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Natty · (This post was last modified: 01-29-2013 01:52 PM by Natty.)

(01-29-2013 01:47 PM)BettyO Wrote: While we're on the subject of dances -

It is probable that Booth, Powell, Herold and Atzerodt attended the Canterbury Music Hall. It sounds like a risque place, according to testimony given by one Lt.. Vanderpoel at the John Surratt Trial in 1867. He claimed to see the foursome seated at a table in the dance hall, drinking and talking earnestly while on stage a woman "flashed her legs around...."

However, according to Art Loux, the place must not have been that rowdy at times, as Lincoln took his son Tad there on occasion.

Haha. Were the women employed at such establishments still considered "respectable", or did they rank somewhere near the prostitutes?
What kind of dances were held during the Civil War anyway? I've heard that Baptists didn't dance, but this completely contradicts some of the more "Gone With the Wind" impressions I must have concerning grand balls in giant plantations. Big Grin

Gene C · 01-29-2013, 01:53 PM

If we don't take the opportunity to talk about politics and religion, we'll loose that right. Discusion of politics and religion serve as a threat to a self serving governemt. These rights are some of the reasons our current country and government was formed.

BettyO · (This post was last modified: 01-29-2013 01:59 PM by BettyO.)

Quote:Were the women employed at such establishments still considered "respectable", or did they rank somewhere near the prostitutes?
What kind of dances were held during the Civil War anyway? I've heard that Baptists didn't dance, but this completely contradicts some of the more "Gone With the Wind" impressions I must have concerning grand balls in giant plantations.

Women who went on stage were usually associated with the "nether regions" of the social scale, unfortunately - usually seen as little better than prostitutes. One reason supposedly, that Edwin Booth did NOT want his wife Mary Devlin to continue on stage after he married her.

Dances varied during the war period, with waltzes and polkas popular. Line dances such as schottishes were popular as was the Virginia Reel, based on the Roger de'Coverly dance from early Britain.

What you see in Gone with the Wind is pure "Moonlight and Magnolia" fictional myth for the most part....

Natty · 01-29-2013, 02:02 PM

(01-29-2013 01:58 PM)BettyO Wrote: Women who went on stage were usually associated with the "nether regions" of the social scale, unfortunately - usually seen as little better than prostitutes. One reason supposedly, that Edwin Booth did NOT want his wife Mary Devlin to continue on stage after he married her.

Dances varied during the war period, with waltzes and polkas popular. Line dances such as schottishes were popular as was the Virginia Reel, based on the Roger de'Coverly dance from early Britain.

What you see in Gone with the Wind is pure "Moonlight and Magnolia" fictional myth for the most part....

Was it common for men to marry ex-dancers or was this more of an exception?
As for the grand balls, I figured that they might be nothing more than a myth. Were these dances you listed popular in the South? And what was the scoop on those Baptists? Would Lewis Powell have learned a single dance step in his life?

BettyO · (This post was last modified: 01-29-2013 02:08 PM by BettyO.)

Quote:Was it common for men to marry ex-dancers or was this more of an exception?

As for the grand balls, I figured that they might be nothing more than a myth. Were these dances you listed popular in the South? And what was the scoop on those Baptists? Would Lewis Powell have learned a single dance step in his life?

Would men marry ex-dancers? Usually actors would have no qualms. Unfortunately this was a stigma that took years to overcome. There were many nice, chaste ladies who went onto the stage simply because of the glamor and pay. Some men would as well.... I don't see why not. But the usual answer because of the questionable activity of these ladies was no.

There may have been early in the war, in the South, grand balls, and yes, they would have walzed, polkaed, etc. Same with the grand balls in the North.

To a Baptist, dancing was a moral sin. Dr. Gillette wrote a sermon on the subject, I think, in the 1870s. He was dead set against it. Would Powell have danced? That I don't know, but I'd have to say as per his upbringing, which would have been very strict, no. He may have after he joined the army and fell away somewhat from his piety, but there is no way of knowing.

Natty · 01-29-2013, 02:12 PM

(01-29-2013 02:07 PM)BettyO Wrote:
Quote:Was it common for men to marry ex-dancers or was this more of an exception?

As for the grand balls, I figured that they might be nothing more than a myth. Were these dances you listed popular in the South? And what was the scoop on those Baptists? Would Lewis Powell have learned a single dance step in his life?

Would men marry ex-dancers? Usually actors would have no qualms. Unfortunately this was a stigma that took years to overcome. There were many nice, chaste ladies who went onto the stage simply because of the glamor and pay. Some men would as well.... I don't see why not. But the usual answer because of the questionable activity of these ladies was no.

There may have been early in the war grand balls, and yes, they would have walzed, polkaed, etc. Same with the grand balls in the North.

To a Baptist, dancing was a moral sin. Dr. Gillette wrote a sermon on the subject, I think, in the 1870s. He was dead set against it. Would Powell have danced? That I don't know, but I'd have to say as per his upbringing, which would have been very strict, no. He may have after he joined the army and fell away somewhat from his piety, but there is no way of knowing.

How was the general distribution of the various religious groups in the South during that period? Were Baptists more of a minority? I was always under the impression that they were quite a significant, dominant group. If not, which group would have been more inclined to host balls and promote dancing?

Another thing that has always interested me.... what kind of instruments (besides the obvious piano!) would have been popular in the South?

MaddieM · (This post was last modified: 01-29-2013 06:11 PM by MaddieM.)

(01-29-2013 12:09 PM)My Name Is Kate Wrote:
(01-29-2013 06:31 AM)BettyO Wrote: What has the afterlife to do with history?
That was exactly my point. Some of the comments in this thread are for God to decide, not historians or anyone else (such as if Powell's remorse was genuine). And I do not think that he was a cold-blooded killer, BUT if he was, then it is for God to decide what to ultimately do with him and if that label should stick with him for all eternity.

And by that yardstick, he would never have been executed? Doesn't God forgive?

(01-29-2013 01:51 PM)Natty Wrote:
(01-29-2013 01:47 PM)BettyO Wrote: While we're on the subject of dances -

It is probable that Booth, Powell, Herold and Atzerodt attended the Canterbury Music Hall. It sounds like a risque place, according to testimony given by one Lt.. Vanderpoel at the John Surratt Trial in 1867. He claimed to see the foursome seated at a table in the dance hall, drinking and talking earnestly while on stage a woman "flashed her legs around...."

However, according to Art Loux, the place must not have been that rowdy at times, as Lincoln took his son Tad there on occasion.

Haha. Were the women employed at such establishments still considered "respectable", or did they rank somewhere near the prostitutes?
What kind of dances were held during the Civil War anyway? I've heard that Baptists didn't dance, but this completely contradicts some of the more "Gone With the Wind" impressions I must have concerning grand balls in giant plantations.

Didn't the sight of a well turned ankle drive the men wild in those times? Tongue

Gene C · 01-30-2013, 08:32 AM

(01-29-2013 06:07 PM)MaddieM Wrote: Didn't the sight of a well turned ankle drive the men wild in those times?

It still does.

My Name Is Kate · 02-03-2013, 12:41 AM

(01-22-2013 04:40 PM)Linda Anderson Wrote: I was introduced to the Enneagram a while back. It is based on an ancient way of describing people's personalities. There are nine basic personalities in the Enneagram.

I think Powell is a Type Six, which is a Loyalist/Devil's advocate. Those people work well "in a clearly defined chain of command." They are doubtful of their own capacity to take action so they may "project of great deal of their power to leaders." This has come about in part because as children "they remember being afraid of those who have power over them." "Sixes try to ease this insecurity by either seeking a strong protector or by going against authority in the Devil's Advocate stand." Enneagram: Understanding Yourself and the Others in Your Life by Helen Palmer

I don't know anything about the Enneagram, but I read somewhere that Powell's whole family had "terrible tempers." I'm assuming that also included his father. So maybe he had some fear of his father as an authority figure and a religious figure (preacher), and that could also help explain why he drifted away from his religious upbringing.

BettyO · 02-03-2013, 07:45 AM

What time of day did JWB and Herold more or less depart from Dr. Mudd's?

I always assumed that it may have been mid-day -- I know that they were served breakfast by Mrs. Mudd, as it was stated that Booth turned his face to the wall when she entered and I believe, refused to eat. Herold breakfasted with the Mudd family that morning and Mudd later rode into Bryantown where he caught sight of Union soldiers - or was this a couple of days later?

L Verge · 02-03-2013, 02:09 PM

According to extensive studies done by Mr. Hall, Ed Steers, and others, Herold and Booth departed the Mudd House in the late afternoon of April 15, no doubt counting on the cover of night to continue their flight. This may account for them becoming a little disoriented a ways down the road and seeking help from Oswell Swann.

Herold and Mudd had set out earlier for Dr. Mudd's father's house (about a mile away) to see if they could borrow a conveyance. The answer was no - that it would be needed for Easter Sunday services. They then headed towards Bryantown, where Mudd was supposedly doing some shopping for the missus. Learning that there were troops in the village, Herold turned back. Mudd went on, did his shopping, took a leisurely ride back, stopping to talk to several other men, and then came home and pointed to the door.

BettyO · 02-04-2013, 07:25 AM

(02-03-2013 12:41 AM)My Name Is Kate Wrote:
(01-22-2013 04:40 PM)Linda Anderson Wrote: I was introduced to the Enneagram a while back. It is based on an ancient way of describing people's personalities. There are nine basic personalities in the Enneagram.

I think Powell is a Type Six, which is a Loyalist/Devil's advocate. Those people work well "in a clearly defined chain of command." They are doubtful of their own capacity to take action so they may "project of great deal of their power to leaders." This has come about in part because as children "they remember being afraid of those who have power over them." "Sixes try to ease this insecurity by either seeking a strong protector or by going against authority in the Devil's Advocate stand." Enneagram: Understanding Yourself and the Others in Your Life by Helen Palmer
I don't know anything about the Enneagram, but I read somewhere that Powell's whole family had "terrible tempers." I'm assuming that also included his father. So maybe he had some fear of his father as an authority figure and a religious figure (preacher), and that could also help explain why he drifted away from his religious upbringing.

It was said that they were "all hot headed." That is all that is known.

Bill Richter · 02-04-2013, 08:00 AM

Just a guess. . . . Musical instruments in the Old South included harmonica, Jew's Harp, fiddle (violin), jug, spoons. I do not think the guitar or trumpet (mariachi style) came in until Hispanic influence increased as the New Southwest was settled, beginning with Texas around San Antonio and westward, but especially with Southern California, Colorado (big Hispanic areas between Denver and Santa Fe west to Alamosa around the headwaters of the Rio Grande, see James Mitchner's Centennial, e.g., for a good story) and New Mexico, mostly after the Civil War.

02-04-2013, 10:36 AM

What about the banjo??
That was around back then, an pretty popular

Laurie Verge · (This post was last modified: 02-04-2013 11:09 AM by Laurie Verge.)

(02-04-2013 10:36 AM)Hess1865 Wrote: What about the banjo??
That was around back then, an pretty popular

There was also the zither and the hammered dulcimer, both of which were probably more common in the hilly regions of the South.

Kate,

Getting back to your question about the Powells' temper. I note that you must have read that information in Betty's excellent book on Powell because no other author has ever taken the time to really investigate Lewis and his family -- at least if they have, they have never included in-depth material in their books. I was privileged to know Betty when she was writing that book and even went to Florida with her on speaking engagements and was fortunate to be introduced to Powell descendants and to see their keepsakes.

That said, if I remember correctly, Rev. Powell was dismissed by one congregation because he was too strict with them. I don't believe that his hot temper had anything to do with it. I think Betty also mentioned a childhood friend who said Lewis could be hot tempered, but also warm and friendly. We can all certainly relate to that! And, I suspect someone with a hot temper that could match his would suit Mr. Booth very well.