty? Did they publish that? Are the secretaries' writings well respected?

The David Donald Lincoln I just read stated that he felt Mary was jealous of Hearndon and the secretaries and of Lincoln's attention in general.

Elizabeth Keckley was very fond of Mary wasn't she? She was a seamstress for R.E. Lee's wife and Varina Davis as well wasn't she? I wish she had written more.

If the trauma of experiencing Lincoln's assassination had any part in Rathbone's insanity, imagine how completely Mary must have been effected.

Mary was also reported to have hit her head in a carriage ride just before becoming unhinged at Mrs. Ord when Lincoln reviewed the troops, I read somewhere. I wonder why that tidbit survived history.

Poor Mary. I feel totally sympathetic toward her. What a tragic life.

[J. Beckert]

Lincoln's secretary John Hay referred to Mary as the "Hellcat", but I believe that was in his diary. Her Satanic Majesty is a nasty handle to get stuck with.

[L Verge]

Elizabeth Keckly and Mary Lincoln shared several common bonds. Mrs. Keckly lost her son in the early days of the Civil War. Because of his light complexion, he was able to pass for white and join the Union Army. Sharing the tragedy of losing children had to bring the two mothers close together.

Mrs. Keckly had worked for the Southern elite in Washington prior to their departure from the capital and came highly recommended to the First Lady. Because of her skills as a "modiste," (designer and seamstress as well as adviser in that field), she shared a love of beautiful fabrics and fashions with Mary.

As the contraband of war starting flowing into Washington, Elizabeth Keckly was at the forefront of gathering supplies, finding shelter and food, etc. to help them. Few people recognize that Mary Lincoln aided in that effort and donated money towards the cause. In fact, I have often wondered why so many authors ignore the charitable efforts of Mrs. Lincoln throughout the war. Have they done that deliberately to push their agenda of forwarding the notion that she was pure "Hellcat?"

I think there should be a book written comparing Abigail Adams, Mary Lincoln, Eleanor Roosevelt, Edith Wilson, and Hillary Clinton. Heck, let's throw in Margaret Thatcher along with it!

[LincolnMan]

I would include Mrs. Polk-wife of President Polk.

[HerbS]

Mark-Get-"Henry Villard's Memoirs of Mary's Charlatans". Very interesting History about what Mary went through to try to get rid of her deamons.