John Surratt's real parents?

[LincolnToddFan]

Hi Tom,

Did Mary even KNOW that AL was going to Ford's that night? Even JWB did not find out till the afternoon of Apr 14.... Good Friday. Mary had spent most of the day in church, no?

I think the released Confederate prisoners would have probably tried to go to Mexico or South America. Some CSA officials did try to emigrate there after the war. But I'm not sure the release of CSA prisoners would have been the main goal after Apr 14...as Eva pointed out a prisoner exchange at that point was moot. The point would have been get better terms for the South...to negotiate for independence even at that late hour. To nullify Appomattox.



Hi Eva-

I want to address the issue of the Catholic sacrament of Penance. Like so many other teachings of Catholicism, it is so grossly misunderstood even within the Church that all I can do is shake my head in disbelief. No one who approaches the sacrament believing that it's a license to commit any sin over and over because they are confident of forgiveness is truly penitent, which means they are guilty of presumption. The priest always advises the penitent person that the person must TRULY be intending to reject the sin involved. In the last line of the Act of Contrition we are required to say "[i]I firmly resolve, with the help of your Grace, to confess my sins, to do penance, and to SIN NO MORE.[/i]" So any one who makes that vow within the confessional without truly meaning it is in fact not forgiven at all, and is putting his/her own soul in mortal danger by presumption of God's mercy.

Sorry for the theology rant, but as a practicing and believing Catholic it makes me crazy when Catholics like the ones Eva spoke of deliberately misrepresent the Faith to others. Catholics have enough PR problems as it is!

I completely agree with Laurie. Surratt was not a casual Catholic. Unlike Christians who fall for their own propaganda and sin in God's name, Surratt knew that premeditated, cold blooded murder-even in the commission of what she believed was a valid cause- was unlikely to be winked at in the confessional...let alone by God. One of the reasons I have questioned her(murder conspiracy) guilt is certain statements made by Father Wiggett, Surratt's confessor, after the execution. He administered the Last Rites and heard her confession. She not only re-affirmed her innocence, she swore it upon the Host(the Eucharist). If she was lying, one of her final acts on Earth was blasphemy, something a deeply religious person facing eternity is highly unlikely to do. Without violating the seal of the confessional, Wiggett always insisted upon Surratt's innocence instead of simply remaining silent-as he likely would have done if she'd admitted culpability.

[Thomas Thorne]

Dear LincolnToddFan

I always thought JWB learned of Lincoln's appearance at Fords in the late AM. he went to the boardinghouse in the early PM and met with Mary Surratt who had Weichmann drive to the tavern afterward and instructed Lloyd to have the weapons ready for pick up on 4/15. We all know about her inquiries about the sentries,her nervousness and interesting statements to Weichmann.

The shooting irons were carried to Surrattsville after the abortive kidnapping. That they would not be available to the conspirators until the early hours of 4/15 tells me no kidnapping was planned for the evening of 4/14. The assassin JWB ,calculating on the element of surprise, would need far fewer weapons than the kidnapper JWB. The former surprised his target,jumped to the stage and ran off before his stunned audience had time to react. He galloped off,not heavily incumbered by weapons. If he ran into a patrol ,not having carbines would be a positive advantage as the lack of them would allay suspicion until the hue and cry was raised at which time he would have the carbines but would be many miles away.

The kidnapper Booth would need many people to capture Lincoln. They would have to be much more heavily armed to overcome the victim and cower the spectators than a lone assassin. Compared to the butcher and bolt murder,an abduction would be agonizingly slow. Lincoln would have to be bound,taken from the box, removed from the theater in which many spectators might have risked their lives to prevent the crime. A trussed up Lincoln put on a horse or carriage would prevent Booth from galloping away as he did after the shooting. In the street the gang would encounter mobs of Washingtonians eager to stop them.

So Mary Surratt knew at the very least that the shooting irons would not be available to JWB on 4/14. As I believe she might have had the highest IQ of the conspirators, tyrannicide,and not abduction was on her mind that nite.

You also said Confederate prisoners exchanged for Lincoln could go to Mexico and other parts of Latin America. As the goal of the Booth Kidnap Plot was to release POW's to rejoin the Confederate Army,they could hardly do so if they were thousands of miles away. Latin America was only a place of exile for defeated Confederates who could not bear living under Yankee rule.
Tom
PS For a good movie about exiled Confederates see "The Undefeated" with Rock Hudson and John Wayne. Rock has an excellent pseudoSouthern accent.

[HerbS]

I have also read Kate Larson's book,and have a signed copy on my book shelf.It's hard to believe that Mary Surratt was not guility.There is enough evidence to show her guilt,and her"slick"son-John ,along with the rest of the conspirators.Who knows who else was involved with this dastardly act?

[RJNorton]

(03-04-2015 10:08 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  So you feel that the Larsen book does indeed provide a smoking gun for Mary's guilt on knowing that a murder was planned for that night?

Hi Toia. Yes. Obviously no one can know for certain, but personally I find his stopping at the boardinghouse on his way to Ford's to be highly suspicious. She knew her son was not in Washington, and John Surratt was an integral part of the kidnapping/capture plan. Would Booth really attempt to kidnap Lincoln without the help of John S? IMO, that seems unlikely. To me, it seems possible she knew plans had changed. I actually think Booth told her earlier in the day, and if not, at the private 9 P.M. meeting.

Toia, I admit I am just speculating, of course. Both Smoot and Weichmann said she was extremely nervous after Booth left at 9. I think it's pretty obvious he told her something that made her extremely nervous. I think it's possible he told her he was going to assassinate the President that night.

If I am right in this speculation then she was in a similar position as Atzerodt. Both could have possibly saved President Lincoln's life if they had gone to the police immediately. Police/soldiers could have been immediately dispatched to Ford's. I do not know if she had any knowledge of Powell, but Atzerodt did. Atzerodt could probably have prevented both attacks if he had gone to the police in time.

[Wild Bill]

What was it Lewis Powell said? "You haven't got the half of them"

[Gene C]

Booth like to exaggerate the number of people involved to keep his little band of conspirators together, and Paine believed him.
I think if others were involved, he wouldn't have used George Atzerodt, and he would have acted earlier. It's one thing to say your involved, it's another thing to be willing to participate. Even Arnold and O'Laughlen were smart enough to bail out.

[L Verge]

I don't know where to start, so I'm going to play devil's advocate. Why did Mrs. Surratt have to know about the plan to murder? Booth could have easily told her that he was leaving town that night and would pick up the weapons at the old tavern, and BTW, carry this package (i.e. field glasses) out there for me when you go this afternoon, please.

The first such message about needing the weapons soon was delivered to Lloyd on the afternoon of April 11 -- before Booth heard Lincoln speak that night and quickly changed his plans. Also, Lloyd testified that Mrs. Surratt told him on the 14th that there would be parties to call for them that night. Those parties arrived (according to Lloyd) just as the clock was striking midnight. Therefore, we cannot set the time at 4/15. Booth could have reached the tavern before the stroke of midnight on the 14th.

As for the purpose of gaining a prisoner exchange, that intent was kicked down a notch when Grant ordered the return of prisoner releases. I think Booth's plan for that issue was to get those Southern prisoners released in order to get them necessary food, supplies, and life-saving help. The treatment that most of them had received from their Union captors had weakened them so badly that (I think) they would have been useless on the battlefield. Opening "Hellmira" might get those men into Canada or more sympathetic portions of the Northwest where Copperheads were more supportive. Prisoners at Point Lookout in Maryland could fade into the Southern populace of the lower counties of that state. Remember the scene in D.C. where Booth saw a chain gang of Confederates being marched through the streets? I believe his comment was, "My god, I no longer have a country." That thought only drove him to seek worse revenge on the man that he blamed for the suffering.

I also agree with Bill about considering the fact that "you haven't got the half of them." We need to look farther than the tip of our nose and consider who else could be included in that statement besides the unlucky few of the real action team - who happened to be the ones closest by when Booth decided to strike.

How about considering Mudd, Harbin, Dr. Dent, Tom Jones, Samuel Cox, and others on the sidelines for aid and comfort along the escape route. Had Herold alerted them to something big coming soon while in the area on April 13? Had Booth contacted the Canadian cohorts? Was there a New York crowd? Was he still counting on help from Benjamin and Davis (or Breckinridge) even though the CSA was on the run?

I have spent nearly sixty years of my life trying to figure out all the ins and outs and angles of Booth's intent, Mary Surratt's role, etc.; and I still cannot answer things precisely. The Lincoln conspiracy is a giant puzzle of half-known facts, trying to place ourselves in the role of certain people, guessing games, speculation, and fabrication.

I just cannot bring myself to understand how Booth could place so much faith in Mrs. Surratt as to make her #2 in the planning process -- especially with her living in a house filled with so many young women who could eavesdrop, gossip, giggle, whatever, and a seemingly weak Weichmann that you definitely didn't trust to be privy to anything. And, how do we know that Weichmann told the truth about Mrs. Surratt wanting prayers for her intentions? While I tend to believe most of what Weichmann said, I also see him as practicing the first law of survival - self-preservation. He intimated later that the authorities pressured him to go against Mary Surratt. That would indicate to me that he was given the opportunity to lie.

Yes, I think Mrs. Surratt was intelligent and a secessionist. But, I also think she was naive and that she also would do Booth's bidding in order to protect her children (one of which was in a very precarious position with his aid to the Confederacy). I also don't see Booth (a user of women) letting her in on the deepest recesses of his thinking and planning.

Oh, lord - now I have a migraine! Too much thinking... I'm also watching snow pile up outside my window and cursing every inch of it!

[HerbS]

As I sit here in my warm apt.and it's cold and snowy outside in the Copperhead area of New York State[Finger Lakes Region] during the Civil War.I agree with Laurie with some of the motives of Booth.He was a very slick, smooth personality,but was Mary Suratt really conned?Thoughts.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Just want to add many thanks to Roger, Toia, and Herb, for bringing up and discussing the Kate Larsen book - I ordered because the posts here made me curious, and I'm looking forward to read it. I hadn't known of the book before.

[HerbS]

Her book is a"must"read! I could not put it down.She is one of best authors I have ever read!

[L Verge]

(03-05-2015 03:29 PM)HerbS Wrote:  As I sit here in my warm apt.and it's cold and snowy outside in the Copperhead area of New York State[Finger Lakes Region] during the Civil War.I agree with Laurie with some of the motives of Booth.He was a very slick, smooth personality,but was Mary Suratt really conned?Thoughts.

I am not sure that I would use the word "conned." My thoughts are that she was not totally "informed" as to the depth of the schemes and the possible repercussions. She did not have the benefits of mystery novels, crime shows, and CSI investigations to train her for what to expect. And, she was following a mother's instinct to support and protect a son who was fighting for a cause that she, herself, believed in.

Was she duped by Booth? Perhaps, but I prefer to think that she was naive enough to not think ahead to what repercussions might affect her directly. If Powell had not been clumsy enough to show up at her door at the most inopportune time, do you think Mrs. Surratt might have fully escaped detection? I think that could well have been the case -- and I wouldn't have my job 150 years later...

[Thomas Thorne]

(03-05-2015 01:47 PM)L Verge Wrote:  I don't know where to start, so I'm going to play devil's advocate. Why did Mrs. Surratt have to know about the plan to murder? Booth could have easily told her that he was leaving town that night and would pick up the weapons at the old tavern, and BTW, carry this package (i.e. field glasses) out there for me when you go this afternoon, please.

The first such message about needing the weapons soon was delivered to Lloyd on the afternoon of April 11 -- before Booth heard Lincoln speak that night and quickly changed his plans. Also, Lloyd testified that Mrs. Surratt told him on the 14th that there would be parties to call for them that night. Those parties arrived (according to Lloyd) just as the clock was striking midnight. Therefore, we cannot set the time at 4/15. Booth could have reached the tavern before the stroke of midnight on the 14th.

As for the purpose of gaining a prisoner exchange, that intent was kicked down a notch when Grant ordered the return of prisoner releases. I think Booth's plan for that issue was to get those Southern prisoners released in order to get them necessary food, supplies, and life-saving help. The treatment that most of them had received from their Union captors had weakened them so badly that (I think) they would have been useless on the battlefield. Opening "Hellmira" might get those men into Canada or more sympathetic portions of the Northwest where Copperheads were more supportive. Prisoners at Point Lookout in Maryland could fade into the Southern populace of the lower counties of that state. Remember the scene in D.C. where Booth saw a chain gang of Confederates being marched through the streets? I believe his comment was, "My god, I no longer have a country." That thought only drove him to seek worse revenge on the man that he blamed for the suffering.

I also agree with Bill about considering the fact that "you haven't got the half of them." We need to look farther than the tip of our nose and consider who else could be included in that statement besides the unlucky few of the real action team - who happened to be the ones closest by when Booth decided to strike.

How about considering Mudd, Harbin, Dr. Dent, Tom Jones, Samuel Cox, and others on the sidelines for aid and comfort along the escape route. Had Herold alerted them to something big coming soon while in the area on April 13? Had Booth contacted the Canadian cohorts? Was there a New York crowd? Was he still counting on help from Benjamin and Davis (or Breckinridge) even though the CSA was on the run?

I have spent nearly sixty years of my life trying to figure out all the ins and outs and angles of Booth's intent, Mary Surratt's role, etc.; and I still cannot answer things precisely. The Lincoln conspiracy is a giant puzzle of half-known facts, trying to place ourselves in the role of certain people, guessing games, speculation, and fabrication.

I just cannot bring myself to understand how Booth could place so much faith in Mrs. Surratt as to make her #2 in the planning process -- especially with her living in a house filled with so many young women who could eavesdrop, gossip, giggle, whatever, and a seemingly weak Weichmann that you definitely didn't trust to be privy to anything. And, how do we know that Weichmann told the truth about Mrs. Surratt wanting prayers for her intentions? While I tend to believe most of what Weichmann said, I also see him as practicing the first law of survival - self-preservation. He intimated later that the authorities pressured him to go against Mary Surratt. That would indicate to me that he was given the opportunity to lie.

Yes, I think Mrs. Surratt was intelligent and a secessionist. But, I also think she was naive and that she also would do Booth's bidding in order to protect her children (one of which was in a very precarious position with his aid to the Confederacy). I also don't see Booth (a user of women) letting her in on the deepest recesses of his thinking and planning.

Oh, lord - now I have a migraine! Too much thinking... I'm also watching snow pile up outside my window and cursing every inch of it!

It is wonderful to see Laurie Verge in full battle array. She has the supreme virtue of making you think and question your own beliefs
Tom

[Eva Elisabeth]

(03-05-2015 01:47 PM)L Verge Wrote:  As for the purpose of gaining a prisoner exchange, that intent was kicked down a notch when Grant ordered the return of prisoner releases. I think Booth's plan for that issue was to get those Southern prisoners released...

I've tried to ask this before - can one of those who believe on April 14, Mary Surratt still believed abduction was to be going on please explain to me what she might have believed what was to be achieved therewith regarding the intent (and sense) had become obsolete by that date?

[RJNorton]

(03-06-2015 02:03 AM)Thomas Thorne Wrote:  It is wonderful to see Laurie Verge in full battle array. She has the supreme virtue of making you think and question your own beliefs

Laurie, I second Tom and cannot thank you enough!

(03-05-2015 08:36 PM)L Verge Wrote:  If Powell had not been clumsy enough to show up at her door at the most inopportune time, do you think Mrs. Surratt might have fully escaped detection? I think that could well have been the case --

My question, though, concerns the testimony of both Louis Weichmann and John Lloyd. As I understand it the testimonies of Lloyd (especially) plus Weichmann were the two main factors for Mary being found guilty by the commissioners. Wouldn't their testimonies have been exactly the same even if Powell had been captured by other means? Wasn't Mary under arrest on April 17th regardless of Powell's coming?

[BettyO]

Quote:My question, though, concerns the testimony of both Louis Weichmann and John Lloyd. As I understand it the testimonies of Lloyd (especially) plus Weichmann were the two main factors for Mary being found guilty by the commissioners. Wouldn't their testimonies have been exactly the same even if Powell had been captured by other means? Wasn't Mary under arrest on April 17th regardless of Powell's coming?

I agree, Roger. The testimony of both Weichmann and Lloyd were spot on at pointing fingers at Mary, regardless of Powell's desperately bad timing. Officers were there to "arrest" Mary and her household at this time. She had been on the radar since their first intrusion on the 15th of April when Det. Clevoe had shaken Lincoln's blood-stained tie under Weichmann's nose and literally scared him to death. This being two days before the arrest on the 17th. Officials were looking for son, John and I believe that the idea was to take her down for questioning again and this time lock her and others up in the Old Capitol to see if JHS would come out of hiding to aid "Mom." Powell was just the icing on the cake at this time - certainly didn't help any!