John Surratt's real parents?

[Eva Elisabeth]

I hope someone can explain the following to me. Mary knew something, a plot, was going on for which in the evening shooting irons would be needed, and I cannot imagine she had no idea that they were intended for use "against" the head(s) of the government, for whatever sheme - abduction or murder. The high possibility that actual use might have been necessary in some situation must have been aware to her. In carrying these field glasses and announcing the need of the weapons she actively assisted in the plot and undersigned her agreement to possible murder (use of the shooting irons). IMO. So, why did she agree to do this if she wasn't "up to" face the punishment the law provides for such a severe crime?

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I'd also like to try this possibly stupid question again in hope someone can explain.to me:

(03-02-2015 06:27 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  If Mary believed the kidnapping plot was going on - how would JWB have explained to her why she would have had to bring the "equipment" down? Since a carriage was intended to be used to carry out this plan why not storing the field glasses etc. inside?

[RJNorton]

Eva, I for one, feel your insight is highly perceptive. As I said before, I have been "open" to her knowing the kidnapping plan had been dropped since around c.2009 when Kate Larson's book came out. Prior to that I was totally convinced she knew nothing of the change to assassination.

I do believe it was Booth stopping at her house at about 9:00 P.M. April 14th to converse with Mary Surratt. I would absolutely love to be able to overhear what was said. He talked privately with Mary less than two hours before shooting the President. What did they say to each other?

[HerbS]

I think Mary knew full well of the entire assassination plot from the beginning of the conspiracy.She and her entire family were guility.Booth was a"wack job",but, maybe Asia tried to cover her own butt!Asia did a good job proclaiming her innocence of her brother.

[L Verge]

(03-03-2015 08:08 AM)Gene C Wrote:  It would be interesting to know Mary's motives. Surely she was aware her son was a courier for the south, and that some of her overnight guest were couriers/spies too. How involved was she before the family moved to Washington? Did she become more involved in order to help keep an eye on her son's activities? Would she have ever become involved if it weren't for John? Or did he become involved because of her example?

Are there any notes or transcripts of the police interviews with Anna? Did Anna play any role in her brothers trial?

There is no doubt that Mary Surratt was supportive of the Confederacy. She was raised in a slave-holding family (her father owning slaves and also being an overseer to those owned by the powerful Calverts). She married into a slave-holding family, with her mother-in-law giving each grandchild their own slave.

Her husband was a rabid secessionist; her eldest son a soldier in the CSA; her youngest a courier for the Confederate government. There are also Confederate papers showing the Surratt Tavern listed as a Confederate safehouse through the last quarter of 1864 - two years after her husband's death. That same report mentions other towns that are safe - only a specific building is mentioned in the case of Surratt Tavern.

I just can't make the leap to her knowing about the change in plans, mainly because of her deep Catholic feelings. That would have been one hell of a confession she would have to make the next time she entered the confessional!

And, since we all tend to think that the plan did not definitely change to murder until April 11, it could only be Booth who could have told her. She did not have access to any of the other conspirators at that point - including her own son. Booth would have had to place a lot of faith in Mrs. Surratt to divulge the plans. Did he really trust her that much, knowing that she was the one most likely to be rounded up first by the authorities?

I've said this a lot of times, but I frankly like having the mystery unsolved. It's good for business at the museum!

[HerbS]

The entire topic is one big mystery,and I think it will go unsolved for many years!Laurie,good point about Booth not placing his trust in Mary!

[Eva Elisabeth]

Wouldn't she have wondered for what reason an abduction at that point in time when the intended prisoner release had become obsolete?

[HerbS]

She might have wondered.Did she really care about it at that time?We may never know what she did think about at that time!

[Eva Elisabeth]

(03-03-2015 03:02 PM)L Verge Wrote:  I just can't make the leap to her knowing about the change in plans, mainly because of her deep Catholic feelings. That would have been one hell of a confession she would have to make the next time she entered the confessional!

I disagree her Catholic confession would have kept her back from joining murder plans - right the opposite! How many wars have been (and currently are) fought "in God's name" and justified as exercising His higher will? It's much easier to kill and sooth oneself with such an excuse, feeling a tool that isn't responsible for the decision.

The following is my personal experience and by no means intended as a general statement about Catholics or believers. I grew up in an area where almost everyone and also public life (exercising traditions, public holidays, etc.) is deeply Catholic, and many considered themselves devout believers. Still it didn't prevent several of the faithful flock (as it happens within all denominations and faithful flocks) from carrying on with other ladies or gentlemen than their spouses. Being Lutheran due to my East Prussian mother (and since Lutheran views on such topics are less strict) I once asked one gentleman who did quite freely, although I knew him to consider himself a devoted Catholic, how such a lifestyle would match with his beliefs. His reply: "I confess afterwards and God will forgive." And he believed in this. Mary Surratt might have believed in God's forgiveness, too.

Also I can well imagine she fell under JWB's womanizing spell which might have added to a possible willingness to be supportive.

[HerbS]

Laurie,I agree with your theory about Mary and her faith.I also think Booth used his best womanizing skills to bring her on board with his evil plans.I think that Catholicism is very complex,and I question the entire theory of confession and it's use of guilt and fear.I do not mean to offend anyone with my opinions!

[RJNorton]

(03-04-2015 08:57 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Also I can well imagine she fell under JWB's womanizing spell which might have added to a possible willingness to be supportive.

Eva, I have wondered about this, too, although I do not believe I have ever read about this in a book. I think it's at least possible, but this is something that I suppose could be argued either way. Like so many Lincoln assassination mysteries this is something we can probably never know. It's an interesting, thought-provoking point, Eva.

[Linda Anderson]

(03-04-2015 08:57 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  

(03-03-2015 03:02 PM)L Verge Wrote:  I just can't make the leap to her knowing about the change in plans, mainly because of her deep Catholic feelings. That would have been one hell of a confession she would have to make the next time she entered the confessional!

I disagree her Catholic confession would have kept her back from joining murder plans - right the opposite! How many wars have been (and currently are) fought "in God's name" and justified as exercising His higher will? It's much easier kill and sooth oneself with such an excuse, feeling a tool that isn't responsible for the decision.

The following is my personal experience and by no means intended as a general statement about Catholics or believers. I grew up in an area where almost everyone and also public life (exercising traditions, public holidays, etc.) is deeply Catholic, and many considered themselves devout believers. Still it didn't prevent several of the faithful flock (as it happens within all denominations and faithful flocks) from carrying on with other ladies or gentlemen than their spouses. Being Lutheran due to my East Prussian mother (and since Lutheran views on such topics are less strict) I once asked one gentleman who did quite freely, although I knew him to consider himself a devoted Catholic, how such a lifestyle would match with his beliefs. His reply: "I confess afterwards and God will forgive." And he believed in this. Mary Surratt might have believed in God's forgiveness, too.

Also I can well imagine she fell under JWB's womanizing spell which might have added to a possible willingness to be supportive.

I don't think that Mary thought she was committing a sin in helping Lincoln to be kidnapped or killed so there would have been no need for her to ask for forgiveness. She was probably praying to God to help the conspirators when Weichmann saw her praying the Rosary Friday night.

People do approach Catholicism in different ways but after Jesus forgave the woman who was caught in adultery, he told her to "go and sin no more," not to do whatever she wanted as long as she came back next week for another absolution.

[Eva Elisabeth]

(03-04-2015 09:45 AM)Linda Anderson Wrote:  I don't think that Mary thought she was committing a sin in helping Lincoln to be kidnapped or killed so there would have been no need for her to ask for forgiveness. She was probably praying to God to help the conspirators when Weichmann saw her praying the Rosary Friday night.

This I could imagine, too. Maybe she was a little insecure about sin or not sin, her request to "pray for my intentions" would hint at such, at least to me it is a strong hint that she knew a lot.

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Another question - wouldn't it have been better for her to back Powell's statement he came to dig a gutter? Since he had visited her house previously (which was safe to be found out) she could have claimed just having heard of his manual skills in superficial small talk.

[STS Lincolnite]

(03-04-2015 09:45 AM)Linda Anderson Wrote:  I don't think that Mary thought she was committing a sin in helping Lincoln to be kidnapped or killed so there would have been no need for her to ask for forgiveness. She was probably praying to God to help the conspirators when Weichmann saw her praying the Rosary Friday night.

People do approach Catholicism in different ways but after Jesus forgave the woman who was caught in adultery, he told her to "go and sin no more," not to do whatever she wanted as long as she came back next week for another absolution.

I think this is right on. I believe Mary was praying for the success of Booth and company (herself included), not for her own forgiveness. In her eyes, she was supporting the morally right position and had nothing to be forgiven for.

[LincolnToddFan]

Oh, I definitely don't think she was praying for forgiveness...by her "intentions" she was referring to the success of the conspirators for what she believed they were going to accomplish...a dramatic reversal of fortune for the Cause. I remember reading that she was overhead grumbling about all the celebrating that was being done in the streets of the capital after the fall of Richmond. She is reported to have condemned these "proud and wicked people" or something along those lines, and prophesied that their joy would be turning to grief very soon.

[I believe Lincoln's actions would have been governed by whether or not he was actually kidnapped and how many Union soldiers and others were killed or wounded in the process of preventing his abduction or rescuing him.

I can not conceive of Lincoln signing Mary Surratt's death warrant but I don't believe he would have actually pardoned her if that is construed to mean he would have quashed a guilty verdict.]// quote

Tom, I quite agree!

[Toia and Laurie, until I read Kate Larson's book I would have agreed 100% with both of you. Now if someone asks me if she knew of Booth's change of plan I would say, "I don't know, but I am open to the possibility." My question is, I guess, a geography question as I do not know the area well]//

Hi Roger,

I have Kate Larson's book stashed away somewhere. I read it quite awhile ago and want to read it again...but I can't remember where I put it!

So you feel that the Larsen book does indeed provide a smoking gun for Mary's guilt on knowing that a murder was planned for that night? I don't remember the particulars of the change of route info, but I always assumed that she knew the "shooting irons" were in fact weapons that the conspirators felt would be needed to successfully accomplish the kidnapping. She knew -or assumed-that AL would be surrounded by soldiers armed to the teeth, as he was when he entered Richmond.

[Thomas Thorne]

I have too much respect for Mary Surratt's intellect to think she believed JWB was going to kidnap Lincoln from a crowded theater with the few resources at his disposal and try to move him thru packed Washington streets on 4/14/65..

Any kidnapping attempt would best be done while AL was traveling thru the countryside with his customary insouciance about security.

It's interesting how little effort JWB spent on the kidnapping enterprise after its collapse in March. I wonder if the "New York crowd" really only consisted of a beautiful filly he had stashed away in New York.

Unlike Michael Kaufman, who I believe thought the kidnap scheme was a lure to recruit assassins, I accept the legitimacy of the kidnapping plot but note how often Booth angrily on the spur of the moment tried to convert it into an assassination.

And where actually would Confederate prisoners exchanged for Lincoln after 4/14/65 be released to? Who would provide them with food,uniforms and equipment? Most of the principle Southern cities had been captured by the time of the assassination. A country whose capital resided in Jefferson Davis"s saddlebags was on life support and none felt greater grief for its impending demise than John Wilkes Booth. His actions that Easter week bespoke an expectation of disaster and not faith in victory.
Tom