John Surratt's real parents?
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03-07-2015, 10:00 AM
(This post was last modified: 03-07-2015 10:02 AM by HerbS.)
Post: #91
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RE: John Surratt's real parents?
I also think that - Johnson, Stanton and others were somehow involved in the conspiracy to assassinate Lincoln!
Stanton had to CYA! |
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03-07-2015, 10:40 AM
(This post was last modified: 03-07-2015 10:41 AM by Eva Elisabeth.)
Post: #92
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RE: John Surratt's real parents?
(03-07-2015 09:10 AM)RJNorton Wrote: Eva, I am posting the entire article:THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, Roger (- you didn't type all that to copy, did you???)!!! I'm a bit in a hurry and just skimmed the text, but "Father I wish to say something," "Well what is it my child ?" "That I am innocent" is too vague to convince me (I will explain later). Rick - "We were a nation at war" is a good point in general (but doesn't apply to the above question whether she was guilty before God, the sixth commandment doesn't read "thou shall not kill unless your country is at war"). However, if the country is at war with itself does it mean that the laws and punishment for presidental assassination didn't/don't apply anymore? In other words, were/are you allowed to murder your president in a CW? (Do you know what I mean? Right now I lack the time for better wording.) |
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03-07-2015, 11:09 AM
(This post was last modified: 03-07-2015 11:12 AM by L Verge.)
Post: #93
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RE: John Surratt's real parents?
In a vain attempt to verify something that I read regarding Fr. Bernadine Wiget's thoughts, I stumbled across the following quote attributed to Abraham Lincoln. No date, no source, no nothing. Does anyone recall ever having seen it? I will admit that it was part of an anti-Jesuit diatribe.
President Abraham Lincoln said: “This [Ed.: American Civil] war would never have been possible without the sinister influence of the JESUITS. We owe it to POPERY that we now see our land reddened with the blood of her noblest sons. Though there were great differences of opinion between the South and the North on the question of slavery, neither Jeff Davis [Ed.: President of the Confederate States of America] nor anyone of the leading men of the Confederacy would have dared to attack the North, had they not relied on the promises of the JESUITS, that under the mask of Democracy, the money and arms of the Roman Catholic, even the arms of France, were at their disposal if they would attack us.” Maryland was the Land of the Jesuits at the time that the war broke out, and the church owned quite a few prosperous plantations that were worked under slave labor. Dr. Mudd was a Jesuit, and I believe that Fr. Wiget once headed St. Ignatius Parish in Charles County - one of the plantation-holding parishes. I have always sort of dismissed the power of the Catholic Church in Rome at that time because of the political warfare that was threatening the Vatican and Pius IX. Should I reconsider? (03-07-2015 10:40 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:(03-07-2015 09:10 AM)RJNorton Wrote: Eva, I am posting the entire article:THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, Roger (- you didn't type all that to copy, did you???)!!! Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Mary's comment, "I am innocent" had more words to it. I have heard it used in conjunction with, "I did not know what they intended to do." |
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03-07-2015, 11:40 AM
Post: #94
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RE: John Surratt's real parents?
The Jesuits were well educated,and a different breed of cat.Didn't they set out as explorers and hoped they could grab some people and land in thier quest for control of others?
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03-07-2015, 01:21 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-07-2015 01:25 PM by Thomas Thorne.)
Post: #95
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RE: John Surratt's real parents?
Re the quote cited by Laurie about the Catholic Church in the Civil War.
At first I thought the writer was Charles Chiniquy,ex priest and Lincoln law client who wrote about the president expressing fears of assassination by "crafty Jesuits." As the entire quote Chiniquy put into Lincoln's mouth,truth notwithstanding,was 19th century prolixitive prose at its worst,so unlike Lincoln lean and spare use of English,I don't think Laurie's writer was Chiniquy as this unknown person wrote in a style that was closer to Lincoln's. The "arms of France" is a good one. I am aware of Confederate expectation and Union dread of intervention By Britain and France . I am unaware of any Confederate belief in intervention by the Vatican. As the Pope was up to his ears with dealing with the House of Savoy over Italian unification, AL did not lose any sleep over what the Pope might do. And who precisely were the wealthy Catholics-and how many wealthy Catholics were there -who would lavish their money on the Confederacy because of their religious beliefs? Tom |
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03-07-2015, 01:57 PM
Post: #96
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RE: John Surratt's real parents?
The Chiniquy quote which Laurie mentioned is in the Fehrenbachers' book. The Fehrenbachers provide a sampling of Chiniquy quotes, all of which they give an "F" for authenticity (lowest grade possible on their scale).
Eva, yes, I did copy and paste the article - took less than a minute. |
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03-07-2015, 02:18 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-07-2015 02:37 PM by LincolnToddFan.)
Post: #97
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RE: John Surratt's real parents?
[Would abduction have been acceptable from the religious (Catholic) point of view in your opinion?]// quote
Eva, the short answer is NO. Depriving a person of their liberty via abduction is an assault/violation upon them. That is absolutely not only a sin, it's a crime. Thanks MUCH Roger, for posting all that information. There are other various statements I've read in the many, many years I've been reading Lincoln assassination books. Laurie, thank you for the information about Kate Larsen. Can I tell you all something? Two or three days ago before I came here and read the comments of Eva, Thomas Thorne, Roger, Herb and now the info from Ms. Larsen I was 100% convinced that Mrs. Surratt didn't know about the murder conspiracy. Now you all have planted the seed of doubt in my mind. After some thought, of course it is plausible for deeply religious people to commit the sin of blasphemy at the portal of death. Just consider the religiously devout Muslims of Sept 11, 2001. I have read the unbearable transcripts of the cockpit voice recorders on those doomed flights. They were literally singing praises to Allah as they killed their victims and ultimately themselves. I just don't know. ETA: Rick, I am one of the ones who struggle to see the actions of JWB as an act of war. The war was OVER, and he knew it.("Our Cause being lost..something drastic must be done") quoted from his diary. The murder of Abraham Lincoln by Booth was, in my mind, nothing more or less than an act of revenge. "The South is AVENGED!" was one the things some members of the audience at Ford's heard Booth say as he ran off the stage after the shooting. Booth felt that AL was a usurper, unworthy of the office of the Presidency. He was personally offended by his "low, coarse humor" as I read him describe it somewhere. By killing the man, he acted as judge, jury and executioner to eliminate a person that he felt a very personal antipathy toward. |
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03-07-2015, 02:23 PM
Post: #98
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RE: John Surratt's real parents?
(03-07-2015 01:57 PM)RJNorton Wrote: The Chiniquy quote which Laurie mentioned is in the Fehrenbachers' book. The Fehrenbachers provide a sampling of Chiniquy quotes, all of which they give an "F" for authenticity (lowest grade possible on their scale). Thanks Roger. I was sure this was one of the spurious "Lincoln quotes" penned by Chiniquy. I am not familiar with any credible Lincoln writings or quotes in which he blamed any foreign influences for the problem of slavery and Civil War. He felt these were of America's own making. |
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03-07-2015, 02:23 PM
Post: #99
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RE: John Surratt's real parents?
Thanks for being in doubt.Doubt is always ok with me!
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03-07-2015, 02:48 PM
Post: #100
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RE: John Surratt's real parents?
(03-07-2015 09:59 AM)Gene C Wrote: Ouch. I think Stanton provided the strong leadership and direction the country needed immediately following Lincoln's assassination. I can't think of a better person to be in control at that time. It certainly wasn't Johnson. I agree Gene. 150 years later it is easy to criticize Stanton and focus on missteps he may have made. But he was operating in uncharted territory. How well could anyone really have been expected to do in the chaotic time following the assassination? As has been discussed in another thread, in 1865 there were rules for presidential succession if a President died but not for what occured in a case of presidential incapacitation. With Lincoln clinging to life (not yet dead, but unresponsive) Johnson could not be sworn in as President. It would have made sense to people of the time that a member of the cabinet would be in charge so as to follow through with the President's policies until such time as he recovered or until he died and the vice president was sworn in as President. Vice-presidents were not really involved in governing at that time and were almost an afterthought. Seward would have been the obvious choice to assume control but he too was incapacitated. Someone had to step up to the plate and lead, and Stanton did. Even after Johnson was sworn in, he, by choice, seems to have deferred to Stanton regarding military and security matters. It doesn't seem like an overt power grab on Stanton's part (not that he minded wielding power I'm sure.) |
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03-07-2015, 03:37 PM
Post: #101
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RE: John Surratt's real parents?
Even old Southern me is a defender of Stanton. He was the logical one (even if Seward had been able) to take the reins because he held a lot of sway with the military - the best means for holding things under control. I really don't care about his personality quirks. He served this country well in its time of need -- certainly much better than some very high officials today are doing.
As for Booth's motives for killing Mr. Lincoln, I understand those too. I would gladly take a derringer to Jihadi John and his ilk today. And I guess that puts me on a hit list somewhere. Of course, I'm going to have to take lessons from Joe Beckert and Wes Harris first because I have never held a real gun in my hands in my entire life. |
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03-07-2015, 05:26 PM
Post: #102
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RE: John Surratt's real parents?
I absolutely agree with Gene, Scott, and Laurie on Stanton!
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03-07-2015, 06:00 PM
Post: #103
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RE: John Surratt's real parents?
(03-07-2015 02:18 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote: [Would abduction have been acceptable from the religious (Catholic) point of view in your opinion?]// quote Toia, The main thesis of "Come Retribution", by William Tidwell, James Hall & David Gaddy, is that Lincoln was killed as retribution for the two failed attempts on the life of Jefferson Davis and that Booth served as the blunt end of the operation. Rick |
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03-07-2015, 06:18 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-07-2015 07:20 PM by Eva Elisabeth.)
Post: #104
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RE: John Surratt's real parents?
(03-07-2015 02:18 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote: Would abduction have been acceptable from the religious (Catholic) point of view in your opinion? - Thanks, Toia, I think so, too. Thus and re: "Father I wish to say something," "Well what is it my child?" "That I am innocent" - innocence to me from the religious as well as from the legal point of view (as pointed out by Ed Steers in "Blood on the Moon") would mean total innocence, i.e. that she didn't know anything and believed the shooting irons and field glasses were intended for fox hunting. I can hardly believe that (she wouldn't have needed Weichmann praying for her intentions) and even though Laurie recalled she added to the "I did not know what they intended to do" this doesn't necessarily mean she knew nothing - it could just mean she didn't know of the change from abduction to assassination (but abduction would have been a senseless action and risk after Appomattox - why still support such?) Now, if she knew of or sensed more than nothing - whether abduction or assassination - she must have been aware of that those shooting irons were intended to be used for killing human life during the exercise of that political plot, and the actual use of them would be most likely since the (whatever) action was against the government (that she must have somehow sensed, too). By delivering the message and field glass IMO she actively participated in executing the plot and "undersigned" her agreement, thus to facing the respective punishment the law provided. A German proverb says "Ignorance doesn't prevent from punishment". Even if she was naive, sorry, she must have been aware that such is not a children's game and men have been hanged for less. So I think even if she believed in "only" abduction going on she was still guilty - ESPECIALLY if she was such a devout beliver (a sin and crime, as Toia, too, said). As I see it, a devout believer wouldn't have assisted (even if "only" by delivering messages or field glasses) in ANY plot and crime that uses weapons against humans or even threatens to do or that deprives a person of his/her liberty . And thus I also think (assume) she was as guilty as Atzerodt who strenuously expressed he did not want to participate in murder (as she might have to) but saw himself sort of in Booth's hands and was too cowardish to go to the police and confess instead of drinking, which would most likely have saved him (and Lincoln). [Just to add - for all goes "from what I know/have learned so far". Also that I find her guilty and responsible for her fate (i.e. that she must have been aware of the possibility fatal punishment the law provides doesn't mean that I personally think it was right to execute her (as to execute anyone- I've already said since I highly respect the Sixth Commandment I am opposed to the death penalty) - but that is an entirely different topic.] |
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03-07-2015, 06:21 PM
Post: #105
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RE: John Surratt's real parents?
In case you haven't guessed it, I am someone who likes to have the last word in an argument. John Wilkes Booth intended to have the last shot in a horrible war...
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