Questions About John Brown

[Eva Elisabeth]

Ok, Kate, I worded it poorly - I try better: the way that you think may have been the right idea about how to free the slaves except for not advocating murder except in self-defense.

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Re.: "I 'expected free sympathetic people to aid" the slaves? I did no such thing." - I was referring to this:

(02-07-2016 04:55 PM)My Name Is Kate Wrote:  I said that the only chance of slavery ending without a civil war, was if the slaves themselves, with the help of sympathetic free people, attempt to make a bid for their own freedom. Of course they could not do it all on their own.

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As for the rest - I was trying to understand the reasoning in your previous post which seemed to me that a) a/the situation resulting from an imperfect handling/acting in the past the presence is unchangeable, and b) I didn't understand why not to apply today the ideas you approved of that might have been the better way - or, in other words, it would make more sense to me to make up ideas as for how to better today's situation instead of only criticizing the imperfections of the past. It makes no sense without drawing consequences IMO.

[My Name Is Kate]

This forum is about Lincoln and the Civil War era. That is why I try to leave out the problems in the present (though I could probably say a great deal about that). I am not trying to pinpoint the blame on any one person in the past for the problems in the present, even though the present problems are likely a result of things that transpired throughout the past. My reason for being on this forum is to try to understand how race relations in this country have deteriorated to the level they are now at. I never claimed to have the answers to much of anything. As you may have noticed, my contribution to this forum (if I have made any contribution) is mostly in asking questions, not in providing answers.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Kate, I am sorry if I misunderstood, I didn't mean to criticize, I was just trying to understand your posts, reasoning and chain of logic.

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PS: As for leaving out related present problems - a friend's father was an archeologist, and when asked by people why digging out those old bones was of any importance he used to reply that his job was not to just dig out history and old bones but to find out why empires and societies collapsed, went into war etc. to learn from this for today and help not to repeat the mistakes of the past.

[My Name Is Kate]

It is my understanding that Roger, the moderator of this forum, as well as other members of this forum, do not want present political, social, and particularly race relations problems discussed on this forum, because, as we can see by how this thread has taken an unexpected and (at least for me) headache-inducing and stress-inducing turn, some on this forum just can't seem to discuss those topics in a mature and rational manner. I keep trying to explain my posts, and they keep getting twisted around and thrown back at me in some unrecognizable and incomprehensible form. I do not know how I could possibly make my posts any clearer than I have, yet they are completely misunderstood by some, and deliberately so, it seems to me. And I have asked some questions that I would like answers to (please re-read my posts to find out what they are, as I have neither the heart nor the energy any more to restate them), but they are disregarded, ignored, left unanswered, and maybe even left unread.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Kate, I can just speak for me:
Re.: "...this thread has taken an unexpected and (at least for me) headache-inducing and stress-inducing turn, some on this forum just can't seem to discuss those topics in a mature and rational manner."

I did not perceive this likewise (while I did before in other discussions), and I am honestly sorry you did. And I just can say I felt I discussed in a mature and rational manner, and I assure you that was my intention even if it didn't come over that way.

Re.: "...my posts...keep getting twisted around and thrown back at me in some unrecognizable and incomprehensible form...they are completely misunderstood by some, and deliberately so, it seems to me."

I have tried to understand your reasoning and chain of logic and where I found it questionable have tried to clarify or challenge the logic to verify. This is a normal part of a discussion, and even in mediation, re-wording a statement to check understanding is a normal modus operandi. It is also normal part of a discussion to ask subsequent follow-up questions. And questions may contain a point of view or statement or premises another discussion participant doesn't agree on, or not with further explanation. I think it a normal proceeding in a discussion to express disagreement or challenge this premises/statement/view, and maturity means also to be able to deal with disagreement and other views in a discussion without regarding such as personal hostility. I think such has been done on this thread in a polite manner and am sorry if you don't feel so.

Re.: I have asked some questions that I would like answers to, but they are disregarded, ignored, left unanswered, and maybe even left unread."

I have always tried my best to answer your question when I could. I think others, too. I have never disregarded, ignored or left them unread. Some questions just have no answers, and as for some no one here here is able to answer appropriately. This happens to me, too, that I ask something and no one replies or can reply, and I think almost everyone has made this experience. Your questions are often just difficult and complex ones to answer, for me at least.

Re.: "It is my understanding that Roger, the moderator of this forum, as well as other members of this forum, do not want present political, social, and particularly race relations problems discussed on this forum."

I have not ever seen Roger stating he doesn't want this in general. However, please allow me kindly to remark that it was you in the last passage of your post #42 who linked history to present problems.

[Gene C]

My Name is Kate, you make some valid points. Yours and Eva's life experiences and perspective are somewhat different than mine so I appreciate your sharing them with us. I agree with some of the things you say, and had I walked in your shoes and had your life experiences, I might agree more with what you have said. I think it's good that you look beyond the facts of history and look for the "why".

Like you, many of us are troubled when we see some of the bad parts of our history repeat themselves, or about to repeat. IMO, Lincoln was a man of faith who understood this, and was also troubled by it.

[My Name Is Kate]

Debate is one thing, arguing is something else. I do not enjoy arguing.

If you will go back and read all the recent posts by everyone, you should be able to easily see how what I posted follows from what other people have posted. Kate Larson posted: " I can assure you that those 4 million people were better off after the Civil War - they had the right to marry, vote, go to school, keep their children, go to church, earn their own money and keep it." Sounds like everything is pretty much hunky-dory, doesn't it? But it is not, not at all. So here is what I posted and why I felt it necessary to bring up present race problems: "From everything I've observed about black people living in this country today, (and as I've said in another thread, I lived for twenty years in poor, unsafe, unfriendly neighborhoods), many if not most of them, do not think they have anything close to the freedom and opportunity they "should" have. They are not happy. Why not, if the Civil War was so beneficial to them? BTW, I live up north, not in the south."

You (Eva) also asked how freeing the slaves John Brown's way instead of with a civil war fought largely by white people, might have helped present-day problems: If black people had played a larger role in freeing themselves, they might today have more self-respect and more confidence in themselves. Then again, maybe not. Who knows.

Then you (Eva) posted the following: "why don't you expect them to free themselves now from their unhappy situation? You expected free sympathetic people to aid them - are you one of those to aid them now?" That last part sounded rather accusatory to me, which is why I brought up some of my own personal experiences regarding race relations. I was to trying to answer your question. I was trying to make people understand that I do not see myself as being "above" black people and in a position to aid them in any meaningful way. I see myself, in some ways at least, as being pretty much in the same boat as they are, yet they seem to expect so much from me, personally. I will tell you what it seems to me that they expect from me: They want me to give them my whiteness and they want to give me their blackness. Now how can I possibly do that? Please tell me.

[Eva Elisabeth]

I am sorry you felt my question to be accusatory, it honestley wasn't intended to be. My point was just that we cannot change history or mistakes made back then but perhaps learn from these. So I was asking whether the way you thought perhaps more prosperous in the unchangeable past, could, in some modified way, be tried to apply now. Another point was that people tend to expect others ("sympathetic people") to aid and take action to change an unfortunate condition and blame them for failing to do while not adding their share themselves. It's always the easiest way to leave it to the others. So I was just curious if/what you were willing to do. It was a serious, curious question, not a rhetorical/accusatory one. I just asked about some to me weak/questionable parts in your points, and tried to illustrate, not mean to accuse. You say you don't enjoy arguing - but then it's a discussion forum.

Kate, please be fair. You say "I was to trying to answer your question" - you haven't done until now, (and not before I posted my question...). And I really appreciate and thank you for the answer and insight you provided to me in your last passage now. This helped me to better understand your position which I hadn't been able to before.

[My Name Is Kate]

Yes, it is a discussion forum, not an arguing forum. I did think I answered your question but you tell me that I did not. You turned this personal by asking me pointblank what I am willing to do to help with race relations in this country. The implication of your question is that I am being part of the problem, not the solution. My intention on this forum is to try to understand the problem better. I don't see how I can do much to help solve a problem when I don't even understand how the problem developed, and when the people with grievances seem to expect something from other people that they cannot possibly give. So please be fair. Try living in a poor neighborhood where people hate you because of the color of your skin, then maybe you will understand better where I am coming from. You and I have corresponded by PM and emails. You know (or should know) better than most people on this forum, something of my life story. Yet you expect me to have the energy to do something about a monumental problem (race relations).

[Eva Elisabeth]

Re.: "I did think I answered your question but you tell me that I did not" - just to clarify - "until now" referred to your post #52, the previous one to the "until now", and in the following I even thanked you explicitly for your answer.

I did not mean to be personal, as I said I wanted to illustrate. I asked whether you were yourself willing to do what in your posts you thought others should have done back then, which I find a legitimate question. I also asked for the responsibility of the (nowadays) unhappy ones. I have more than this time read on the forum something of the essence (my perception) that Lincoln should better have done this or that, and then everything would be better now, or the blacks more self-confident, whatsoever. But Lincoln at least tried to do and did something. It maybe wasn't the silver bullet, but he paid for his efforts with his health and life, and I wonder how many of those with "better ideas" by hindsight would be willing to do. This was my mere intention to express.

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PS: I am really sorry for the personal experiences you made, and as I've said more than once I didn't mean to personally offend you. I, too, just want to understand things better.

[My Name Is Kate]

OK, let's just drop this whole discussion. I have no wish to fight with you. I like you. I know life has not been easy for you either. I doubt that it's easy for most people. I just wanted to completely leave me out of this discussion, but I felt forced to mention personal things. I don't hate Lincoln, not at all. I think he was a good person. I don't understand some of the things he did. I am not really interested in him personally, like so many seem to be on this forum. That's OK for them, but I'm just not interested.

Edit: Apology accepted, and I likewise apology for any misunderstanding/offence on my part.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Thanks, Kate. Please accept my apologies and sincere statement that I didn't intend to offend/accuse you. My thoughts and trying to reason have never referred to your person, only to some statements you posted.I might have worded my questions/illustrations poorly and reasoned wrongly. I try to understand (that's why I ask), sometimes it's not so easy from afar. And I highly appreciate to learn from your personal experience.

[Eva Elisabeth]

(02-08-2016 11:21 AM)My Name Is Kate Wrote:  Edit: Apology accepted, and I likewise apology for any misunderstanding/offence on my part.

Thanks, Kate - this means a lot to me.

[Thomas Thorne]

John Brown is IMHO the most difficult person to deal with in our history as he combined the noblest of goals-the end of slavery-with violent means that were incompatible with the existence of republican government if his deeds were emulated by others in pursuit of their own ends.

We pay insufficient attention to Brown's Pottawatomie Massacre of 5/24/1856 in which Brown and his associates hacked to death 5 pro slavery Kansas settlers, an act which was denounced by leaders of the Kansas free state faction as totally without justification and did nothing to free anyone.

Tom

[L Verge]

(02-09-2016 12:18 AM)Thomas Thorne Wrote:  John Brown is IMHO the most difficult person to deal with in our history as he combined the noblest of goals-the end of slavery-with violent means that were incompatible with the existence of republican government if his deeds were emulated by others in pursuit of their own ends.

We pay insufficient attention to Brown's Pottawatomie Massacre of 5/24/1856 in which Brown and his associates hacked to death 5 pro slavery Kansas settlers, an act which was denounced by leaders of the Kansas free state faction as totally without justification and did nothing to free anyone.

Tom

Thank you, Tom, for having the nerve to say what I've been thinking ever since this thread got started. How noble can one's cause be when it requires such violent means to achieve it? (Sometimes I ask that same question about the whole circumstances of the Civil War. Not to belittle the slavery issue, but to consider what else could be done.)